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Well ideally there should be two separate codexes:

Traitor Legions, which is the ones from the Heresy that don't have as many Imperial things but more warp-infused things, probably more mutated (with some exceptions) and more daemonic war engine things.

Chaos Renegades: Newer chapters who might get some limited access to imperial things, because they are not in the Eye of Terror for millennia, but have less daemonic things. Model wise they'd end up looking closer to regular marines, but more weathered and with scraped off imperial markings.

I'm in agreement with the posters saying to keep it simpler. Start with a basis in the older style power armors, and have decorations that could have been added to that. Etched in chaos symbols, trophies, the occasional horn or spike, mismatched helmets compared to the mark of the power armor, but something that's recognizable as Astartes Heresy era armor. Add in some bits to show warped armor and mutated flesh, could be arm, leg, chest and pauldron options.

But I'm not a fan of the dark vengance and new death guard LotR cos-player look. I want to see a chaos army and think "TRAITORS!", not "NERD!".

Edit: I just went back and looked at the new Death Guard models again. Forget what I said earlier about them. While I'd actually like less mutations on each one, they do look like warped "historical" armor, rather then spikey McSpikespike.

They main reason why Chaos marines need to look super ornate (besides looking amazing) is because Space Marines already cover the simplified look.

You can buy a box of Space Marines and make them look run down and old. You can't add crazy gold trim and mutations to it as easily. This can satisfy players that want a more toned down look to their chaos marines.

Keep Chaos Baroque!!!

More skulls, more trim, more mutations, more everything. More is always better.

Yeah, I don't know why people want Chaos that is basically HH's chaos with some daemon-engine in the army list.
For that you have HH's plastics.

I agree that the Raptor kit should be the basis for the "basic" Chaos Marines, with the DV Chaos Lord and Chosen for the more "elite" and corrupted style.

If you want "renegade" chapters just use normal SM kits, and mix them with some Chaos part here and there.

Make sure you get the Mk.V backpacks with the side vents mounted on struts further out from the body, and the horned helmets with the arrow down the middle in there, and you're probably okay.

Also the dragon-mouth muzzles on the tank guns. Those are essential.

Iron warriors maybe, black legion not quite.

The black legion is perhaps the biggest recruitment center among the legions of old, brining marines of all flavors into the service of abbadon.
If any, black legion should be the most diverse and mixed in terms of what gear they are packing. anything from original heresy era, to relatively new mark VIII-and mostly modified to suit the chaos flavor (heck, old black legion supplement had multiple warbands WITHIN the black legion each rocking a different look)


Iron warriors also don't strike me as the type to stick to old armor actually, but the type to intentionally switch to newer gear whenever possible, by mostly looting I'd wager. they would likely also recruit quite a bit from those who used to have admech ties-and as such, probably have the newest gear on them.


TS and DG has their own unit pattens based on the old heresy era armor.

Everyone else is practically too fractured to maintain any coherent appearance. maybe EC and WE would form ranks once their primes show up, WB also might if that wimp returns-but I don't see NL getting organized, and alpha has a whole shtick of not looking the part, or looking multiple parts-you really can't expect a single given "dress code" from them. if they are even still a single group, kina hard to tell.

It doesn't matter "why" some people want simpler, less crazy Chaos Marines. Many of us just do.

Some of us just have a different expectation of what a cool Chaos Marine would be. Be it head-canon or whatever. I've never cared for over-styled stuff, ever. It doesn't add anything to a model for me, and it doesn't speak to the style of Chaos I see in my head for the 40K universe. To me the spikes and skulls and trophy racks are a little too "middle school bad guy". If you look at the original artwork it was all 1980's metal band inspired, and that's fine, but it never appealed to me.

I run my CSM as partially Nurgle-worshiping Renegades. If there was a genuine Renegade Astartes book I'd probably use that. My CSM even still call themselves a Chapter, as they mostly originate from the same Chapter originally.

My favourite thing is when people see my army on the table and say "Oh, cool, Chaos Space Marines". I use hardly an actual CSM models in my army.

An example of my basic CSM:


My home-brewed Plague Marines (because I can't stand the new GW ones):


An example of my Dark Apostle character:


Outside of the occasional Chaos backpack, there's not a ton to denote my guys as much more than wayward Renegades down on their luck and that's what it's supposed to be. I don't need tentacles, horns, whips, spikes or heaps of skulls to get the point across. I'm a little sad GW's styling is so far from my interests that I do need to often customize my own stuff, but that's fine. No worries. It saves me money since I ditched the Death Guard idea the second I saw the models.

 Elbows wrote:
It doesn't matter "why" some people want simpler, less crazy Chaos Marines. Many of us just do. [...]

Cut the rest to avoid over quoting, but this. So much this. My Word Bearers CSMs (those lucky few) are the Calth models with the modern Word Bearers logo on the shoulder pad instead of the heresy one. A couple of horns or spikes here or there just for variety, but for the most part they're just normal looking space marines. The Chosen, Possessed etc can be a bit more exciting, but the basic line troopers are just basic looking marines. I respect the hell out of people that convert and individualize every model in their army because that's their hobby. It's just not mine.

 Elbows wrote:
It doesn't matter "why" some people want simpler, less crazy Chaos Marines. Many of us just do.

Some of us just have a different expectation of what a cool Chaos Marine would be. Be it head-canon or whatever. I've never cared for over-styled stuff, ever. It doesn't add anything to a model for me, and it doesn't speak to the style of Chaos I see in my head for the 40K universe. To me the spikes and skulls and trophy racks are a little too "middle school bad guy". If you look at the original artwork it was all 1980's metal band inspired, and that's fine, but it never appealed to me.

I run my CSM as partially Nurgle-worshiping Renegades. If there was a genuine Renegade Astartes book I'd probably use that. My CSM even still call themselves a Chapter, as they mostly originate from the same Chapter originally.

My favourite thing is when people see my army on the table and say "Oh, cool, Chaos Space Marines". I use hardly an actual CSM models in my army.

An example of my basic CSM:

Spoiler:

My home-brewed Plague Marines (because I can't stand the new GW ones):

Spoiler:

An example of my Dark Apostle character:

Spoiler:

Outside of the occasional Chaos backpack, there's not a ton to denote my guys as much more than wayward Renegades down on their luck and that's what it's supposed to be. I don't need tentacles, horns, whips, spikes or heaps of skulls to get the point across. I'm a little sad GW's styling is so far from my interests that I do need to often customize my own stuff, but that's fine. No worries. It saves me money since I ditched the Death Guard idea the second I saw the models.

You and your models have hit on what chaos should be for so many of us.

For me, the problem with the chaos range is that the modifications are way too OTT. Nothing looks organic, its like they spent 10 thousand years in the warp accessorizing and jewelry making.

Id start with a base model with a mix of armour marks, nothing too scattered like missmatched legs, but something to show they have scavenged some of their armour.
In terms of modification- i think it would be cool to have a lot of etching in the armour- as if the marine has cut his new heraldry into his armour- would also give a good opportunity for painting effects. I think a mix of ragged loin cloths/capes/chain mail/skulls is also a cool addition that doesn't try too hard to look punk. A few limb mutation options would be cool but nothing tentacly.
Heads id include like 25 with a mix of bare and helmets- id take the full line of HH upgrade helmets, add some etching and a few with mutations. Same with the bare heads- give me scars, horns, chaos stars etched into skulls.

Make a kit that can be used to create close combat/standard/elite/mutated marines. Loads of options, loads of customisation. 5 and 10 model packs, sell for a little more than the intercessors/hellblasters (because of the versatility of the kit) and they will sell like hotcakes.

Process wrote:
For me, the problem with the chaos range is that the modifications are way too OTT. Nothing looks organic, its like they spent 10 thousand years in the warp accessorizing and jewelry making.

Id start with a base model with a mix of armour marks, nothing too scattered like missmatched legs, but something to show they have scavenged some of their armour.
In terms of modification- i think it would be cool to have a lot of etching in the armour- as if the marine has cut his new heraldry into his armour- would also give a good opportunity for painting effects. I think a mix of ragged loin cloths/capes/chain mail/skulls is also a cool addition that doesn't try too hard to look punk. A few limb mutation options would be cool but nothing tentacly.
Heads id include like 25 with a mix of bare and helmets- id take the full line of HH upgrade helmets, add some etching and a few with mutations. Same with the bare heads- give me scars, horns, chaos stars etched into skulls.

Make a kit that can be used to create close combat/standard/elite/mutated marines. Loads of options, loads of customisation. 5 and 10 model packs, sell for a little more than the intercessors/hellblasters (because of the versatility of the kit) and they will sell like hotcakes.

I really hope GW read this!

I don't mind the DV ones for like, champions and stuff but I think for your run of the mill traitor astartes they are a bit ott. Maybe would suit the EC though thinking about it.

Maybe for those of the LW a mish mash of different armour types for some showing that they have had to scrounge and make do with what they can find or what they have won. And Rivets!

I don't mind the current standard csm troop and think they do a fairly good job at representing Chaos troops, but less crotch skull please ...

I don't get this, if so many of you want toned down versions of traitor marines why not buy normal marines and add relevant shoulder pads or HH stuff?

Doesn't the stuff you're asking for already exist? GW aren't going to remake an existing product.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I don't get this, if so many of you want toned down versions of traitor marines why not buy normal marines and add relevant shoulder pads or HH stuff?

Doesn't the stuff you're asking for already exist? GW aren't going to remake an existing product.

Agreed. In all honest, and not trying to be dismissive at all, just buy normal marines and add whatever scuff you feel fits the bill. Just as many people enjoy the current look of CSM (myself included) and I think the best solution is to just buy HH marines or marines proper since those lines already exist. I think. Here I go talking without knowing. But at the rate marines sell i would be flabbergasted that a HH range does not exist. If it does not it should .

But in the end, im not sure there is a way to meet in the middle. But it doesnt matter in all honesty. GW is set to give chaos its own unique look apart from the loyalist and it has to attract "kids" and people like me "adult". I myself did not like the new PM models as much as the old. But I think that comes down to sculpt and not the design choices. But that is just my take, mileage may vary.

 Elbows wrote:
It doesn't matter "why" some people want simpler, less crazy Chaos Marines. Many of us just do.

Some of us just have a different expectation of what a cool Chaos Marine would be. Be it head-canon or whatever. I've never cared for over-styled stuff, ever. It doesn't add anything to a model for me, and it doesn't speak to the style of Chaos I see in my head for the 40K universe. To me the spikes and skulls and trophy racks are a little too "middle school bad guy". If you look at the original artwork it was all 1980's metal band inspired, and that's fine, but it never appealed to me.

I run my CSM as partially Nurgle-worshiping Renegades. If there was a genuine Renegade Astartes book I'd probably use that. My CSM even still call themselves a Chapter, as they mostly originate from the same Chapter originally.

My favourite thing is when people see my army on the table and say "Oh, cool, Chaos Space Marines". I use hardly an actual CSM models in my army.

An example of my basic CSM:

Spoiler:

My home-brewed Plague Marines (because I can't stand the new GW ones):

Spoiler:

An example of my Dark Apostle character:

Spoiler:

Outside of the occasional Chaos backpack, there's not a ton to denote my guys as much more than wayward Renegades down on their luck and that's what it's supposed to be. I don't need tentacles, horns, whips, spikes or heaps of skulls to get the point across. I'm a little sad GW's styling is so far from my interests that I do need to often customize my own stuff, but that's fine. No worries. It saves me money since I ditched the Death Guard idea the second I saw the models.

This is a very beautifull army, I have saw it in the past but is always nice to see it again. Of course this is a hobby about imagination so I never will be agaisn't a player doing what they want with his miniatures/army. But that doesn't mean I can disagree with an idea for the aesthetic of a faction.
For example, if somebody comes and tells me that Tau should be all grimdark, with skulls and cybernetical mutants, etc... or the contrary, all Gundam, with giant katanas in their mechas (And not just a special character), etc... I'll disagree with both of them for the general aesthetic of the plastic models of the faction. Of course, I would love to see Tau armies in those styles because I always love to see a imaginative and cool looking army.

For example I have a mixed Chaos Warband with a ton of small pocketed forces (19 Rubrics with their own Sorcerer called Ama-Zhulan and the 19 Magnifiques, a small force of Death Guard, etc...) all united around a giant Daemon Prince called Brutus the Small, an ex-Ultramarine. And the part of the Warband that are Iron Warriors (My Havocs, Vindicators, some marines and a Warpsmith, etc...) are basically 30 normal mk III HH's marines without any kind of modification.

I will say - for those mentioning the fact there should be a Renegades and a Legions codex as seperate books? 100% yes.

I will also state there needs to be a Dark Mechanicus codex as well to throw all the crazy Daemon Engines into and to let GW go nuts with the whole twisted fleshmetal theme.

Especially with the Keyword system existing as it does. But that's more a gripe about general design and rules.

I'm surprised that we didn't see an AoS style overall faction boon for people fielding mixed forces - just as you get stratagems, traits etc for fielding pure forces, why not at least a lesser version for the hybrid forces?

Imperium
Chaos
Tyranid
Aeldari

If we're lucky maybe they'll branch off and make Kroot a seperate army again to throw T'au into the faction bubble which only leaves Orks and Necrons feeling a bit strange but at the end of the day ...not that big.

I've always felt the biggest problem with CSM - in rules terms as well as aesthetically is that they are trying to fit multiple different themes into a single range and a single book.

Traitor Legions should be the Raptor style, semi-organic looking twisted older armour marks. And I feel it should freely be allowed to mix in the 30k stuff - which gives people the cleaner looks as options. I really don't like how the new Death Guard managed to not only be cut in a way that you can't mix them with the plastics from the CSM range, but also not the FW ranges or the 30k kits.

Renegades should be the newer armour marks - though to be honest I couldn't see them giving Renegades a range. Closest I could see would be the old SW 13th Company approach - telling you to convert by mixing Imperial SM kits with bits from the CSM kits, maybe a splash release that throws upgrade sprues etc in.

Dark Mechanicus is simple and could literally throw in a Chaos upgrade option for current Ad-Mech models, but would also let them unify the odd Fleshmetal things - the dinobots, the Obliterators and Mutilators, Defilers - just through them all together like that.

You could probably also do a Lost and the Damned book with 'traitor' guard, mutants and abhumans - literally letting GW flog the entire AoS Chaos range to us for some feral maruaders and the like.

And yes - we need the 4 God legions, even though Daemonkin is dead as a concept.

But it strikes me as odd that with how the Keyword system works...we don't have like, 2 Tiers of Stratagems/Traits/Etc.

1st Tier for just an overall faction - Imperium, Chaos, Aeldari etc.

2nd Tier being somewhat stronger for taking a specialised force - Heretic Astartes, Daemons, etc.

Really, and this is slightly offtopic, they should have had an actual drawback to doing mixed armies, instead of being able to take the best of both worlds; there is zero compelling reason to do a mono army. Chaos suffers a lot from that.

I want Chaos Marines to be weird, baroque and warped. Looking back, I think the old Rogue Trader era chaos marine models were pretty nice (at least conceptually, if not in execution.) They have this twisted biomechanical look that makes them look really distinct from the loyalists. I think something in that vein, but modernised might be a good direction.

This thread inspired me to draw a quick sketch depicting the direction I'd like the range to go:

Thanks Crimson. Thats how I think generic Chaos should look (The more powerfull the individual, the more warped and corrupted). They have been a ton of time in the warp, they should reflect it. Of course people is totally free to make their models as they want, and I will never critique anyone for doing whatever they want with their models.
BTW, thats a great drawing to be a "quick sketch"

 Crimson wrote:
I want Chaos Marines to be weird, baroque and warped. Looking back, I think the old Rogue Trader era chaos marine models were pretty nice (at least conceptually, if not in execution.) They have this twisted biomechanical look that makes them look really distinct from the loyalists. I think something in that vein, but modernised might be a good direction.

This thread inspired me to draw a quick sketch depicting the direction I'd like the range to go:

Yes. This. It's why I like the Raptors - I want Legion CSM at least to look...almost organic. Have the same silhouette as a Space Marine but closer inspection is more organic in appearance. The raptors are probably the closest the current range gets - any horns on their helmets grow out from them rather than being bolted on. There's ridges, spikes and growths. The surface isn't smooth. Even the shoulder pads are a bit more 'rough' and uneven in shape.