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well, regardless, i'm buying the ships to decorate my room

I get that they have to do what they can with limited resources, but I also have no interest in a version of Battlefleet Gothic set in the Horus Heresy.

 mdauben wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Well a) HH is major money maker for FW b) reduces number of models they need to produce. You basically need half the ships. Even less if current age would have more than Imperium and Chaos

The HH is a big moneymaker for FW because the miniatures cross over with 40K. Battlefleet lacks that synergy with another game. Having to manufacture fewer different ships may make for production benefits, but what effect will it have on acceptance of the game. How much complaining was there about too few choices when BB and NEC were released? I'd expect the same of Battle Fleet releases with marines vs marines.

To me, the HH seems a much less interesting period to game Battle Fleet. Only two factions. Both fielding the same ships. Boooooooooooring.

Personally, I'll be taking a pass if we get Battle Fleet Heresy, just like I will take a pass on Titan Legions/Epic if its limited to the HH era.

Then you'll be taking a pass on both. TBH I think 40K players vastly overestimate how much of the HH series' success is down to them, you see the same thing in every discussion about the 7th/8th rules transition with 40K players who sometimes use a 30K army list declaring "Heresy gaming" dead, when the fact is they were never "Heresy gaming" in the first place they were playing 40K with a FW army list, no different than DKoK or Badab Astral Claws.

People were converting Heresy armies almost as soon as the original versions of the Visions of Heresy artbooks dropped, there was already a desire for specifically-Heresy gaming even two years before the first BL novel, it was just very niche in practice because you had to convert everything yourself. What made the FW range popular was not crossover with 40K, it was making the fulfillment of that existing desire accessible(if expensive) to everyone. Now I'm sure FW would have made less money from the HH range if 40K players weren't buying some of the models, but I very much doubt it would have turned the whole endeavour from success to flop.

As for Battlefleet: Heresy and AT being boring - I mean, that's what folk said about full-size Heresy, it did fine. And "both fielding the same ships" is a bit of a simplification - both "sides" will have access to the same ships, but if FW follow(hopefully with some sensible refinements) the existing background in practice there will still be the same variety in fleets as the original BFG boxed set, since the range of available ships will encompass both playstyles and should contain several aesthetic categories. Then there are Mechanicum ships, and subfaction-specific vessels. It won't have the variety of the original game at the end of its official lifespan, no, but does it have to right out of the gate? It'd be nice if it did, I'd certainly have preferred they compressed the initial Necromunda releases somewhat, but I can understand why it doesn't especially given their limited plastic production allocation.

It sucks for exclusively Xenos players that both systems will be limited to human and human-adjacent factions for a while, but obviously the hope is that if they do well enough they'll get expansions into new settings with Xenos factions, in the same way that the hope for Necromunda is that they'll eventually get to explore half a dozen other locations on the planet with varied environments and new factions. I will say though that Xenos players actually have an advantage in one regard when it comes to Battlefleet games - they can covert genuinely great looking ships out of their bitz-boxes by just slapping together some 40K-scale weapons and greebles(Eldar require *slightly* more work than DEldar, Orks etc), while Imperium and Chaos ships pretty much have to be built from scratch out of plasticard and putty if you want them usable in GW events and to even vaguely resemble the originals.

another possiability is it'll start in HH, and then a 40k expansion will be released. didn't epic start in the HH and move to 40k with the armegeddon stuff?

The Horus Heresy was invented because GW didn't have the resources to build complete armies for multiple races in 6mm. Only when Space Marine and Adeptus Titanicus were proven to be successful did GW expand with the Eldar and Orks, followed by the rest of them.

BrianDavion wrote:
another possiability is it'll start in HH, and then a 40k expansion will be released. didn't epic start in the HH and move to 40k with the armegeddon stuff?

seeing as how the ships look in bfg armada 2, it is plausible that they design the modals to look like they fit in both eras

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Straight out the box, the Imperial and Chaos fleets are well-distinguished (Chaos ships are faster with more flexible weapon fire arcs, but are slightly less resilient, while Imperial ships are a little more ponderous, but have heavier prow armour. an Imperial fleet would want to close the range while keeping the enemy in its front arc, to present their armoured prow to the enemy and to break up their formations with torpedo salvoes and nova cannon fire, then heel over and open fire with close- range broadsides - or dive between enemy ships and utilise those broadsides - while Chaos wants to keep the range a little more open, and pick off the flanks and edges of the Imperial formation. Orks and Eldar are interesting additions to that basic split.

Chaos also has Carrier superiority, for those who'd rather play Midway / Pearl Harbor than Hunt the Bismarck!

shadowsfm wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
another possiability is it'll start in HH, and then a 40k expansion will be released. didn't epic start in the HH and move to 40k with the armegeddon stuff?

seeing as how the ships look in bfg armada 2, it is plausible that they design the modals to look like they fit in both eras

Well I mean the pictured ship is a Ship dating from the Heresy as it's the Macragge's Honor, a Gloriana-Class Battleship. Then theres the fact that most of the Chaos Fleet would be ships from that time and that most of the Imperial Ships are at least based on older designs.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Then you'll be taking a pass on both.

You are probably right. I was really excited about the return of Specialist Games, as I always felt they were some of the best games GW ever made. I'd be all over a rerelease of BFG or Epic set in the 40K (or 41K?) universe but I have zero interest in the Heresy era. I always considered it an interesting backstory for 40K but I've never had any interest in gaming it. I was right there with Necromunda, because I used to play both Esher and Goliath, so I was set with the starter box. On the other hand, I'm still waiting on BB until they release the Lizarman team, as that was the only one I ever played.

TBH I think 40K players vastly overestimate how much of the HH series' success is down to them, you see the same thing in every discussion about the 7th/8th rules transition with 40K players who sometimes use a 30K army list declaring "Heresy gaming" dead, when the fact is they were never "Heresy gaming" in the first place they were playing 40K with a FW army list, no different than DKoK or Badab Astral Claws.

You could be right. I have no idea what the actual numbers are of people actually playing HH, all I can say is I don't know anyone who does and I do know people who bough the box set to use the minis in 40K. I'm not really plugged into the 40K scene right now, though, and I'm just going on what I see at my FLGS.

As for Battlefleet: Heresy and AT being boring - I mean, that's what folk said about full-size Heresy, it did fine.

I'm just speaking for myself there, I find the whole Heresy era boring. I hope Battlefleet Heresy is a huge success for GW, but I won't be playing it as personally, I'm not interested in the Heresy era. I'll just keep playing the occasional game of Classical BFG using my existing fleets. If they eventually expand the game beyond marines vs marines and start including xenos fleets, I may jump in at that point but I won't be pre-ordering the initial game.

I am curious to see what everything will look like, whether we will get plastic Eldar fleet, or not.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I am curious to see what everything will look like, whether we will get plastic Eldar fleet, or not.

I am afraid not, given the fact that what little rumour we have heard so far indicates it will be set in the Heresy like Adeptus Titanicus.
I hope it will be set in 40k though. I love 30k, but the lack of variety makes it get boring very quickly. I want to see Eldar and Orks too.

 mdauben wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
Then you'll be taking a pass on both.

You are probably right. I was really excited about the return of Specialist Games, as I always felt they were some of the best games GW ever made. I'd be all over a rerelease of BFG or Epic set in the 40K (or 41K?) universe but I have zero interest in the Heresy era. I always considered it an interesting backstory for 40K but I've never had any interest in gaming it. I was right there with Necromunda, because I used to play both Esher and Goliath, so I was set with the starter box. On the other hand, I'm still waiting on BB until they release the Lizarman team, as that was the only one I ever played.

TBH I think 40K players vastly overestimate how much of the HH series' success is down to them, you see the same thing in every discussion about the 7th/8th rules transition with 40K players who sometimes use a 30K army list declaring "Heresy gaming" dead, when the fact is they were never "Heresy gaming" in the first place they were playing 40K with a FW army list, no different than DKoK or Badab Astral Claws.

You could be right. I have no idea what the actual numbers are of people actually playing HH, all I can say is I don't know anyone who does and I do know people who bough the box set to use the minis in 40K. I'm not really plugged into the 40K scene right now, though, and I'm just going on what I see at my FLGS.

As for Battlefleet: Heresy and AT being boring - I mean, that's what folk said about full-size Heresy, it did fine.

I'm just speaking for myself there, I find the whole Heresy era boring. I hope Battlefleet Heresy is a huge success for GW, but I won't be playing it as personally, I'm not interested in the Heresy era. I'll just keep playing the occasional game of Classical BFG using my existing fleets. If they eventually expand the game beyond marines vs marines and start including xenos fleets, I may jump in at that point but I won't be pre-ordering the initial game.

Ah fair enough, I misread your words as being more general.

Personally I quite like the Heresy, but even if I didn't I wouldn't write things off entirely just yet - I suspect that between the Armada Imperialis generally and the more Legion-flavoured ships both generally and for specific Legions, the models and playstyle variation should be at least equivalent to the Imperial and Chaos fleets from BFG(then you have actual Chaos-y type stuff for latter-Heresy era fleets, and Mechanicum fleets), and depending on how they treat the rules you might be able to just start using Xenos fleets right away using the old lists(Blood Bowl), or at worst do some house ruling to bring them into line assuming you like any changes they choose to make. Hell, if they do change the rules up they might do something similar to the Legacy Gangs pdf.

I also suspect Xenos stuff would show up sooner than later with BFH - unlike with Necromunda and AT, there aren't really very many places to go once you hit up the "big three" of the Heresy(goodie Marines, baddie Marines, and Mechanicum). Assuming they offer similar model variety and fleet compositions as before, plastic-wise we can probably eventually expect battleship, cruiser pair, perhaps two boxes each containing a squadron of one type of light cruiser or escort, and the rest would be resin so that's only 4-8 plastic releases and I'd wager at least a couple of them would be in the starter box and released at the same time. Assuming they also did Mechanicum in plastic, and also a second style of Armada ships, that's a year's worth if they reeeeeeeeeeally stretch it, even less if they stick to just cruisers in plastic and the rest in resin. There's lots of other minifactions in the Heresy era Imperium but they either don't have ships of their own, use the same ships as the Legions/Armada, or have their own super-duper-special ships that are incredibly rare and don't justify a plastic release.

With Necromunda there's Outlanders and half a dozen other big locations to visit that can include both new and original gangs, with AT once you've exhausted Knights and Titans you can always expand into Epic territory with ground vehicles and even infantry. With Battlefleet Heresy the only path I can see to keep it as a going concern is to go beyond the Heresy - I could see them using the first year to set up a really solid Heresy fleet range that would also double as Imperial/Mechanicus/Chaos in the broader setting, then broadening the game out to the wider 40K timeline(personally I'd be as turned off by 41K as you are by Heresy, but as long as they don't magically invent Primaris Primaricruisers and Primariscorts out of nowhere I can try to ignore the daft storyline) and continuing to add Heresy-era gaming content in the Black Books.

Of course they could just do a one-and-done thing with Heresy-era and move on to a different game, but they seem committed to doing the Specialist Games justice this time around so you'd hope not.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I am curious to see what everything will look like, whether we will get plastic Eldar fleet, or not.

I am afraid not,

I want to see Eldar and Orks too.

Boring. No Eldars, no money.

let's wait until we get more information before jumping to conclusions

 Yodhrin wrote:

 mdauben wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
Then you'll be taking a pass on both.

You are probably right. I was really excited about the return of Specialist Games, as I always felt they were some of the best games GW ever made. I'd be all over a rerelease of BFG or Epic set in the 40K (or 41K?) universe but I have zero interest in the Heresy era. I always considered it an interesting backstory for 40K but I've never had any interest in gaming it. I was right there with Necromunda, because I used to play both Esher and Goliath, so I was set with the starter box. On the other hand, I'm still waiting on BB until they release the Lizarman team, as that was the only one I ever played.

TBH I think 40K players vastly overestimate how much of the HH series' success is down to them, you see the same thing in every discussion about the 7th/8th rules transition with 40K players who sometimes use a 30K army list declaring "Heresy gaming" dead, when the fact is they were never "Heresy gaming" in the first place they were playing 40K with a FW army list, no different than DKoK or Badab Astral Claws.

You could be right. I have no idea what the actual numbers are of people actually playing HH, all I can say is I don't know anyone who does and I do know people who bough the box set to use the minis in 40K. I'm not really plugged into the 40K scene right now, though, and I'm just going on what I see at my FLGS.

As for Battlefleet: Heresy and AT being boring - I mean, that's what folk said about full-size Heresy, it did fine.

I'm just speaking for myself there, I find the whole Heresy era boring. I hope Battlefleet Heresy is a huge success for GW, but I won't be playing it as personally, I'm not interested in the Heresy era. I'll just keep playing the occasional game of Classical BFG using my existing fleets. If they eventually expand the game beyond marines vs marines and start including xenos fleets, I may jump in at that point but I won't be pre-ordering the initial game.

Ah fair enough, I misread your words as being more general.

Personally I quite like the Heresy, but even if I didn't I wouldn't write things off entirely just yet - I suspect that between the Armada Imperialis generally and the more Legion-flavoured ships both generally and for specific Legions, the models and playstyle variation should be at least equivalent to the Imperial and Chaos fleets from BFG(then you have actual Chaos-y type stuff for latter-Heresy era fleets, and Mechanicum fleets), and depending on how they treat the rules you might be able to just start using Xenos fleets right away using the old lists(Blood Bowl), or at worst do some house ruling to bring them into line assuming you like any changes they choose to make. Hell, if they do change the rules up they might do something similar to the Legacy Gangs pdf.

I also suspect Xenos stuff would show up sooner than later with BFH - unlike with Necromunda and AT, there aren't really very many places to go once you hit up the "big three" of the Heresy(goodie Marines, baddie Marines, and Mechanicum). Assuming they offer similar model variety and fleet compositions as before, plastic-wise we can probably eventually expect battleship, cruiser pair, perhaps two boxes each containing a squadron of one type of light cruiser or escort, and the rest would be resin so that's only 4-8 plastic releases and I'd wager at least a couple of them would be in the starter box and released at the same time. Assuming they also did Mechanicum in plastic, and also a second style of Armada ships, that's a year's worth if they reeeeeeeeeeally stretch it, even less if they stick to just cruisers in plastic and the rest in resin. There's lots of other minifactions in the Heresy era Imperium but they either don't have ships of their own, use the same ships as the Legions/Armada, or have their own super-duper-special ships that are incredibly rare and don't justify a plastic release.

With Necromunda there's Outlanders and half a dozen other big locations to visit that can include both new and original gangs, with AT once you've exhausted Knights and Titans you can always expand into Epic territory with ground vehicles and even infantry. With Battlefleet Heresy the only path I can see to keep it as a going concern is to go beyond the Heresy - I could see them using the first year to set up a really solid Heresy fleet range that would also double as Imperial/Mechanicus/Chaos in the broader setting, then broadening the game out to the wider 40K timeline(personally I'd be as turned off by 41K as you are by Heresy, but as long as they don't magically invent Primaris Primaricruisers and Primariscorts out of nowhere I can try to ignore the daft storyline) and continuing to add Heresy-era gaming content in the Black Books.

Of course they could just do a one-and-done thing with Heresy-era and move on to a different game, but they seem committed to doing the Specialist Games justice this time around so you'd hope not.

you might say you'd be turned off by 41k but I suspect practially you'd not see much differance beyond fluff talking about battles etc and yeah MAYBE a new ship that's fluffed as just that, new. but I doubt it unless Gulliman ordered some type of new cruiser to support the Indomatus crusade. and even then that could be kinda cool if they gave us a new design, called it the "Indomatus cruiser" and made it a ship based around a differant philoposy, but not nesscarily more effective

whereas I can understand the distaste for using HH as the backdrop, I would hope they play to the different chapters at the very least. Include famous ships from each chapter. Have special 'upgrade' packs to customize as any of the 20 chapters. Give special rules, such as turbo boosted blood angel ships, and Giant space melta cannons for the Salamanders. If it's just, 'This same set of things, vs, this other same set', It's basically playing chess. I've always liked the idea of capital ship warfare games (ie, BG, SF, Star Wars Armada, etc), but if all the factions are too similar, many people will not be as into it.

BrianDavion wrote:


you might say you'd be turned off by 41k but I suspect practially you'd not see much differance beyond fluff talking about battles etc and yeah MAYBE a new ship that's fluffed as just that, new. but I doubt it unless Gulliman ordered some type of new cruiser to support the Indomatus crusade. and even then that could be kinda cool if they gave us a new design, called it the "Indomatus cruiser" and made it a ship based around a differant philoposy, but not nesscarily more effective

i imagine all the models are new, like gloriana class hero ships. isn't that what they did with necromunda? and new simplified rules like they did with Wrath&Glory roleplay

shadowsfm wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


you might say you'd be turned off by 41k but I suspect practially you'd not see much differance beyond fluff talking about battles etc and yeah MAYBE a new ship that's fluffed as just that, new. but I doubt it unless Gulliman ordered some type of new cruiser to support the Indomatus crusade. and even then that could be kinda cool if they gave us a new design, called it the "Indomatus cruiser" and made it a ship based around a differant philoposy, but not nesscarily more effective

i imagine all the models are new, like gloriana class hero ships. isn't that what they did with necromunda? and new simplified rules like they did with Wrath&Glory roleplay

hard to say till see see it. no matter what the era I suspect we will indeed see Glorina's. since the first BFG Horus' old flagship has been given a name etc. and I'd expect as 40k set game for example to alrgely forget about the plant killer in favor of vengeful spirit.

BrianDavion wrote:

you might say you'd be turned off by 41k but I suspect practially you'd not see much differance beyond fluff talking about battles etc and yeah MAYBE a new ship that's fluffed as just that, new. but I doubt it unless Gulliman ordered some type of new cruiser to support the Indomatus crusade. and even then that could be kinda cool if they gave us a new design, called it the "Indomatus cruiser" and made it a ship based around a differant philoposy, but not nesscarily more effective

See, that sounds like exactly the sort of thing why I say I'd be turned off by 41K - I don't want Imperial stuff to be designed with a different philosophy, I don't want it designed at all, I liked the Imperium as a backwards, regressive, ignorant society in terminal decline where innovation was heresy. I liked the idea that "new" stuff was just cheap, shoddy knock-offs of the far superior old stuff, and anything worthwhile was millennia old.

And while yes, nobody is forcing me to collect any of the new stuff, it's not like you can avoid dealing with Guilliman or Primaris in 40K, so there's no reason to think whatever newshiny stuff they would use a 41K setting as the excuse to include wouldn't be designed to be just as ubiquitous.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Personally I quite like the Heresy, but even if I didn't I wouldn't write things off entirely just yet - I suspect that between the Armada Imperialis generally and the more Legion-flavoured ships both generally and for specific Legions, the models and playstyle variation should be at least equivalent to the Imperial and Chaos fleets from BFG(then you have actual Chaos-y type stuff for latter-Heresy era fleets, and Mechanicum fleets),

You could be right. When they finally do release it, I might see the Mechanicum fleet, or one of the Legion-specific marine fleet and fall in love with it.

and depending on how they treat the rules you might be able to just start using Xenos fleets right away using the old lists(Blood Bowl), or at worst do some house ruling to bring them into line assuming you like any changes they choose to make. Hell, if they do change the rules up they might do something similar to the Legacy Gangs pdf.

The thing is I'm a MODELER/gamer, so its new models that get me excited. I've actually got multiple fleets of the old ships for BFG and I can easly keep playing with them, but its new models that will get me interested in the new game. Just like NEC, I've got fair sized gangs for both Escher and Goliath already, but I was excited to get the new models.

 mdauben wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
Personally I quite like the Heresy, but even if I didn't I wouldn't write things off entirely just yet - I suspect that between the Armada Imperialis generally and the more Legion-flavoured ships both generally and for specific Legions, the models and playstyle variation should be at least equivalent to the Imperial and Chaos fleets from BFG(then you have actual Chaos-y type stuff for latter-Heresy era fleets, and Mechanicum fleets),

You could be right. When they finally do release it, I might see the Mechanicum fleet, or one of the Legion-specific marine fleet and fall in love with it.

and depending on how they treat the rules you might be able to just start using Xenos fleets right away using the old lists(Blood Bowl), or at worst do some house ruling to bring them into line assuming you like any changes they choose to make. Hell, if they do change the rules up they might do something similar to the Legacy Gangs pdf.

The thing is I'm a MODELER/gamer, so its new models that get me excited. I've actually got multiple fleets of the old ships for BFG and I can easly keep playing with them, but its new models that will get me interested in the new game. Just like NEC, I've got fair sized gangs for both Escher and Goliath already, but I was excited to get the new models.

I highly doubt they'll have legion specific fleets though I imagine they'll have a few important named ships for specific legions being made

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:
I highly doubt they'll have legion specific fleets though I imagine they'll have a few important named ships for specific legions being made

If it's plastic, how hard is it to produce a single "Command" sprue with Legion/ship specific bitz?

It's not.

GW did it for the IKTs, with the basic Knight followed by the bonus sprue.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:
I highly doubt they'll have legion specific fleets though I imagine they'll have a few important named ships for specific legions being made

If it's plastic, how hard is it to produce a single "Command" sprue with Legion/ship specific bitz?

It's not.

GW did it for the IKTs, with the basic Knight followed by the bonus sprue.

Hopefully the flagships of the legions will be special models. A simple command sprue won't be able to reproduce the Iron Blood.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:
I highly doubt they'll have legion specific fleets though I imagine they'll have a few important named ships for specific legions being made

If it's plastic, how hard is it to produce a single "Command" sprue with Legion/ship specific bitz?

It's not.

GW did it for the IKTs, with the basic Knight followed by the bonus sprue.

Hopefully the flagships of the legions will be special models. A simple command sprue won't be able to reproduce the Iron Blood.

Spoiler:

I guess that'll have to be handled by Forgeworld Resin, where cost is no obstacle to the true fan,

I loathe those mixed style ships, which were a ham-fisted way to try and merge the two design aesthetics of the original BFG Imperial and Chaos fleets to show a common heritage. Instead of an actual attempt to show shared design characteristics, we just got a Frankenstein's mash up of different ship parts.

Yeah, those ships look awful.

Eeeewwwwwwww. Spiketbits.

Can anyone share the info without me giving [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the mashup......pretty sure the Great Crusade was very much ‘mend and make do’, so they suit the setting.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Eeeewwwwwwww. Spiketbits.

Can anyone share the info without me giving that [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the mashup......pretty sure the Great Crusade was very much ‘mend and make do’, so they suit the setting.

They would have done better to show perhaps differing competing schools of design like in the original BFG, instead of the mash-up of ship parts, because they just don't blend together at all. Of course the RL reason was probably because it was a low budget minimum effort as during that period of time, BFG was on life support. Just transplanting part A from Chaos cruisers then part B from Imperial cruisers was probably easier than having to design something from the ground up.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
I dunno. Most of my own sources on this subject have been 'mysteriously silent' on the subject, which I take to mean they're busy writing the rules.

Extremely unlikely, I'd say they've got hands full with BB and Necromunda launches and then there will be Adeptus Titanicus after that, it's a small niche team operating under FW's umbrella, I really doubt they've done anything more than said 'Yes, we'll be doing BFG at some stage' and that's about it.

I'd strongly say that.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Extremely unlikely, I'd say they've got hands full with BB and Necromunda launches and then there will be Adeptus Titanicus

Except these guys write none of those. A long time ago, GW set in place a specifically BFG team. All the guys on that used to be on that team are suddenly in 'Silent Running' mode.

And if those guys are writing it, the HH angle is well and truly sunk. It would be Battlefleet GOTHIC not Battlefleet HERESY.