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But the imperium is original. Sure, its parts are nothing new but how they are combined is just the level of insanity that is all completely new and originality and joy.
There is nothing else in ANY fiction that is like the imperium of 40k. Man...
No way. The Imperium and the Emperor 100% rip off Frank Herbert's Dune.
So...I assume that is sarcasm, since the imperium romanum, Julius Cesar, and roman legions didn't happen a little bit before Dune? ;-]
The words imperium, emperor, legion are latin words from the roman empire.
So...I assume that is sarcasm, since the imperium romanum, Julius Cesar, and roman legions didn't happen a little bit before Dune? ;-]
The words imperium, emperor, legion are latin words from the roman empire.
No, the whole Back Story of the AdMech, the Emperors modified super soldiers, what happend between M2-M30, with navigators being the only ones who can bring ships from A to B etc is more or less a copy & paste of Dune
even some artworks are directly inspired by the never made first Dune movie
Yes, the archetypes of the Marine Chapters are 1:1 from history where UM being Romans in Space with SW being Vikings.
But most stuff that people are referring being unique in 40k is from Dune and the rest ist Starship Troopers mixed with BattleTech
actually all SciFi elements are from somewhere else and the unique part is low/dark Fantasy in Space (to be different from Star Wars which is more High Fantasy in Space)
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
But the imperium is original. Sure, its parts are nothing new but how they are combined is just the level of insanity that is all completely new and originality and joy.
There is nothing else in ANY fiction that is like the imperium of 40k. Man...
No way. The Imperium and the Emperor 100% rip off Frank Herbert's Dune.
So...I assume that is sarcasm, since the imperium romanum, Julius Cesar, and roman legions didn't happen a little bit before Dune? ;-]
The words imperium, emperor, legion are latin words from the roman empire.
The Imperium of Mankind is very, very like the one in Dune.
Think of these elements: a distant, barely human God-Emperor, legions of super-soldiers trained on the harshest worlds, a guild of space navigators with a monopoly over space travel, a ban on thinking computers, and individuals developed in specialised roles to beyond--human levels.
Other bits are still kind of seen in the Imperium: worlds ruled by noble or great houses, for example.
The originality is not in creating new concepts (Nobody wants to hear about your galaxy of URwuag where the OKAkf fight the evil AUEWGHAEUGH, but they are actually all gas-based forms of life) but in arranging existing concepts in a new and interesting way.
Thats what warhammer did. Nothing in warhammer fantasy was original. Literally nothing. Everything was riped off from different sources. But at the same time, by mixing all of those different concepts, they did generated their own universe. There was nothing original about the Skavens or about Warhammer Chaos. The originality was born in how GW mixed both of them, for example.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Galas wrote: The originality is not in creating new concepts (Nobody wants to hear about your galaxy of URwuag where the OKAkf fight the evil AUEWGHAEUGH, but they are actually all gas-based forms of life) but in arranging existing concepts in a new and interesting way.
Thats what warhammer did. Nothing in warhammer fantasy was original. Literally nothing. Everything was riped off from different sources. But at the same time, by mixing all of those different concepts, they did generated their own universe. There was nothing original about the Skavens or about Warhammer Chaos. The originality was born in how GW mixed both of them, for example.
I'm not mocking GW for is unoriginal concepts. I'm doing the contrary, I'm praising them for collecting all of those concepts and mixing them in a engagin universe. (Now, I'll say, that is very hipocrit for GW to do things like claim that "Space Marines" is a trademark of theirs, but thats another issue alltogether)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/18 17:00:25
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Galas wrote: I'm not mocking GW for is unoriginal concepts. I'm doing the contrary, I'm praising them for collecting all of those concepts and mixing them in a engagin universe. (Now, I'll say, that is very hipocrit for GW to do things like claim that "Space Marines" is a trademark of theirs, but thats another issue alltogether)
I know, I'm agreeing with you! (I could have been clearer)
Ever read Moorcock's Hawkmoon: the history of the runestaff? The empire and emperor in that are really familiar.
That said, there's no real original idea anymore but their combination can be. And GW has been original with that. Like say the Kharadron overlords or the entire concept of the skaven.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/18 17:44:27
kodos wrote: Why is GW than going against anyone who re-arange existing concepts into something new?
I'd hazard a guess that it's because the people going against anyone aren't the ones who wrote the background back then, jeez they're not even the ones who write the background now.
Are the company as a whole massive hypocrites? Sure. Suits gonna suit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/18 17:55:36
kodos wrote: Why is GW than going against anyone who re-arange existing concepts into something new?
Because lawyers.
Look at the recording industry, everybody is suing everybody else for 'stealing' their music, when most of them stole their music from somebody who came before them. Here's a sample of songs that all use the same 4 chord progression:
The trick is to change enough stuff so that it counts as 'inspired by' rather than 'copied from'.
There is no such thing as 'original' fiction. Fiction is always derived from older fiction or the real world. Everybody who writes fiction draws inspiration from others. Otherwise it would not be possible to write fiction at all. However, there is a big difference between drawing inspiration from an other work and directly copying it. Directly copying something is actually illegal.
kodos wrote: Why is GW than going against anyone who re-arange existing concepts into something new?
Because copyright laws force them to. If they don't go after people who infringe on their IP they will lose the exclusive rights to their IP.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/18 18:02:35
AdmiralHalsey wrote:It doesn't help that every single major Imperial Guard faction is a direct historical copy.
2 Russians, Americans, Vietnam Americans, Victorian British, WW2 Nazi's, World War 1 Germans, Generic WW2 Germans...
It'd be nice if just one of the major regiments was something wholely orginal.
Admech is definately one of their better tries at orginality, though the 80's space robot theme is strong.
Catachans are 'Nam Americans, but I think that's the only American-ish regiment we've got, isn't it? There's Cadians (CAnaDIANS), which I guess is "American" in the continental sense. Don't know who the WW2 Nazis are, or the Generic WW2 Germans (Iron Legion?), though Krieg is WW1 Franco-German. Tallarn are just Taliban.
Elysians are somewhat unique, I guess. Mordians, perhaps?
Iron_Captain wrote: There is no such thing as 'original' fiction. Fiction is always derived from older fiction or the real world. Everybody who writes fiction draws inspiration from others. Otherwise it would not be possible to write fiction at all. However, there is a big difference between drawing inspiration from an other work and directly copying it. Directly copying something is actually illegal.
This is exactly it. Our oldest written stories were based on even older oral traditions, the roots of which are probably somewhere in the early Palaeolithic. Just look at the similarities between stories and myths from completely different parts of the world.
The Japanese sun goddess Amaterasu is hiding from the world and needs to be drawn out by another goddess dancing outside the cave she's withdrawn to. The same thing happens in an ancient Egyptian myth with the sun god Ra.
There are lots of parallels like this the world over. We humans are all copycats.
But the imperium is original. Sure, its parts are nothing new but how they are combined is just the level of insanity that is all completely new and originality and joy.
There is nothing else in ANY fiction that is like the imperium of 40k. Man...
The imperium of man is a combination of 1984, feudal Japan, and basic bureaucracy that then went on a space version of the holy crusades. There is nothing original about the way the IoM is all put together.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
AdmiralHalsey wrote:It doesn't help that every single major Imperial Guard faction is a direct historical copy.
2 Russians, Americans, Vietnam Americans, Victorian British, WW2 Nazi's, World War 1 Germans, Generic WW2 Germans...
It'd be nice if just one of the major regiments was something wholely orginal.
Admech is definately one of their better tries at orginality, though the 80's space robot theme is strong.
Catachans are 'Nam Americans, but I think that's the only American-ish regiment we've got, isn't it? There's Cadians (CAnaDIANS), which I guess is "American" in the continental sense. Don't know who the WW2 Nazis are, or the Generic WW2 Germans (Iron Legion?), though Krieg is WW1 Franco-German. Tallarn are just Taliban.
Elysians are somewhat unique, I guess. Mordians, perhaps?
Pretty sure that Tallarns came out before the Taliban were a thing, certainly before they were a widely known thing. They seem to be identified as an afghan mujahideen type thing, but to me they are much more like the WW1 colonial arab units a la Lawrence of Arabia.
Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
AdmiralHalsey wrote:It doesn't help that every single major Imperial Guard faction is a direct historical copy.
2 Russians, Americans, Vietnam Americans, Victorian British, WW2 Nazi's, World War 1 Germans, Generic WW2 Germans...
It'd be nice if just one of the major regiments was something wholely orginal.
Admech is definately one of their better tries at orginality, though the 80's space robot theme is strong.
Catachans are 'Nam Americans, but I think that's the only American-ish regiment we've got, isn't it? There's Cadians (CAnaDIANS), which I guess is "American" in the continental sense. Don't know who the WW2 Nazis are, or the Generic WW2 Germans (Iron Legion?), though Krieg is WW1 Franco-German. Tallarn are just Taliban.
Elysians are somewhat unique, I guess. Mordians, perhaps?
Pretty sure that Tallarns came out before the Taliban were a thing, certainly before they were a widely known thing. They seem to be identified as an afghan mujahideen type thing, but to me they are much more like the WW1 colonial arab units a la Lawrence of Arabia.
The Taliban were certainly a thing and had been for many years when the Tallarn unit was released and were fairly well know by people with an interest in international politics, they gave the USSR a bit of a pasting.
Pretty sure that Tallarns came out before the Taliban were a thing, certainly before they were a widely known thing. They seem to be identified as an afghan mujahideen type thing, but to me they are much more like the WW1 colonial arab units a la Lawrence of Arabia.
The Taliban were certainly a thing and had been for many years when the Tallarn unit was released and were fairly well know by people with an interest in international politics, they gave the USSR a bit of a pasting.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
As others have said, nothing is original any more. Everybody who's ever created any work of fiction has drawn from all sorts of influences, whether more subtly or in a blatant ripoff, and anybody who's created a fictional universe (be it fantasy, sci-fi, whatever) has used worldbuilding elements and themes that others have used before.
The beauty of 40k is that it takes influences from just about everything. The large group of designers and writers who have contributed to it have all pulled in their favourite bits of history, fiction and pop culture and thrown it all in the blender just to see what came out the other side. I see 40k as something that makes no effort to hide its influences, and just turns them all up to 11 while cackling madly.
AdmiralHalsey wrote:It doesn't help that every single major Imperial Guard faction is a direct historical copy.
2 Russians, Americans, Vietnam Americans, Victorian British, WW2 Nazi's, World War 1 Germans, Generic WW2 Germans...
It'd be nice if just one of the major regiments was something wholely orginal.
Admech is definately one of their better tries at orginality, though the 80's space robot theme is strong.
Catachans are 'Nam Americans, but I think that's the only American-ish regiment we've got, isn't it? There's Cadians (CAnaDIANS), which I guess is "American" in the continental sense. Don't know who the WW2 Nazis are, or the Generic WW2 Germans (Iron Legion?), though Krieg is WW1 Franco-German. Tallarn are just Taliban.
Elysians are somewhat unique, I guess. Mordians, perhaps?
I don't think Cadians are specifically meant to be from the great white north, they're just your generic modern-style solider that could come from any western nation nowadays, which is what makes them the most bland regiment and why they got the main line of plastics. The name's just a coincidence.
If anything, the Mordian Iron Guard are probably closest to 19th century Prussia. Armageddon Steel Legion are one that most people would associate with WW2 Germany, if for no other reason than the helmet design even if the rest of them isn't clearly German.
If I'm not mistaken:
Death Corps of Krieg = WW1 Germany
Armageddon Steel Legion = WW2 Germany
Vostroyan = WW1 Russia
Valhallan Ice Warriors = WW2 Russia
Mordian Iron Guard = Prussia
Maccabian Janissaries = Byzantines
Praetorian Guard = Colonial Britain
Tanith First and Only = Celts
Also, on Tau...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/19 00:01:52
Armageddon Steel Legion are one that most people would associate with WW2 Germany, if for no other reason than the helmet design even if the rest of them isn't clearly German.
Yep, Fallschirmjäger helmets, the smocks are quite similar. They do wear hessian boots, though.
Death Corps of Krieg = WW1 Germany
They're a mix of German and French stuff, like German helmets and French coats.
Infantryman wrote: Ah, the Maccabian Janissaries...remember seeing art for them and hoping they'd one day get models. Instead, fifteen years later, we're STILL ON CADIA
Better than Namic, I guess.
Maccabian Janissaries are the only regiment that would make me seriously consider Guard. They just look so coooooool...
Earth127 wrote: Ever read Moorcock's Hawkmoon: the history of the runestaff? The empire and emperor in that are really familiar.
That said, there's no real original idea anymore but their combination can be. And GW has been original with that. Like say the Kharadron overlords or the entire concept of the skaven.
Skaven aren't original either. Fritz Leiber wrote about a secret conspiracy of intelligent ratmen living under a fantasy metropolis in the Fafhrd and Gray Mouser novel "The Swords of Lankhmar" from 1968.
AdmiralHalsey wrote:It doesn't help that every single major Imperial Guard faction is a direct historical copy.
2 Russians, Americans, Vietnam Americans, Victorian British, WW2 Nazi's, World War 1 Germans, Generic WW2 Germans...
It'd be nice if just one of the major regiments was something wholely orginal.
Admech is definately one of their better tries at orginality, though the 80's space robot theme is strong.
Catachans are 'Nam Americans, but I think that's the only American-ish regiment we've got, isn't it? There's Cadians (CAnaDIANS), which I guess is "American" in the continental sense. Don't know who the WW2 Nazis are, or the Generic WW2 Germans (Iron Legion?), though Krieg is WW1 Franco-German. Tallarn are just Taliban.
Elysians are somewhat unique, I guess. Mordians, perhaps?
Tallarn weren't originally intended to be Taliban, but rather a mix of Lawrence of Arabia and the Desert Rats from WW2, so they're really Brits as well.
Mordians aren't Nazis at all. They're just generic dress uniformed troops, the uniforms themselves look like a mixture of Prussian uniforms from the 1870s and Soviet era parade uniforms. You can take Mordian miniatures and paint them to look like the French Foreign Legion, or you can fight the Zulus with them, they're really that versatile because the miniatures themselves do not represent anything specific.
Armageddon troopers wear German WW2 paratrooper helmets, but are otherwise impossible to pinpoint.
Elysians are just meant to be paratroopers, and they might be drawing inspiration from the British Parachute Regiment, also known as the Red Devils, famous from the battle of Arnhem, although they lack the red berets. The more recent Scions get berets though, and could be said to draw from the same source.
Krieg borrows heavily from WW1 Germans and French, combining the obviously French overcoat with a kind of German Stahlhelm and gas mask, although Krieg does veer more towards French than German. Guns such as Heavy Stubbers, Lascannons and Lasguns all have cooling fins typical of French WW1 machine guns, their tanks have the trench rails invented by Renault, the Death Riders are basically French cuirassiers (the HQ officer in particular), their uniforms are almost entirely French, except the gas mask and helmet. Grenadiers and Engineers borrow from the German Stormtroopers (the Engineers in particular). The Krieg mortars appear to be based on German and Hungarian models.
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