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I'd comment on what people had replied to my own statements but I fear I'd make my argument and the thread would just get deleted.

Because, you know, that's a grown up way of solving a problem.

At any rate, women could be marines. If you wanna quote lore, look at space marines in general and tell me their lore is decent now. Just try. Lol. Primaris Marines are total BS. But no girls. Right. Yeah.

You know now it does seem pretty suspect that a person can reasonably argue the possibility of female space marines and yet still be shut down consistently with the same argument ad infinitum. The debate is literally boiling down to 'because Englishmen said so' and that is the only thing making it a lore issue.

dkoz wrote:
If Adeptus Astartes can fall to chaos I don't see any reason they couldn't be convinced that the greater good is in the best interest of humanity.

Since old night every human and everyone based on the humans knows: only a dead xeno is a good xeno. So the greatest good is a Galaxy free of them.

The Imperial Space Marine , organized in Legions, had the job of Galaxy cleaner. Thus, every flavor of Space Marine does not "join" a valid target. Its neither an Option for "loyalists" or "traitors".



Did anyone ask for :
- ork space marines? Orks are made for winning so why shouldn't space marines aim to win?
- Necron space marines? Necrons nearly controlled the Galaxy and they are capable of repairs and teleporting out of danger. Shouldn't almost indestructability be a goal worthy of "joining the Necrons"?
- Tyranid space marines?
- space elf space marines? Feel more superior than ever!

Maybe parts of the fanbase realize everybody needs his own themes, his own units?

dkoz wrote:
If Adeptus Astartes can fall to chaos I don't see any reason they couldn't be convinced that the greater good is in the best interest of humanity.

If by greater good you mean slaves to an alien oligarchy, yes.
Chaos is a little bit more convincing than Tau too, considering how it gets into your head and starts using your own insecurities and emotions against you.

Any space marine who has felt the shine of a 6th Ed markerlights knows how Tau can engender feelings of insecurity...

Tabletop =/= Background

 darkcloak wrote:
Any space marine who has felt the shine of a 6th Ed markerlights knows how Tau can engender feelings of insecurity...

It was a pain in the ass, for sure.

Now all those guys are selling their armies. "What? You can now charge out of a deep strike? This game sucks, where do I start a guard army?"

 darkcloak wrote:
I'd comment on what people had replied to my own statements but I fear I'd make my argument and the thread would just get deleted.

Because, you know, that's a grown up way of solving a problem.

At any rate, women could be marines. If you wanna quote lore, look at space marines in general and tell me their lore is decent now. Just try. Lol. Primaris Marines are total BS. But no girls. Right. Yeah.

You know now it does seem pretty suspect that a person can reasonably argue the possibility of female space marines and yet still be shut down consistently with the same argument ad infinitum. The debate is literally boiling down to 'because Englishmen said so' and that is the only thing making it a lore issue.

Just go make another thread, its not funny at this point.

 Quickjager wrote:
Just go make another thread, its not funny at this point.

Agreed. I'm personally getting sick of this muscle-girl fetish coming up all the time.

 darkcloak wrote:
I'd comment on what people had replied to my own statements but I fear I'd make my argument and the thread would just get deleted.

Because, you know, that's a grown up way of solving a problem.

At any rate, women could be marines. If you wanna quote lore, look at space marines in general and tell me their lore is decent now. Just try. Lol. Primaris Marines are total BS. But no girls. Right. Yeah.

You know now it does seem pretty suspect that a person can reasonably argue the possibility of female space marines and yet still be shut down consistently with the same argument ad infinitum. The debate is literally boiling down to 'because Englishmen said so' and that is the only thing making it a lore issue.

No per lore women can't be Adeptus Astartes and Primaris Marines are spot on Cawl created them off the Emperor previous work. Now give the Emerors inability to create female Astartes in the past Cawl had nothing to go off of. GW doesn't need to destroy decades worth of solid lore just to satisfy today's radical activists.

 Quickjager wrote:
Because Tau can't even beat the Imperium down entirely. Why join the weaker empire if all it means is that you will get crushed and you will never get reinforcements?

The Imperium is in no shape to waste resources on another crusade against the Tau, and there are a number of human worlds now under Tau control. I can easily see a less fortunate homeless Chapter accepting not exactly joining but allying with the Tau in exchange for a new recruiting world. They now have reinforcements and the humans now have human overlords instead of xeno rule. And there's any number of threats to fight without raising arms against the IoM.

Now that we have Primaris Marines they need a flyer.

dkoz wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
I'd comment on what people had replied to my own statements but I fear I'd make my argument and the thread would just get deleted.

Because, you know, that's a grown up way of solving a problem.

At any rate, women could be marines. If you wanna quote lore, look at space marines in general and tell me their lore is decent now. Just try. Lol. Primaris Marines are total BS. But no girls. Right. Yeah.

You know now it does seem pretty suspect that a person can reasonably argue the possibility of female space marines and yet still be shut down consistently with the same argument ad infinitum. The debate is literally boiling down to 'because Englishmen said so' and that is the only thing making it a lore issue.

No per lore women can't be Adeptus Astartes and Primaris Marines are spot on Cawl created them off the Emperor previous work. Now give the Emerors inability to create female Astartes in the past Cawl had nothing to go off of. GW doesn't need to destroy decades worth of solid lore just to satisfy today's radical activists.

Do you mean in the way that they destroyed decades of previous lore so they could bring people "true "scale"" marines? I fail to see the actual difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Because Tau can't even beat the Imperium down entirely. Why join the weaker empire if all it means is that you will get crushed and you will never get reinforcements?

The Imperium is in no shape to waste resources on another crusade against the Tau, and there are a number of human worlds now under Tau control. I can easily see a less fortunate homeless Chapter accepting not exactly joining but allying with the Tau in exchange for a new recruiting world. They now have reinforcements and the humans now have human overlords instead of xeno rule. And there's any number of threats to fight without raising arms against the IoM.

The adeptus astartes only function with a vast amount of autonomy. Even the rest of the Imperium doesn't really tell them what to do. They get a world to draw recruits from and the Imperium asks them to help and then they do or they don't.

The Tau wouldn't accept that arrangement. Your either a part of the great good, working towards the greater good, or they exterminate you in quick calculated genocidal methods in the name of the greater good. The Farsight Enclaves ARE Tau who are off doing their own thing and because the rest of the Tau Empire don't have complete control they consider them renegades that need to be exterminated and expunged from the records. Why the hell would they make an exception for a bunch of humans?

 Lance845 wrote:

dkoz wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
I'd comment on what people had replied to my own statements but I fear I'd make my argument and the thread would just get deleted.

Because, you know, that's a grown up way of solving a problem.

At any rate, women could be marines. If you wanna quote lore, look at space marines in general and tell me their lore is decent now. Just try. Lol. Primaris Marines are total BS. But no girls. Right. Yeah.

You know now it does seem pretty suspect that a person can reasonably argue the possibility of female space marines and yet still be shut down consistently with the same argument ad infinitum. The debate is literally boiling down to 'because Englishmen said so' and that is the only thing making it a lore issue.

No per lore women can't be Adeptus Astartes and Primaris Marines are spot on Cawl created them off the Emperor previous work. Now give the Emerors inability to create female Astartes in the past Cawl had nothing to go off of. GW doesn't need to destroy decades worth of solid lore just to satisfy today's radical activists.

Do you mean in the way that they destroyed decades of previous lore so they could bring people "true "scale"" marines? I fail to see the actual difference.

GW didn't destroy the decades of previously established lore w/the introduction of Primaris Marines they introduced them seamlessly w/Cawl working on the Emperors already established work.

dkoz wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

dkoz wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
I'd comment on what people had replied to my own statements but I fear I'd make my argument and the thread would just get deleted.

Because, you know, that's a grown up way of solving a problem.

At any rate, women could be marines. If you wanna quote lore, look at space marines in general and tell me their lore is decent now. Just try. Lol. Primaris Marines are total BS. But no girls. Right. Yeah.

You know now it does seem pretty suspect that a person can reasonably argue the possibility of female space marines and yet still be shut down consistently with the same argument ad infinitum. The debate is literally boiling down to 'because Englishmen said so' and that is the only thing making it a lore issue.

No per lore women can't be Adeptus Astartes and Primaris Marines are spot on Cawl created them off the Emperor previous work. Now give the Emerors inability to create female Astartes in the past Cawl had nothing to go off of. GW doesn't need to destroy decades worth of solid lore just to satisfy today's radical activists.

Do you mean in the way that they destroyed decades of previous lore so they could bring people "true "scale"" marines? I fail to see the actual difference.

GW didn't destroy the decades of previously established lore w/the introduction of Primaris Marines they introduced them seamlessly w/Cawl working on the Emperors already established work.

Cawl himself is a destruction of decades of previous lore. All the new innovations hes been spitting out are destruction of decades of previous lore.

IoM is supposed to be in a technological decline. But hey! here comes Cawl again, fixing everything, inventing new stuff, and bringing back some old tech but this time it's better! Nobody in the entire AdMech could figure any of this stuff out for 10k years but this guy.... THIS GUY has been around that entire time just WAITING to spit out some innovations all at once in every possible field of study. Also, lets just go back and retcon that Cawl was told by Robby G that he should make bigger and better marines during the heresy when the Emperor was still walking about. Yup... that would fly.

Seamless my ass.

He wasn't told during the Heresy.

 Quickjager wrote:
He wasn't told during the Heresy.

Sure. Conceeded. But get this, Cawl helped the Emperor develop the Black Carapace apparently. Forget the sheer entropy of the technology available since that time, no technology that ever has been in the hands of the Admech has been capable of sustaining a regular humans mind for that long. It's why, even though the Admech top brass are exceedingly long lived and more machine then man, they all do eventually die.

But not this fether! Cawl flies in the face of it all, brand new big marines and hover tanks and +10% to all systems on a pre-hersey ship! feth the old fluff, new fluff is here!


Keep in mind, I don't actually care that the fluff changed. The fluff changes ALL the time. I am just pointing out that if the fluff changed so there were female primaris marines it would have been exactly the same as there being all the fluff changes that made it so there are primaris marines to begin with.

Gtfo of this thread if you are just gonna bring it up and get this thread locked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
He wasn't told during the Heresy.

Sure. Conceeded. But get this, Cawl helped the Emperor develop the Black Carapace apparently. Forget the sheer entropy of the technology available since that time, no technology that ever has been in the hands of the Admech has been capable of sustaining a regular humans mind for that long. It's why, even though the Admech top brass are exceedingly long lived and more machine then man, they all do eventually die.

But not this fether! Cawl flies in the face of it all, brand new big marines and hover tanks and +10% to all systems on a pre-hersey ship! feth the old fluff, new fluff is here!


Keep in mind, I don't actually care that the fluff changed. The fluff changes ALL the time. I am just pointing out that if the fluff changed so there were female primaris marines it would have been exactly the same as there being all the fluff changes that made it so there are primaris marines to begin with.

Isn't Cawl mostly machine, even by Admech standards? He doesn't even look human anymore. Maybe the reason why he's so big is because he's mostly life support system, and that's why he can live for so long.

Oh boy, here come the 'muh female muhreenz' arguments to gak up another thread.

Guys, we get it. You want it. Most people don't. Go buy female heads and glue them on your models and quit trolling.

dkoz wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

dkoz wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
I'd comment on what people had replied to my own statements but I fear I'd make my argument and the thread would just get deleted.

Because, you know, that's a grown up way of solving a problem.

At any rate, women could be marines. If you wanna quote lore, look at space marines in general and tell me their lore is decent now. Just try. Lol. Primaris Marines are total BS. But no girls. Right. Yeah.

You know now it does seem pretty suspect that a person can reasonably argue the possibility of female space marines and yet still be shut down consistently with the same argument ad infinitum. The debate is literally boiling down to 'because Englishmen said so' and that is the only thing making it a lore issue.

No per lore women can't be Adeptus Astartes and Primaris Marines are spot on Cawl created them off the Emperor previous work. Now give the Emerors inability to create female Astartes in the past Cawl had nothing to go off of. GW doesn't need to destroy decades worth of solid lore just to satisfy today's radical activists.

Do you mean in the way that they destroyed decades of previous lore so they could bring people "true "scale"" marines? I fail to see the actual difference.

GW didn't destroy the decades of previously established lore w/the introduction of Primaris Marines they introduced them seamlessly w/Cawl working on the Emperors already established work.

I really hope that's sarcasm.

Anyways, not really gonna dive back into that.

But Primaris Marines, should they be in the lore as they are? I mean GW just gave the Imperium a cop out army to hold in their back pocket, like oooo Cicatrix ooooh! Whatevs we got two wound true scale marines - and we had em the whole time sucka!

Like, I'm really worried about Chaos now. My homebrew chapter is gonna sail right thru the Nachmund Gauntlet flipping off Chaos Titans left and right now!

To backwards quote the villian Abbadon most resembles now...

'Good will always win, because Evil is stupid.'

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Oh boy, here come the 'muh female muhreenz' arguments to gak up another thread.

Guys, we get it. You want it. Most people don't. Go buy female heads and glue them on your models and quit trolling.

Adeptus Doritos is 100% correct nothing is stopping those that want to put females heads on Adeptus bodies from dueing so. It's just not on GW to radically alter their established lore to satisfy a few activists. Nothing GW has done so far really changes any of the history of 40K.

 darkcloak wrote:
Anyways, not really gonna dive back into that.

But Primaris Marines, should they be in the lore as they are? I mean GW just gave the Imperium a cop out army to hold in their back pocket, like oooo Cicatrix ooooh! Whatevs we got two wound true scale marines - and we had em the whole time sucka!

Like, I'm really worried about Chaos now. My homebrew chapter is gonna sail right thru the Nachmund Gauntlet flipping off Chaos Titans left and right now!

To backwards quote the villian Abbadon most resembles now...

'Good will always win, because Evil is stupid.'

In my opinion no. Very little about them makes sense they were just made by this guy who appeared from nowhere. Chaos has Bile who is a man who spent ten thousand years trying to improve on Astartes and then BAM this guy just outdoes him and has thousands of them. Primaris just appeared out of nowhere. It's like if tomorrow they released an army of time travelling Eldar Empire soldiers to help Eldar. It would make no sense.

I personally find the models to be pretty nice. Sure they lack certain things and I fear they will usher in more monopose style kits across the board but that's another story. But really I don't mind if Space Marines get a new generation of fighter. It only makes sense.

But it was done poorly. Maybe if Cawl had just been working on the tech for that long and only started out making new dudes recently as a hurried response to the Rift then it might have worked.

How Primaris SHOULD have been done:

-All Space Marines get a stat buff.

-New 'kits' that make Space Marines be better proportioned, while working with most of the old marine bits.

-'Primaris' isn't a type of Marine, it's a new doctrinal unit (In other words, the Hellblasters, Intercessors, etc.) Think of it more like a new 'squad' than a new 'enhanced Marine'.

-business as Usual.

pm713 wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
Anyways, not really gonna dive back into that.

But Primaris Marines, should they be in the lore as they are? I mean GW just gave the Imperium a cop out army to hold in their back pocket, like oooo Cicatrix ooooh! Whatevs we got two wound true scale marines - and we had em the whole time sucka!

Like, I'm really worried about Chaos now. My homebrew chapter is gonna sail right thru the Nachmund Gauntlet flipping off Chaos Titans left and right now!

To backwards quote the villian Abbadon most resembles now...

'Good will always win, because Evil is stupid.'

In my opinion no. Very little about them makes sense they were just made by this guy who appeared from nowhere. Chaos has Bile who is a man who spent ten thousand years trying to improve on Astartes and then BAM this guy just outdoes him and has thousands of them. Primaris just appeared out of nowhere. It's like if tomorrow they released an army of time travelling Eldar Empire soldiers to help Eldar. It would make no sense.

Cawl has access to some of the Emperor's blueprints, did he not? I'm pretty sure warp nonsense and being flying rodent gak insane is also bad for scientific advancement.

Cawl should have been 6 or 7 guys. If they made a named arch magos for each of the forge worlds in the codex who each specialized in different areas that came together under cawl(mars) it would have been way better and way more interesting.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
How Primaris SHOULD have been done:

-All Space Marines get a stat buff.

-New 'kits' that make Space Marines be better proportioned, while working with most of the old marine bits.

-'Primaris' isn't a type of Marine, it's a new doctrinal unit (In other words, the Hellblasters, Intercessors, etc.) Think of it more like a new 'squad' than a new 'enhanced Marine'.

-business as Usual.

Yeah, pretty much agreed. The new models are nice, the new statline is nice, the fluff is terrible.

 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, pretty much agreed. The new models are nice, the new statline is nice, the fluff is terrible.

I do like the models, and I am fine with Mark X armor. It's a good combination of some of the best Space Marine armor.

For years, I complained about bowlegged Marines. I wanted 'truescale' Marines for some time. In all honestly, I'd have no issues snapping apart every Space Marine in my possession to upgrade to a new proper scale. The 'new' stuff could have been done by making kits to make Space Marines considerably bigger.

Of course, I wasn't thrilled with Rowboat Girlyman coming back, either. But someone had to put a boot in the Imperium's ass.

Having actually read the primaris fluff now I really don't see the problem with them. They and the technology associated with them are more or less a time bomb waiting to go off in one way or another and Gulliman seems largely aware of that with the whole taking rather proactive steps to make them associate with other legions and attempting to curb Cawl's ambitions. Who is clearly lying to him about a number of things already, let alone whatever else he did over the last 10k years while screwing off doing his own thing in direct defiance to the rest of mars.

The rejection of all this just reminds me of the fear of noble bright a few months back, no, there's just a bunch of new and cool looking problems that happen to be useful for a while. Gulli is just like daddy that way.

That said, a wider variety of xenos would be great. I love the Cain books, but I can get my cat to guess what factions will be involved if I read her a few pages.