Things that should exist in the Lore but don’t...

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**godardc**

The Badab traitors are Chaos marines, now. You can't really reje ct the protection of the Emperor without, eventually, failing to Chaos, especially Marines who are nothing more than weapons and murderers, all day every days.
Remember: The Emperor Protects (your soul).
Maybe they weren't actively seeking Chaos before the war, but, eventually, they would have
I shouldn't have said radiations, sorry, think about the Reapers in MASS EFFECT. Just being near them get you endoctrinated, but your willpower protects you. A simple mortal exposed to the warp dies ou gets corrupted easily, where the great will of a marine unables him to go through hundred of battles.

I would like to see more Tau auxiliairies too.
More Guard regiments in plastic.
And Chaos xenos. That would be great.

**Spetulhu**

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:
But they aren't always this. Again, in the Badab War, they go against the Emperor and Imperium, without falling to Chaos, but just through deciding that they want more power. So they can go again the religious zealotry and decide just to go against it.

On the other hand, the marines on the wrong side in the Badab War actually saw themself as heroes fighting for their religious beliefs and rights against the evil bureaucracy that was trying to exert undue control over them. The leaders, especially Huron, might have become obsessed with increasing their power in unacceptable ways, but told the ordinary grunts that the Administratum was overstepping it's authority with demands on the noble Space Marines.

**DontEatRawHagis**

Genestealer Cult Marines. Why not?

**darkcloak**

Thanks for the reply Mr Morden!

I'm just glad no one mistook my intention and got the thread locked!

Cuz now we have an actual debate that could be considered philosophical. Would a Space Marine swear loyalty to a xenos? I think that in this setting anything is possible and if explained using human emotion and reasoning, because marines are still humans, then we could write a pretty evocative story about that. Just look at the conversation one idea has sparked!

A note about my story idea. Perhaps Lycaeus does become a marine, and perhaps the same rules apply to her as men, perhaps she loses her sexuality upon becoming a marine. Perhaps the moral of the story is that in a future where basic survival is only guaranteed by draconian measures and death is everywhere, gender has no meaning and those who can carry the torch of human survival must do so no matter the sacrifice or odds?

**Lance845**

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

Space Marines aren't always heavily indoctrinated fanatically religious zealots.

Yes they are. The process for making space marines includes...

Space Marines, of course, vary in intelligence as do other men, and their individual mental abilities vary to some degree, as their implants do not reshape their core neural architecture, though the hypnotherapy does act to "smooth out" many personality quirks. This indoctrination also includes psychological conditioning which is intended to reinforce a Space Marine's respect for authority and his willingness to follow orders regardless of his own desires, as well as to harden his mind to the corruptive temptations offered by Chaos. It is no exaggeration to say that many Astartes truly no longer know fear. At the end of this process, if all goes well, an adolescent human male will have been transformed into a superhuman Astartes.Yet, in many ways he will no longer truly be human, having sacrificed his own humanity so that he might protect that of others.

Space marines are all literally brainwashed. While yes, different chapters reinforce different traits and such to different extents, their zealot fanatical nature is a core aspect of all of them. It's why those that fall to chaos fall so hard. It's not just some guy getting pissed with their boss. Their whole known existence becomes shattered when their religion gets called into question.

But they aren't always this. Again, in the Badab War, they go against the Emperor and Imperium, without falling to Chaos, but just through deciding that they want more power. So they can go again the religious zealotry and decide just to go against it. Then, you have the Space Marines who don't act like religious zealots, and are willing to do things like make temporary alliances with Xenos or stuff like that.

Go grab your 8th ed core rule book. Read every fluff quote on the bottom of the pages. Space Marines have that gak imprinted into them as they become space marines. It's hypno therapy. It's brain washing. It's psychic powers being used to write it into their minds. It's always.

**gwarsh41**

darkcloak wrote:
I've always though the Space Wolves provided a solid template for the introduction of a female space marine. A very brutal, very tribal society like that of Fenris undoubtedly produces women warriors. It's the only way to survive such an environment. And I'm not here to advocate anything other than the telling of a viable and probably epic story which if told correctly could illuminate an element of philosophical social commentary in the lore that is otherwise sadly missing from the black library fiction. I mean, we're talking post humanism and survival in a dystopian future, the books deserve to be more than just bolter porn.

Anyways, my idea was this. A fenrisian woman loses her lover when after a great battle he is whisked away by the Space Wolves to become a space marine. Unaware of his true fate and blaming her cruel gods for their separation she embarks on an impossible journey to climb to the top of the big mountain ( I forget the name of the SWs fortress mountain ) to challenge the gods to either give her back her husband or face her steel in combat. Obviously climbing the mountain is a pretty big deal since it's so bloody huge and probably covered with nasty snow monsters and the like. In the end she climbs the mountain, kills a bunch of baddies and overall impresses the onlooking Space Wolves so much that they decide to make her a novitiate. The story ends with the main character realizing that even if her lover survived the marine recruitment process, neither of them could be the same people they were before and now both of their duty lies in service to the Emperor. The space wolves rename her Lycaeus in honour of her trials, which means 'of the she-wolf'.

This story is one of the only ways I can see to bring a woman into a space marine chapter and have it be believable and enjoyable for readers of both sexes. Admittedly as a man I feel I would be unable to really write this story since such storytelling would inevitably involve a deeper understanding of the female mind and would have to resonate with the female reader as a believable character. I often find that either sex is unable to truly reproduce the mindset of the other in literature. Men write hollow women and women write overly sensitive men, it's one of the pitfalls of professional writing.

Well, that's my take on what should be included in the lore, or at least in the fiction. And again, not arguing for anything other than what I think would be a great story in an otherwise vapid collection of books. Certainly not a fem40ker so don't even bother to reply if that is in your head. I just see the setting as the perfect vehicle for social discussion and wish there was more of a philosophical bent to some of the Black Library books. I mean, we're talking about some pretty heady stuff in 40k, but sadly our fiction is limited to shooting things and man children having hissy fits.

Side note:. Not bashing BL fans, there are some good books and authors in the collection. Flight of the Eisenstein is probably one of my favourite books! It just seems that the focus of BLs storytelling is simply to provide action and excitement and not to encourage deeper philosophical conversation.

Fenrisians are not exactly a progressive society. Good chance that they don't let their women fight. SW fortress mountain is called The Fang. It is heavily guarded and one of the strongest fortresses in the imperium. SW do have human thralls, similar to how other marines have servitors, SW have fenrisians to help with the upkeep of the fang. Only a chooser of the slain can pick who is to become a space wolf. They are named thusly, because they usually choose those who fall in battle. It is more likely that if she was to accomplish getting that close to the fang, she would become one of the thralls.

**darkcloak**

Right, thanks! I've read the Ragnar omnibus but that was awhile ago so I'd forgotten most of the first book.

I think Fenrisian women probably are more like how women are portrayed in the TV series Vikings. Independent, but still not equal unless proven so by strength of arms. Space Wolves, being quite independent and respectful only of strength, are the only chapter likely to make such a breach of protocol.

I could see a Chooser of the Slain being compelled to choose a woman. If the criteria is combat ability and strength of will, then logically a Chooser could pick a woman. Perhaps he is an ancient wolf priest and decides to shake things up? Perhaps tertiary characters could be used to further illustrate how exactly this happens, like an insane Inquisitor puts pressure on the wolf priest to reconsider? We know how well SW take orders. The point isn't that it can't happen, but rather what would happen if it did and what sort of a story would that be. Using literature to explore human issues isn't new and 40k provides a rich setting to do so, that's all I want to see more of in lore!

**Peregrine**

lliu wrote:
Has this become a heated conversation about whether space marines can join the Tau or not? Anyway, my two cents thinks that they can't. Why? Like a lot of people said, sm are heavily indoctrinated and view Xenos as a cancer to be stamped out. It's not an option for them, because they don't see anything except a menace there. They'd opt for death.

The same is supposedly true of marines joining Chaos, which they are indoctrinated to hate, but they still keep falling.

**Mr Morden**

darkcloak wrote:
Right, thanks! I've read the Ragnar omnibus but that was awhile ago so I'd forgotten most of the first book.

I think Fenrisian women probably are more like how women are portrayed in the TV series Vikings. Independent, but still not equal unless proven so by strength of arms. Space Wolves, being quite independent and respectful only of strength, are the only chapter likely to make such a breach of protocol.

I could see a Chooser of the Slain being compelled to choose a woman. If the criteria is combat ability and strength of will, then logically a Chooser could pick a woman. Perhaps he is an ancient wolf priest and decides to shake things up? Perhaps tertiary characters could be used to further illustrate how exactly this happens, like an insane Inquisitor puts pressure on the wolf priest to reconsider? We know how well SW take orders. The point isn't that it can't happen, but rather what would happen if it did and what sort of a story would that be. Using literature to explore human issues isn't new and 40k provides a rich setting to do so, that's all I want to see more of in lore!

I would agree with most of that - especially how the women would be seen, it fits exactly how Inquisitor Annika acts and is portrayed in the Emperord Gift. She was a Jarl's sdaughter and a warrior before the Holy Ordos and none of the Wolves she meets seem surprised, hell Bjorn himself likes the look of her as a huntress and a woman.

Personally I like to work within the confines of the universe and let the characters push against them if they will. Now this story has the making of a real saga

**DontEatRawHagis**

Since the two missing Primarchs has been a thing for a long time now I always imagined that one of them was a female Primarch. The reason for her disappearance was due to some tragedy and the Legion was put on ice or destroyed similarly.

**Mr Morden**

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
Since the two missing Primarchs has been a thing for a long time now I always imagined that one of them was a female Primarch. The reason for her disappearance was due to some tragedy and the Legion was put on ice or destroyed similarly.

Its possible - however doesn;t impact on the Fenris story?

**DontEatRawHagis**

Mr Morden wrote:

Its possible - however doesn;t impact on the Fenris story?

The thread is about cool lore stuff that might exist.

**Andykp**

I remember reading somewhere about renegade marines, not because of chaos but just because they were so powerful individuals it went to their heads so they took over a planet. In the older fluff it happened a lot, badab wasn't so chaosy as it is now. It was just renegades. So I don't see them Siding with xenos any worse than siding with chaos. Personally don't see the pint in tau but then I'm old and grumpy and still see them as new comers.

**DontEatRawHagis**

Andykp wrote:
I remember reading somewhere about renegade marines, not because of chaos but just because they were so powerful individuals it went to their heads so they took over a planet. In the older fluff it happened a lot, badab wasn't so chaosy as it is now. It was just renegades. So I don't see them Siding with xenos any worse than siding with chaos. Personally don't see the pint in tau but then I'm old and grumpy and still see them as new comers.

Renegade didn’t always mean Chaos. But then it became synonymous with whoever was running the show.

**Dakka Wolf**

darkcloak wrote:
I've always though the Space Wolves provided a solid template for the introduction of a female space marine. A very brutal, very tribal society like that of Fenris undoubtedly produces women warriors. It's the only way to survive such an environment. And I'm not here to advocate anything other than the telling of a viable and probably epic story which if told correctly could illuminate an element of philosophical social commentary in the lore that is otherwise sadly missing from the black library fiction. I mean, we're talking post humanism and survival in a dystopian future, the books deserve to be more than just bolter porn.

Anyways, my idea was this. A fenrisian woman loses her lover when after a great battle he is whisked away by the Space Wolves to become a space marine. Unaware of his true fate and blaming her cruel gods for their separation she embarks on an impossible journey to climb to the top of the big mountain ( I forget the name of the SWs fortress mountain ) to challenge the gods to either give her back her husband or face her steel in combat. Obviously climbing the mountain is a pretty big deal since it's so bloody huge and probably covered with nasty snow monsters and the like. In the end she climbs the mountain, kills a bunch of baddies and overall impresses the onlooking Space Wolves so much that they decide to make her a novitiate. The story ends with the main character realizing that even if her lover survived the marine recruitment process, neither of them could be the same people they were before and now both of their duty lies in service to the Emperor. The space wolves rename her Lycaeus in honour of her trials, which means 'of the she-wolf'.

This story is one of the only ways I can see to bring a woman into a space marine chapter and have it be believable and enjoyable for readers of both sexes. Admittedly as a man I feel I would be unable to really write this story since such storytelling would inevitably involve a deeper understanding of the female mind and would have to resonate with the female reader as a believable character. I often find that either sex is unable to truly reproduce the mindset of the other in literature. Men write hollow women and women write overly sensitive men, it's one of the pitfalls of professional writing.

Well, that's my take on what should be included in the lore, or at least in the fiction. And again, not arguing for anything other than what I think would be a great story in an otherwise vapid collection of books. Certainly not a fem40ker so don't even bother to reply if that is in your head. I just see the setting as the perfect vehicle for social discussion and wish there was more of a philosophical bent to some of the Black Library books. I mean, we're talking about some pretty heady stuff in 40k, but sadly our fiction is limited to shooting things and man children having hissy fits.

Side note:. Not bashing BL fans, there are some good books and authors in the collection. Flight of the Eisenstein is probably one of my favourite books! It just seems that the focus of BLs storytelling is simply to provide action and excitement and not to encourage deeper philosophical conversation.

This is Canis Wolfborn's story told for a female.
Canis was raised by wolves who got killed by the Space Wolves so Canis travelled to the foot of the Fang and demanded the skypeople face his wrath.

**Engrenages**

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
Since the two missing Primarchs has been a thing for a long time now I always imagined that one of them was a female Primarch. The reason for her disappearance was due to some tragedy and the Legion was put on ice or destroyed similarly.

I remember something about Malcador suggesting there should have been some female Primarchs among them to bring some balance into the mix, but the Emperor dismissed it as nothing more than a joke. I'll be trying to find the source but I think it is in one HH novels

**pm713**

Peregrine wrote:
lliu wrote:
Has this become a heated conversation about whether space marines can join the Tau or not? Anyway, my two cents thinks that they can't. Why? Like a lot of people said, sm are heavily indoctrinated and view Xenos as a cancer to be stamped out. It's not an option for them, because they don't see anything except a menace there. They'd opt for death.

The same is supposedly true of marines joining Chaos, which they are indoctrinated to hate, but they still keep falling.

The indoctrination and testing they go through doesn't seem to really adapt to the Marines beliefs and thoughts changing over time.

For example when a Space Wolf aspirant is tested they're tempted by each Chaos God. Any sign of falling and they're killed. Yet Space Wolves do join Chaos.

**Solar-powered_chainsword**

Lance845 wrote:
Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

Space Marines aren't always heavily indoctrinated fanatically religious zealots.

Yes they are. The process for making space marines includes...

Space Marines, of course, vary in intelligence as do other men, and their individual mental abilities vary to some degree, as their implants do not reshape their core neural architecture, though the hypnotherapy does act to "smooth out" many personality quirks. This indoctrination also includes psychological conditioning which is intended to reinforce a Space Marine's respect for authority and his willingness to follow orders regardless of his own desires, as well as to harden his mind to the corruptive temptations offered by Chaos. It is no exaggeration to say that many Astartes truly no longer know fear. At the end of this process, if all goes well, an adolescent human male will have been transformed into a superhuman Astartes.Yet, in many ways he will no longer truly be human, having sacrificed his own humanity so that he might protect that of others.

Space marines are all literally brainwashed. While yes, different chapters reinforce different traits and such to different extents, their zealot fanatical nature is a core aspect of all of them. It's why those that fall to chaos fall so hard. It's not just some guy getting pissed with their boss. Their whole known existence becomes shattered when their religion gets called into question.

But they aren't always this. Again, in the Badab War, they go against the Emperor and Imperium, without falling to Chaos, but just through deciding that they want more power. So they can go again the religious zealotry and decide just to go against it. Then, you have the Space Marines who don't act like religious zealots, and are willing to do things like make temporary alliances with Xenos or stuff like that.

Go grab your 8th ed core rule book. Read every fluff quote on the bottom of the pages. Space Marines have that gak imprinted into them as they become space marines. It's hypno therapy. It's brain washing. It's psychic powers being used to write it into their minds. It's always.

But again, as I can't stress enough, they can go against it, as we see with renegade marines who rebel without being corrupted by Chaos, like the Astral Claws. They turned against the Imperium and thus their therapy, and it wasn't because Chaos corrupted them.

On the actual topic, there's a fair bit more I'd like to see. More stuff on life in the Tau empire would be cool, especially for humans. So far, it tends to be between generic "They live nice lives" and stupid "They're sterilized and treated as inferiors!" The Tau shouldn't be ultra-nice, but they also shouldn't be made stupidly racist and xenophobic just to make them evil. I'd also like to see a load more Chaos Xenos, as they're barely ever mentioned, as well as more mutant and normal human stuff. I get it, Space Marines turn to chaos, we've seen that in a billion different boring forms. Let's see the normal dudes and aliens turning to Chaos. Chaos is supposed to be getting a huge amount of focus, but it's mostly just more space marines and daemons.

**lliu**

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

Space Marines aren't always heavily indoctrinated fanatically religious zealots.

Yes they are. The process for making space marines includes...

Space Marines, of course, vary in intelligence as do other men, and their individual mental abilities vary to some degree, as their implants do not reshape their core neural architecture, though the hypnotherapy does act to "smooth out" many personality quirks. This indoctrination also includes psychological conditioning which is intended to reinforce a Space Marine's respect for authority and his willingness to follow orders regardless of his own desires, as well as to harden his mind to the corruptive temptations offered by Chaos. It is no exaggeration to say that many Astartes truly no longer know fear. At the end of this process, if all goes well, an adolescent human male will have been transformed into a superhuman Astartes.Yet, in many ways he will no longer truly be human, having sacrificed his own humanity so that he might protect that of others.

Space marines are all literally brainwashed. While yes, different chapters reinforce different traits and such to different extents, their zealot fanatical nature is a core aspect of all of them. It's why those that fall to chaos fall so hard. It's not just some guy getting pissed with their boss. Their whole known existence becomes shattered when their religion gets called into question.

But they aren't always this. Again, in the Badab War, they go against the Emperor and Imperium, without falling to Chaos, but just through deciding that they want more power. So they can go again the religious zealotry and decide just to go against it. Then, you have the Space Marines who don't act like religious zealots, and are willing to do things like make temporary alliances with Xenos or stuff like that.

Go grab your 8th ed core rule book. Read every fluff quote on the bottom of the pages. Space Marines have that gak imprinted into them as they become space marines. It's hypno therapy. It's brain washing. It's psychic powers being used to write it into their minds. It's always.

But again, as I can't stress enough, they can go against it, as we see with renegade marines who rebel without being corrupted by Chaos, like the Astral Claws. They turned against the Imperium and thus their therapy, and it wasn't because Chaos corrupted them.

Are you sure? Light Huron seems to have a giant eye in his power fist. He was gifted a black stone fortress by Abaddon. Seems pretty Chaos to me. Even if their intentions were good, who’s to say Chaos wasn’t the one feeding those thoughts into their heads? They are Chaos marines now.

**Solar-powered_chainsword**

lliu wrote:
Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

Space Marines aren't always heavily indoctrinated fanatically religious zealots.

Yes they are. The process for making space marines includes...

Space Marines, of course, vary in intelligence as do other men, and their individual mental abilities vary to some degree, as their implants do not reshape their core neural architecture, though the hypnotherapy does act to "smooth out" many personality quirks. This indoctrination also includes psychological conditioning which is intended to reinforce a Space Marine's respect for authority and his willingness to follow orders regardless of his own desires, as well as to harden his mind to the corruptive temptations offered by Chaos. It is no exaggeration to say that many Astartes truly no longer know fear. At the end of this process, if all goes well, an adolescent human male will have been transformed into a superhuman Astartes.Yet, in many ways he will no longer truly be human, having sacrificed his own humanity so that he might protect that of others.

Space marines are all literally brainwashed. While yes, different chapters reinforce different traits and such to different extents, their zealot fanatical nature is a core aspect of all of them. It's why those that fall to chaos fall so hard. It's not just some guy getting pissed with their boss. Their whole known existence becomes shattered when their religion gets called into question.

But they aren't always this. Again, in the Badab War, they go against the Emperor and Imperium, without falling to Chaos, but just through deciding that they want more power. So they can go again the religious zealotry and decide just to go against it. Then, you have the Space Marines who don't act like religious zealots, and are willing to do things like make temporary alliances with Xenos or stuff like that.

Go grab your 8th ed core rule book. Read every fluff quote on the bottom of the pages. Space Marines have that gak imprinted into them as they become space marines. It's hypno therapy. It's brain washing. It's psychic powers being used to write it into their minds. It's always.

But again, as I can't stress enough, they can go against it, as we see with renegade marines who rebel without being corrupted by Chaos, like the Astral Claws. They turned against the Imperium and thus their therapy, and it wasn't because Chaos corrupted them.

Are you sure? Light Huron seems to have a giant eye in his power fist. He was gifted a black stone fortress by Abaddon. Seems pretty Chaos to me. Even if their intentions were good, who’s to say Chaos wasn’t the one feeding those thoughts into their heads? They are Chaos marines now.

Sure, now they are. But they didn't turn against the Imperium because of Chaos, they turned against the Imperium, were beaten, and then turned to Chaos long after the initial rebellion. There's absolutely no mention of any Chaos elements in the initial rebellion.

**Lance845**

Yes, some few of the SM end up loosing faith and breaking away from the imperium. It doesn't change the fact they they all START as "heavily indoctrinated fanatically religious zealots".

Which they all do. Because they are all brain washed.

What happens to them AFTER they have been brainwashed is all over the shop. Especially when they can live for hundreds or thousands of years.

But those chaplains that are supposed to be maintaining their spiritual and mental health are doing so by regularly reinforcing their brainwashing.

Do SM break away from it? Yeah. I wasn't debating that. I was saying that there is no such thing as a SM who is not brainwashed as a part of becoming a SM. And thus all SM that are loyalist are brainwashed.

The very moment one of them starts to question all this indoctrination it's a sign of heresy and it's dealt with as such. Maybe the SM still thinks of himself as loyalist. Doesn't matter. The imperium oesn't view them that way. They are either indoctrinated weapons or they are dangerous heretics.

**ChazSexington**

Pre-Dark Imperium, I always thought it made zero sense they hadn't exported Fenrisians to other, more habitable worlds to allow for the creation of Space Wolf Successors, or just to keep them up to strength.

darkcloak wrote:
I've always though the Space Wolves provided a solid template for the introduction of a female space marine. A very brutal, very tribal society like that of Fenris undoubtedly produces women warriors. It's the only way to survive such an environment. And I'm not here to advocate anything other than the telling of a viable and probably epic story which if told correctly could illuminate an element of philosophical social commentary in the lore that is otherwise sadly missing from the black library fiction. I mean, we're talking post humanism and survival in a dystopian future, the books deserve to be more than just bolter porn.

Anyways, my idea was this. A fenrisian woman loses her lover when after a great battle he is whisked away by the Space Wolves to become a space marine. Unaware of his true fate and blaming her cruel gods for their separation she embarks on an impossible journey to climb to the top of the big mountain ( I forget the name of the SWs fortress mountain ) to challenge the gods to either give her back her husband or face her steel in combat. Obviously climbing the mountain is a pretty big deal since it's so bloody huge and probably covered with nasty snow monsters and the like. In the end she climbs the mountain, kills a bunch of baddies and overall impresses the onlooking Space Wolves so much that they decide to make her a novitiate. The story ends with the main character realizing that even if her lover survived the marine recruitment process, neither of them could be the same people they were before and now both of their duty lies in service to the Emperor. The space wolves rename her Lycaeus in honour of her trials, which means 'of the she-wolf'.

This story is one of the only ways I can see to bring a woman into a space marine chapter and have it be believable and enjoyable for readers of both sexes. Admittedly as a man I feel I would be unable to really write this story since such storytelling would inevitably involve a deeper understanding of the female mind and would have to resonate with the female reader as a believable character. I often find that either sex is unable to truly reproduce the mindset of the other in literature. Men write hollow women and women write overly sensitive men, it's one of the pitfalls of professional writing.

Well, that's my take on what should be included in the lore, or at least in the fiction. And again, not arguing for anything other than what I think would be a great story in an otherwise vapid collection of books. Certainly not a fem40ker so don't even bother to reply if that is in your head. I just see the setting as the perfect vehicle for social discussion and wish there was more of a philosophical bent to some of the Black Library books. I mean, we're talking about some pretty heady stuff in 40k, but sadly our fiction is limited to shooting things and man children having hissy fits.

Side note:. Not bashing BL fans, there are some good books and authors in the collection. Flight of the Eisenstein is probably one of my favourite books! It just seems that the focus of BLs storytelling is simply to provide action and excitement and not to encourage deeper philosophical conversation.

Issue is the lore, where women aren't compatible with gene-seed. Cawl solved the Canis Helix and Black Rage (seemingly), but couldn't work past a double X chromosome. GW dropped the ball there. The closest she could be would be a Chapter-Serf.

As mentioned, the story is the same as the horrifically named (as is tradition with Space Wolf characters) Canis Wolfborn's story.

Btw, Lycaeus was the name of the Raven Guard home planet and is Greek. It would also be rather immersion-breaking to have a Greek name in a OTT Norse-themed culture. Corrupt "af kvenkyns úlfurinn" for an actual Norse name that means that. Also, brutal cultures definitely don't allow women to become soldiers - they're far too valuable. Look at Krieg and the Vitae Womb.

But otherwise agree with your points.

**locarno24**

Automatically Appended Next Post:

godardc wrote:
Then, Chaos is like radiations, mere exposure can kill you, or if you are strong enough, will corrupt you, plain and simple.

TBH this is a really terrible version of Chaos, and I really wish GW would stop using it. Falling to Chaos is meant to be a willing act. It can tempt you with promises of power, offer you everything you ever wanted if only you sign away your soul, but it can not simply declare "you are now Chaos" and make you start growing weird tentacles and slaughtering innocents. As a willing act falling to or resisting Chaos is interesting. Do you have the willpower to resist, no matter how tempting the offer is? How much would you pay for an immediate victory? Would you willingly sacrifice yourself to the dark powers to save the one person you love most? Or would you watch them die, knowing that Chaos would eagerly grant you the power to save them if only you ask. As mere "Chaos radiation" it's boring and

. There's no drama, no character development, only "roll to see how much Chaos damage you take".

With the proper understanding of Chaos in mind xenos corruption is absolutely also a thing. The xenos can offer many things, if only you are willing to accept them, just like the dark gods can. They can lure you in, tempt you with greater and greater gifts, until you are brought fully under their control. First it's using that cache of Tau pulse rifles you found, because you're out of bolter ammunition and the Tyranids are a much bigger threat to worry about. Then you're having doubts about the virtues of the Imperium, if the crude firearms you have been given are so clearly inadequate, and the lunatic cults that run the Imperium refuse to allow you to get superior weapons like those pulse rifles, why should such idiocy stand in the path of victory? Next thing you know you're swearing loyalty to the Greater Good and standing in defense of your fellow humans alongside the might of the Tau Empire.

**Solar-powered_chainsword**

Lance845 wrote:
Yes, some few of the SM end up loosing faith and breaking away from the imperium. It doesn't change the fact they they all START as "heavily indoctrinated fanatically religious zealots".

Which they all do. Because they are all brain washed.

What happens to them AFTER they have been brainwashed is all over the shop. Especially when they can live for hundreds or thousands of years.

But those chaplains that are supposed to be maintaining their spiritual and mental health are doing so by regularly reinforcing their brainwashing.

Do SM break away from it? Yeah. I wasn't debating that. I was saying that there is no such thing as a SM who is not brainwashed as a part of becoming a SM. And thus all SM that are loyalist are brainwashed.

The very moment one of them starts to question all this indoctrination it's a sign of heresy and it's dealt with as such. Maybe the SM still thinks of himself as loyalist. Doesn't matter. The imperium oesn't view them that way. They are either indoctrinated weapons or they are dangerous heretics.

So what? They don't all stay that, so them starting as is fairly irrelevant to whether they could turn to the Greater Good.

**Iracundus**

locarno24 wrote:
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godardc wrote:
Then, Chaos is like radiations, mere exposure can kill you, or if you are strong enough, will corrupt you, plain and simple.

TBH this is a really terrible version of Chaos, and I really wish GW would stop using it. Falling to Chaos is meant to be a willing act. It can tempt you with promises of power, offer you everything you ever wanted if only you sign away your soul, but it can not simply declare "you are now Chaos" and make you start growing weird tentacles and slaughtering innocents. As a willing act falling to or resisting Chaos is interesting. Do you have the willpower to resist, no matter how tempting the offer is? How much would you pay for an immediate victory? Would you willingly sacrifice yourself to the dark powers to save the one person you love most? Or would you watch them die, knowing that Chaos would eagerly grant you the power to save them if only you ask. As mere "Chaos radiation" it's boring and . There's no drama, no character development, only "roll to see how much Chaos damage you take".

With the proper understanding of Chaos in mind xenos corruption is absolutely also a thing. The xenos can offer many things, if only you are willing to accept them, just like the dark gods can. They can lure you in, tempt you with greater and greater gifts, until you are brought fully under their control. First it's using that cache of Tau pulse rifles you found, because you're out of bolter ammunition and the Tyranids are a much bigger threat to worry about. Then you're having doubts about the virtues of the Imperium, if the crude firearms you have been given are so clearly inadequate, and the lunatic cults that run the Imperium refuse to allow you to get superior weapons like those pulse rifles, why should such idiocy stand in the path of victory? Next thing you know you're swearing loyalty to the Greater Good and standing in defense of your fellow humans alongside the might of the Tau Empire.

It's a combination of the two. Chaos can kill you in a horrible mutating tentacle-y mess, but it can't force you to 'sign on'. But you can 'forcibly corrupt' in a sense of endless suffering and insanity until you succumb.

**SomeRandomEvilGuy**

locarno24 wrote:
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With the proper understanding of Chaos in mind xenos corruption is absolutely also a thing. The xenos can offer many things, if only you are willing to accept them, just like the dark gods can. They can lure you in, tempt you with greater and greater gifts, until you are brought fully under their control. First it's using that cache of Tau pulse rifles you found, because you're out of bolter ammunition and the Tyranids are a much bigger threat to worry about. Then you're having doubts about the virtues of the Imperium, if the crude firearms you have been given are so clearly inadequate, and the lunatic cults that run the Imperium refuse to allow you to get superior weapons like those pulse rifles, why should such idiocy stand in the path of victory? Next thing you know you're swearing loyalty to the Greater Good and standing in defense of your fellow humans alongside the might of the Tau Empire.

**dkoz**

ChazSexington wrote:
Pre-Dark Imperium, I always thought it made zero sense they hadn't exported Fenrisians to other, more habitable worlds to allow for the creation of Space Wolf Successors, or just to keep them up to strength.

darkcloak wrote:
I've always though the Space Wolves provided a solid template for the introduction of a female space marine. A very brutal, very tribal society like that of Fenris undoubtedly produces women warriors. It's the only way to survive such an environment. And I'm not here to advocate anything other than the telling of a viable and probably epic story which if told correctly could illuminate an element of philosophical social commentary in the lore that is otherwise sadly missing from the black library fiction. I mean, we're talking post humanism and survival in a dystopian future, the books deserve to be more than just bolter porn.

Anyways, my idea was this. A fenrisian woman loses her lover when after a great battle he is whisked away by the Space Wolves to become a space marine. Unaware of his true fate and blaming her cruel gods for their separation she embarks on an impossible journey to climb to the top of the big mountain ( I forget the name of the SWs fortress mountain ) to challenge the gods to either give her back her husband or face her steel in combat. Obviously climbing the mountain is a pretty big deal since it's so bloody huge and probably covered with nasty snow monsters and the like. In the end she climbs the mountain, kills a bunch of baddies and overall impresses the onlooking Space Wolves so much that they decide to make her a novitiate. The story ends with the main character realizing that even if her lover survived the marine recruitment process, neither of them could be the same people they were before and now both of their duty lies in service to the Emperor. The space wolves rename her Lycaeus in honour of her trials, which means 'of the she-wolf'.

This story is one of the only ways I can see to bring a woman into a space marine chapter and have it be believable and enjoyable for readers of both sexes. Admittedly as a man I feel I would be unable to really write this story since such storytelling would inevitably involve a deeper understanding of the female mind and would have to resonate with the female reader as a believable character. I often find that either sex is unable to truly reproduce the mindset of the other in literature. Men write hollow women and women write overly sensitive men, it's one of the pitfalls of professional writing.

Well, that's my take on what should be included in the lore, or at least in the fiction. And again, not arguing for anything other than what I think would be a great story in an otherwise vapid collection of books. Certainly not a fem40ker so don't even bother to reply if that is in your head. I just see the setting as the perfect vehicle for social discussion and wish there was more of a philosophical bent to some of the Black Library books. I mean, we're talking about some pretty heady stuff in 40k, but sadly our fiction is limited to shooting things and man children having hissy fits.

Side note:. Not bashing BL fans, there are some good books and authors in the collection. Flight of the Eisenstein is probably one of my favourite books! It just seems that the focus of BLs storytelling is simply to provide action and excitement and not to encourage deeper philosophical conversation.

Issue is the lore, where women aren't compatible with gene-seed. Cawl solved the Canis Helix and Black Rage (seemingly), but couldn't work past a double X chromosome. GW dropped the ball there. The closest she could be would be a Chapter-Serf.

As mentioned, the story is the same as the horrifically named (as is tradition with Space Wolf characters) Canis Wolfborn's story.

Btw, Lycaeus was the name of the Raven Guard home planet and is Greek. It would also be rather immersion-breaking to have a Greek name in a OTT Norse-themed culture. Corrupt "af kvenkyns úlfurinn" for an actual Norse name that means that. Also, brutal cultures definitely don't allow women to become soldiers - they're far too valuable. Look at Krieg and the Vitae Womb.

But otherwise agree with your points.

It's arguable that GW dropped the ball with Cawl possibly solving some issues, Adeptus Astartes being all male makes them unique.

**Iracundus**

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
locarno24 wrote:
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With the proper understanding of Chaos in mind xenos corruption is absolutely also a thing. The xenos can offer many things, if only you are willing to accept them, just like the dark gods can. They can lure you in, tempt you with greater and greater gifts, until you are brought fully under their control. First it's using that cache of Tau pulse rifles you found, because you're out of bolter ammunition and the Tyranids are a much bigger threat to worry about. Then you're having doubts about the virtues of the Imperium, if the crude firearms you have been given are so clearly inadequate, and the lunatic cults that run the Imperium refuse to allow you to get superior weapons like those pulse rifles, why should such idiocy stand in the path of victory? Next thing you know you're swearing loyalty to the Greater Good and standing in defense of your fellow humans alongside the might of the Tau Empire.

Space Marines would know how weak the Tau are though. The Tau don't promise strength or (more than short-term) victory to people in the know because they are too weak nor do I recall any Space Marines not viewing themselves as superior to xenos even after falling to Chaos. Plus Space Marines being known to join the Tau strikes me as the sort of thing that results in significant reprisal from the Imperium.

I could see (rare) Space Marines working with xenos to defend humanity (even long term) but joining the Tau puts the Tau in control of humanity (yeah I know, autonomy and all that, the Ethereals are still in charge).

The Imperial Guard is exposed to the Imperial faith about humans being better, never dealing with the xenos, abhorring Chaos, etc... But nonetheless they still break and run, some get executed for cowardice, some turn traitor and defect etc... Whole worlds in the first Tau Codex broke the rules about not dealing with the alien, when they traded for agricultural equipment that was superior to what they had.

One cannot use Imperial propaganda and official party line as the standard for what could happen.

I wouldn't say a Space Marine defecting is impossible, just very rare and unlikely. If the Imperium were to encounter one, I would expect any records to be scrubbed, just as any battle the Custodes take part in was automatically declared a victory, even if they didn't win, (according to the Codex Custodes).

**dkoz**

If Adeptus Astartes can fall to chaos I don't see any reason they couldn't be convinced that the greater good is in the best interest of humanity.

**Quickjager**

Because Tau can't even beat the Imperium down entirely. Why join the weaker empire if all it means is that you will get crushed and you will never get reinforcements?