Things that should exist in the Lore but don’t...

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Adeptus Doritos**

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
That said, a wider variety of xenos would be great.

I'd like to see some of the freakier Xenos from 40k make an appearance.

I mean, in truth I want to see an Inquisitor-style game that has various Hrud and different Daemons and whatnot available.

**dkoz**

Yes a new xenos race would be cool.

**darkcloak**

But whose IP could they ste... Take inspiration from?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm thinking about alien tropes they havent do yet, the hit a lot of them already.

What about little grey men who utterly dominate the pysker phase but suck at everything else? Like mind bullet martians!

**DontEatRawHagis**

There are very few iconic alien races that are unique:
Note this is a very big generalization

Necrons = Cybermen = Borg
Tyranids = Arachnids(Starship Troopers) = Xenomorphs = Zerg
Eldar = Protoss = Vulcans
Dark Eldar = Romulans
Orks = Klingons

**Mr Morden**

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
There are very few iconic alien races that are unique:
Note this is a very big generalization

Necrons = Cybermen = Borg
Tyranids = Arachnids(Starship Troopers) = Xenomorphs = Zerg
Eldar = Protoss = Vulcans
Dark Eldar = Romulans
Orks = Klingons

Necrons are Terminators - they even had the "I'll be back rule" originally.

Genestealers = Aliens

As they were first sold - Orks still remain Orks in Space,

Elder started that way as Elves in Space but now are very different mainly due to the very cool Path and aspect warrior fluff way back in White Dwarf (126?), however Dark Eldar are Vampire Dark Elves in space

**darkcloak**

What about sentient plant races or big furries? Space Snails in goo vats? Lol.

Or what about taking another fantasy race and making them in spaaaaace? Could (re)do space dwarfs.

Gasp! The Grot Rebellion!!!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would fling money at GW in bags, endlessly and without thought for Grot Tanks and the like. A full line of Grots...

:Squee

**pm713**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
pm713 wrote:
darkcloak wrote:
Anyways, not really gonna dive back into that.

But Primaris Marines, should they be in the lore as they are? I mean GW just gave the Imperium a cop out army to hold in their back pocket, like oooo Cicatrix ooooh! Whatevs we got two wound true scale marines - and we had em the whole time sucka!

Like, I'm really worried about Chaos now. My homebrew chapter is gonna sail right thru the Nachmund Gauntlet flipping off Chaos Titans left and right now!

To backwards quote the villian Abbadon most resembles now...

'Good will always win, because Evil is stupid.'

In my opinion no. Very little about them makes sense they were just made by this guy who appeared from nowhere. Chaos has Bile who is a man who spent ten thousand years trying to improve on Astartes and then BAM this guy just outdoes him and has thousands of them. Primaris just appeared out of nowhere. It's like if tomorrow they released an army of time travelling Eldar Empire soldiers to help Eldar. It would make no sense.

Cawl has access to some of the Emperor's blueprints, did he not? I'm pretty sure warp nonsense and being flying rodent gak insane is also bad for scientific advancement.

Did he? He just popped from nowhere. The Emperor's insane and look what he did. Plus insane doesn't mean stupid.

**CthuluIsSpy**

The Emperor's creations were not prone to malfunction like Bile's. They were, for the most part, pretty stable and fulfilled their roles.
Bile's Enhanced Warriors (which like Primaris, are tougher and stronger marines) tend to go insane and become murderous psychopaths, something that Bile thinks is a good thing. And that's if its successful. Are you really surprised he didn't come up with Primaris, a stable space marine improvement, first?

**pm713**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Emperor's creations were not prone to malfunction like Bile's.
Bile's Enhanced Warriors tend to go insane and become murderous psychopaths, something that Bile thinks is a good thing. And that's if its successful. Are you really surprised he didn't come up with Primaris, a stable space marine improvement, first?

I'm surprised some guy who was made up from nowhere and just so happened to be working on it did.

**BrianDavion**

pm713 wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Emperor's creations were not prone to malfunction like Bile's.
Bile's Enhanced Warriors tend to go insane and become murderous psychopaths, something that Bile thinks is a good thing. And that's if its successful. Are you really surprised he didn't come up with Primaris, a stable space marine improvement, first?

I'm surprised some guy who was made up from nowhere and just so happened to be working on it did.

working on it for ten thousand years with access to the emperor's notes, and information from the primarch project. things Bile most certainly did not have. in fact it's notable that one or possiably even two of the new organs are literally just copies of thigns primarchs had

**pm713**

BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Emperor's creations were not prone to malfunction like Bile's.
Bile's Enhanced Warriors tend to go insane and become murderous psychopaths, something that Bile thinks is a good thing. And that's if its successful. Are you really surprised he didn't come up with Primaris, a stable space marine improvement, first?

I'm surprised some guy who was made up from nowhere and just so happened to be working on it did.

working on it for ten thousand years with access to the emperor's notes, and information from the primarch project. things Bile most certainly did not have. in fact it's notable that one or possiably even two of the new organs are literally just copies of thigns primarchs had

Made up from nowhere. Cawl is literally some guy who popped up and just happened to be working on all this. You could replace him with the title 'plot device'.

**CthuluIsSpy**

What, like every character in every story ever?
Lando Calrissian is literally some guy who popped up out of nowhere and sold out Han to Boba Fett, who also literally came out of nowhere.

**Kriswall**

pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Emperor's creations were not prone to malfunction like Bile's.
Bile's Enhanced Warriors tend to go insane and become murderous psychopaths, something that Bile thinks is a good thing. And that's if its successful. Are you really surprised he didn't come up with Primaris, a stable space marine improvement, first?

I'm surprised some guy who was made up from nowhere and just so happened to be working on it did.

working on it for ten thousand years with access to the emperor's notes, and information from the primarch project. things Bile most certainly did not have. in fact it's notable that one or possiably even two of the new organs are literally just copies of thigns primarchs had

Made up from nowhere. Cawl is literally some guy who popped up and just happened to be working on all this. You could replace him with the title 'plot device'.

Plots tend to be pretty dull without plot devices. Bile is a smart dude who tried to reverse engineer a complex process in order to replicate it. He was somewhat successful. Cawl is an even smarter dude who also tried to reverse engineer a complex process. The difference is that Cawl most likely had access to the original process design notes, which is a MASSIVE aid when you're trying to reverse engineer. Cawl was also largely left alone for millennia. Bile had general Chaos stuff to work on. You know, fighting the good fight against the False Emperor.

I also don't think it's fair to say that Cawl "came from nowhere". Ignoring Cawl for a moment, is there an existing framework with the Warhammer 40k universe that could be leveraged to explain an improvement in Astartes biotech? Sure there is. The Adeptes Mechanicus is specifically tasked with overseeing gene seed related matters. An AdMech Magos Biologis would be uniquely positioned to do this sort of work. But wait!... No Magos would do this. It's heresy of the highest order. The Omnissiah's work is perfect and is not to be modified. In order for a Magos to take on this sort of task, he'd have to have orders from on high, practically from the Emperor himself. He'd also need to be extremely reclusive to keep his work away from the prying eyes of his less radical brethren. You know... someone like Cawl.

The essence of Cawl's character already existed. The recent story just gave him a name and introduced him. If GW had instead introduced a previously unknown Imperial order of biotech dudes who were descended from the Emperor's lab techs... well, that would be coming out of nowhere. His surprise appearance is definitely a plot device, but it's a plot device that fits neatly into the existing framework.

**Frazzled**

InquisitorKnickers wrote:
If you're looking for a home base for your Valkyrie SoB, there is an Imperial ice world named Valhalla.

Multiple ice worlds...yes!

Also no reason you can't have them on Fenris. The Fang was noted as the only stable landmass. Fluff-wise it might be cool if they were on a large ice sheet or their own floating platform/monastery. Ideas are endless. Make it your background.

**ChazSexington**

darkcloak wrote:
What about sentient plant races or big furries? Space Snails in goo vats? Lol.

Or what about taking another fantasy race and making them in spaaaaace? Could (re)do space dwarfs.

Gasp! The Grot Rebellion!!!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would fling money at GW in bags, endlessly and without thought for Grot Tanks and the like. A full line of Grots...

:Squee

Space Wolves?

**IronSlug**

darkcloak wrote:
I've always though the Space Wolves provided a solid template for the introduction of a female space marine. A very brutal, very tribal society like that of Fenris undoubtedly produces women warriors. It's the only way to survive such an environment. And I'm not here to advocate anything other than the telling of a viable and probably epic story which if told correctly could illuminate an element of philosophical social commentary in the lore that is otherwise sadly missing from the black library fiction. I mean, we're talking post humanism and survival in a dystopian future, the books deserve to be more than just bolter porn.

Anyways, my idea was this. A fenrisian woman loses her lover when after a great battle he is whisked away by the Space Wolves to become a space marine. Unaware of his true fate and blaming her cruel gods for their separation she embarks on an impossible journey to climb to the top of the big mountain ( I forget the name of the SWs fortress mountain ) to challenge the gods to either give her back her husband or face her steel in combat. Obviously climbing the mountain is a pretty big deal since it's so bloody huge and probably covered with nasty snow monsters and the like. In the end she climbs the mountain, kills a bunch of baddies and overall impresses the onlooking Space Wolves so much that they decide to make her a novitiate. The story ends with the main character realizing that even if her lover survived the marine recruitment process, neither of them could be the same people they were before and now both of their duty lies in service to the Emperor. The space wolves rename her Lycaeus in honour of her trials, which means 'of the she-wolf'.

This story is one of the only ways I can see to bring a woman into a space marine chapter and have it be believable and enjoyable for readers of both sexes. Admittedly as a man I feel I would be unable to really write this story since such storytelling would inevitably involve a deeper understanding of the female mind and would have to resonate with the female reader as a believable character. I often find that either sex is unable to truly reproduce the mindset of the other in literature. Men write hollow women and women write overly sensitive men, it's one of the pitfalls of professional writing.

Well, that's my take on what should be included in the lore, or at least in the fiction. And again, not arguing for anything other than what I think would be a great story in an otherwise vapid collection of books. Certainly not a fem40ker so don't even bother to reply if that is in your head. I just see the setting as the perfect vehicle for social discussion and wish there was more of a philosophical bent to some of the Black Library books. I mean, we're talking about some pretty heady stuff in 40k, but sadly our fiction is limited to shooting things and man children having hissy fits.

Side note:. Not bashing BL fans, there are some good books and authors in the collection. Flight of the Eisenstein is probably one of my favourite books! It just seems that the focus of BLs storytelling is simply to provide action and excitement and not to encourage deeper philosophical conversation.

The whole part that you described about her quest to defy her wolf gods and get back her lover I think is an amazing idea and I would love to read that !

But I'm not so sure about the indoctrination bit, she could be trained/augmented and put in a fighting position without being a full fledged Space Marine. Going the Valkyrie way gives me some idea :
- After she realizes her lover is not the man he was anymore and she already lost him, she's put in charge of recruitment of new noviciates (like a valkyrie would). In the end she end up causing to another woman the same grief she lived.
- Or she is to be a warden of wounded / agonizing marines or even dreadnought. In the end she recognize in one of them the man she loved, and there she realizes he is gone.

In all things you created the perfect start for a beautiful and sad love stroy set in 40k.

**Kriswall**

IronSlug wrote:
darkcloak wrote:
I've always though the Space Wolves provided a solid template for the introduction of a female space marine. A very brutal, very tribal society like that of Fenris undoubtedly produces women warriors. It's the only way to survive such an environment. And I'm not here to advocate anything other than the telling of a viable and probably epic story which if told correctly could illuminate an element of philosophical social commentary in the lore that is otherwise sadly missing from the black library fiction. I mean, we're talking post humanism and survival in a dystopian future, the books deserve to be more than just bolter porn.

Anyways, my idea was this. A fenrisian woman loses her lover when after a great battle he is whisked away by the Space Wolves to become a space marine. Unaware of his true fate and blaming her cruel gods for their separation she embarks on an impossible journey to climb to the top of the big mountain ( I forget the name of the SWs fortress mountain ) to challenge the gods to either give her back her husband or face her steel in combat. Obviously climbing the mountain is a pretty big deal since it's so bloody huge and probably covered with nasty snow monsters and the like. In the end she climbs the mountain, kills a bunch of baddies and overall impresses the onlooking Space Wolves so much that they decide to make her a novitiate. The story ends with the main character realizing that even if her lover survived the marine recruitment process, neither of them could be the same people they were before and now both of their duty lies in service to the Emperor. The space wolves rename her Lycaeus in honour of her trials, which means 'of the she-wolf'.

This story is one of the only ways I can see to bring a woman into a space marine chapter and have it be believable and enjoyable for readers of both sexes. Admittedly as a man I feel I would be unable to really write this story since such storytelling would inevitably involve a deeper understanding of the female mind and would have to resonate with the female reader as a believable character. I often find that either sex is unable to truly reproduce the mindset of the other in literature. Men write hollow women and women write overly sensitive men, it's one of the pitfalls of professional writing.

Well, that's my take on what should be included in the lore, or at least in the fiction. And again, not arguing for anything other than what I think would be a great story in an otherwise vapid collection of books. Certainly not a fem40ker so don't even bother to reply if that is in your head. I just see the setting as the perfect vehicle for social discussion and wish there was more of a philosophical bent to some of the Black Library books. I mean, we're talking about some pretty heady stuff in 40k, but sadly our fiction is limited to shooting things and man children having hissy fits.

Side note:. Not bashing BL fans, there are some good books and authors in the collection. Flight of the Eisenstein is probably one of my favourite books! It just seems that the focus of BLs storytelling is simply to provide action and excitement and not to encourage deeper philosophical conversation.

The whole part that you described about her quest to defy her wolf gods and get back her lover I think is an amazing idea and I would love to read that !

But I'm not so sure about the indoctrination bit, she could be trained/augmented and put in a fighting position without being a full fledged Space Marine. Going the Valkyrie way gives me some idea :
- After she realizes her lover is not the man he was anymore and she already lost him, she's put in charge of recruitment of new noviciates (like a valkyrie would). In the end she end up causing to another woman the same grief she lived.
- Or she is to be a warden of wounded / agonizing marines or even dreadnought. In the end she recognize in one of them the man she loved, and there she realizes he is gone.

In all things you created the perfect start for a beautiful and sad love stroy set in 40k.

I really like this idea. To be honest, I think the idea of making her into a Space Marine is a little bit of a stretch. I think the Space Wolves wouldn't be able to make it happen. I do, however, think that they'd easily be able to augment her to be far above a human, but below an Astartes, similar to how the scald was augmented in the novel Prospero Burns. In fact, the above ideas would be a fantastic way to introduce an all female unit to the Space Wolves army. Call them Valkyries and give them Jump Packs and melee weapons/pistols. Basically, they'd be Space Wolves aesthetic Seraphim with different rules. Hmmm... I think I need some green stuff.

**Solar-powered_chainsword**

Lance845 wrote:

The adeptus astartes only function with a vast amount of autonomy. Even the rest of the Imperium doesn't really tell them what to do. They get a world to draw recruits from and the Imperium asks them to help and then they do or they don't.

The Tau wouldn't accept that arrangement. Your either a part of the great good, working towards the greater good, or they exterminate you in quick calculated genocidal methods in the name of the greater good. The Farsight Enclaves ARE Tau who are off doing their own thing and because the rest of the Tau Empire don't have complete control they consider them renegades that need to be exterminated and expunged from the records. Why the hell would they make an exception for a bunch of humans?

The Tau would absolutely accept that. They would be the ultimate propaganda tool. "Look, Gue'la, your mighty space marines are allies of the Greater Good!" The Imperium's too busy dealing with the traitor marines that are trying to wipe them out completely to be able to devote much to attacking the Tau, and the Tau would get a whole new force of super-soldiers, who would be eager to fight against enemies like Tyranids or Orks using their extensive knowledge and abilities, so they would in defending their new homeworld be working towards the Greater Good in defending the Empire.

**darkcloak**

Hey holy gak, some people liked my Wolfette idea?!

**Mr Morden**

darkcloak wrote:
Hey holy gak, some people liked my Wolfette idea?!

Most of us do - a super solider does not need to be an actual Marine though.

She can be augmented in various ways and a Valkyrie version of the Seraphim would be good.

**DontEatRawHagis**

Mr Morden wrote:
darkcloak wrote:
Hey holy gak, some people liked my Wolfette idea?!

Most of us do - a super solider does not need to be an actual Marine though.

She can be augmented in various ways and a Valkyrie version of the Seraphim would be good.

People have more problems with the idea of Tau Space Marines than with supersoldier women... I call this a win.

**Sgt_Smudge**

Mr Morden wrote:
darkcloak wrote:
Hey holy gak, some people liked my Wolfette idea?!

Most of us do - a super solider does not need to be an actual Marine though.

She can be augmented in various ways and a Valkyrie version of the Seraphim would be good.

Agreed!

Not a Space Marine, but an augmented human is perfect!

**gnome_idea_what**

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
darkcloak wrote:
Hey holy gak, some people liked my Wolfette idea?!

Most of us do - a super solider does not need to be an actual Marine though.

She can be augmented in various ways and a Valkyrie version of the Seraphim would be good.

People have more problems with the idea of Tau Space Marines than with supersoldier women... I call this a win.

That’s honestly surprising. I guess TauMarines have less of a precedent that supersoldier women, but honestly both could be integrated into the existing lore just fine. Edit: integrated into the lore just fine as long as you’re okay with pissing off a certain number of fans.

**Adeptus Doritos**

I find Tau marines to be a bigger insult to the lore than Female Space Marines.

Someone make them so I can kill them.

**YeOldSaltPotato**

darkcloak wrote:
Hey holy gak, some people liked my Wolfette idea?!

Honestly only thing I'd hold against the initial idea is the Sisters of Battle are a direct arm of the ministorum, they don't really get to have local variations in belief unless they're actively cut off. They're supposed to be icons of the imperial creed and lead people to it. They accommodate local beliefs, they don't have them. It's a rather significant point of plot in the couple of books they have.

So, random bonus space furries? Why not. Just please don't name them wolfy mcwolfowits wolfsquire.

**darkcloak**

Wolfarbera Frostfistface?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well I had an idea for my Inferno sub, time travelling Primary Sue's sacrifice themselves to break time travel but I'm gonna sub 'Teh Tale of Wolferella' instead!

I dibs'd it!

**IronSlug**

darkcloak wrote:
Wolfarbera Frostfistface?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well I had an idea for my Inferno sub, time travelling Primary Sue's sacrifice themselves to break time travel but I'm gonna sub 'Teh Tale of Wolferella' instead!

I dibs'd it!

Sorry mate, too slow...

Wolfarbera Frostfistfac waited. The lights above her blinked and sparked out of the air. There were wolves in the mountain. She didn’t see them, but had expected them now for years. Her warnings to her companion were not listenend to and now it was too late. Far too late for now, anyway.
Wolfarbera was a shield maiden for fourteen years. When she was young she watched the tribal warriors and she said to dad “I want to be a warrior daddy.”
Dad said “No! You will BE KILL BY WOLVES”
There was a time when she believed him. Then as she got oldered she stopped. But now in the mountain base she knew there were wolves.
“This is the Allfather” a voice is saying in her head. “You must fight the wolves!”
So Wolfarbera gotted her wolf axe and blew up the wall.
“SHE GOING TO KILL US” said the wolves
“I will shoot at him” said the wolf and he fired the bolter. Wolfarbera axed at him and tried to slice him up. But then the ceiling fell and they were trapped and not able to kill.
“No! I must kill the wolves” she shouted
The Allfather said “No, Wolfarbera. You are the wolf”
And then Wolfarbera was a Space Wolf.

**darkcloak**

Okay well after reading that, I give up! How do you compete with a timeless classic?

**Spetulhu**

IronSlug wrote:
Sorry mate, too slow...

Take care you don't get drafted to write for GW, mate! You already outclass most of their writers when it comes to backstory, plot twists and character development!

Or it depends on how well paid it is, I guess. ;-)

**darkcloak**

Oh wait!

I'm gonna win the thread.

Things that should exist in 40k... BloodBowl.