How are Grey Knights?

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**fraser1191**

Basically there a reason there's more marine threads saying they can't compete or do well overall than say Eldar players complaining or even guard

**meleti**

fraser1191 wrote:
Basically there a reason there's more marine threads saying they can't compete or do well overall than say Eldar players complaining or even guard

There's also way more Space Marines players than any other faction, so if those guys are anything less than the creme-de-la-creme of the competitive scene there will be a lot of complaining about how GW is ruining the game, or their army, or whatever.

**Xenomancers**

I've done really good with my GK. Then again I'm mostly playing them against harliquens/admech/daemons/space marines. We build competitive lists and they are fun games. It wouldn't be much fun to play them agianst tau/eldar/AM.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What creative freedom?

And the meta never shifts? They're not even effective vs Daemons!

About the only options I see are how many storm ravens/ how many GMDK/ Should I run a few Razorbacks? How about a storm talon or 2? Ehhh - I still have fun with them.

GK spank daemon ass dude - your weapons are hugely effective against them - nothing has an armor save better than 3+ (msotly just invos) and you have a huge amout of str 4 dakka (like probably more than any other army). Just spread your flat 3 smites around and don't trying to eliminate units - just let them sit with 2-3 models - then turn 3-4 destroy them all. The only thing that is scary is Greater daemons being brought back. But don't forget you are rerolling all wounds against them in the fight phase (this is a pretty big deal) and your +1 to deny really helps against them - My voldus has killed the same KOS 3 times in a single game before. Hilarious.

**Marmatag**

No self respecting Chaos player should lose to Grey Knights. The delta between these armies is unreal right now.

**Leo_the_Rat**

I beat a chaos player in the last event I played in. He had Mortarian, Magnus, Blood Thirster, Keeper of Secrets, Lord of Change and a couple of units. I effectively tabled him by the end of the game.

**Xenomancers**

Marmatag wrote:
No self respecting Chaos player should lose to Grey Knights. The delta between these armies is unreal right now.

How exactly? All GK weapons are basically the most effective weapons to use against low T invo save targets. Flat 3 mortal wounds are good at killing everything. Things like psilencers obliterate units like feinds and spawn and are very effecitve against even greater daemons as long as they don't have t8. The army does one thing well - it spams anti infantry firepower like a boss and it love armies with only invo saves because an armor save would have been even more effective.

GK's aren't even that bad of an army - they just don't do well in the crap fest that is tournament play - GK have to table you - they can't play objective game - they don't have the mobility or staying power. That's not to say they don't need help - they (like space marines) have gak psychic powers and stratagems that are clearly not cutting it.

**Marmatag**

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I beat a chaos player in the last event I played in. He had Mortarian, Magnus, Blood Thirster, Keeper of Secrets, Lord of Change and a couple of units. I effectively tabled him by the end of the game.

I am speaking in the context of competitive games.

**tneva82**

techsoldaten wrote:
[

tneva82 wrote:
techsoldaten wrote:
Remember, this is Dakka, the opinions expressed may sometimes be extreme.

I've played against GK regularly in 8th edition and had the impression they are good but for a few mechanics. Specifically, units are very expensive, Stratagems are not as useful as they could be, and there's a lack of long range firepower.

Lol. "They are good except for these that are the ones that make it sub-standard".

You just listed the problems GK have that turn it into mediocre army...

I was unaware a standard exists, but okay

If you take out all the problems unit has EVERYTHING is good.

Stompa is great but for few issues. It just costs too much, shooting is mediocre and it degrades too fast.

See? Now stompa, one of the worst units orks have, looks great. Just few problems. Which happens to be what makes it so lousy.

**Xenomancers**

Marmatag wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I beat a chaos player in the last event I played in. He had Mortarian, Magnus, Blood Thirster, Keeper of Secrets, Lord of Change and a couple of units. I effectively tabled him by the end of the game.

I am speaking in the context of competitive games.

Spamming Magnus morty and another big unit was one of the most effecitve armies about 3-4 months ago in "competitive" play. GK's would crush that shyt.

**meleti**

Xenomancers wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
No self respecting Chaos player should lose to Grey Knights. The delta between these armies is unreal right now.

How exactly? All GK weapons are basically the most effective weapons to use against low T invo save targets. Flat 3 mortal wounds are good at killing everything. Things like psilencers obliterate units like feinds and spawn and are very effecitve against even greater daemons as long as they don't have t8. The army does one thing well - it spams anti infantry firepower like a boss and it love armies with only invo saves because an armor save would have been even more effective.

GK's aren't even that bad of an army - they just don't do well in the crap fest that is tournament play - GK have to table you - they can't play objective game - they don't have the mobility or staying power. That's not to say they don't need help - they (like space marines) have gak psychic powers and stratagems that are clearly not cutting it.

Daemons players can just pay 2 CP and completely restore any unit GK destroy. What, you thought that 30 man unit of Bloodletters that you sacrificed half your army dealing with was actually gone? Nope, they're deep striking onto the table anywhere they want to go.

It's hilarious. GK are probably the worst faction in the game to play against Daemons because of that stratagem.

**Bharring**

There have always been more threads from SM players about how they're the worst book, at least as far back as early 6th. Even when they *were* top dog. I wouldn't read too much into it.

I think the only faction to give them a run for most "our rules suck" threads is Orkz.

Not to say today's threads are *wrong*.

**Xenomancers**

meleti wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
No self respecting Chaos player should lose to Grey Knights. The delta between these armies is unreal right now.

How exactly? All GK weapons are basically the most effective weapons to use against low T invo save targets. Flat 3 mortal wounds are good at killing everything. Things like psilencers obliterate units like feinds and spawn and are very effecitve against even greater daemons as long as they don't have t8. The army does one thing well - it spams anti infantry firepower like a boss and it love armies with only invo saves because an armor save would have been even more effective.

GK's aren't even that bad of an army - they just don't do well in the crap fest that is tournament play - GK have to table you - they can't play objective game - they don't have the mobility or staying power. That's not to say they don't need help - they (like space marines) have gak psychic powers and stratagems that are clearly not cutting it.

Daemons players can just pay 2 CP and completely restore any unit GK destroy. What, you thought that 30 man unit of Bloodletters that you sacrificed half your army dealing with was actually gone? Nope, they're deep striking onto the table anywhere they want to go.

It's hilarious. GK are probably the worst faction in the game to play against Daemons because of that stratagem.

It has much less of an effect than you think it would. This is what I originally thought as well. Daemon armies aren't pumping out tons of command points ether. It's pretty dumb that they can bring back a lord of change but there are so many daemon units dying a turn against GK they needed something. If you build your daemon list specifically to abuse the stratagem and just took supreme commands with some battalion command points with LOC or KOS or something it would be pretty hard for GK to beat it but your average daemon list is going to get spanked.

**Marmatag**

What in your mind is an average daemon list?

**Quickjager**

Xenomancers wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
No self respecting Chaos player should lose to Grey Knights. The delta between these armies is unreal right now.

How exactly? All GK weapons are basically the most effective weapons to use against low T invo save targets. Flat 3 mortal wounds are good at killing everything. Things like psilencers obliterate units like feinds and spawn and are very effecitve against even greater daemons as long as they don't have t8. The army does one thing well - it spams anti infantry firepower like a boss and it love armies with only invo saves because an armor save would have been even more effective.

GK's aren't even that bad of an army - they just don't do well in the crap fest that is tournament play - GK have to table you - they can't play objective game - they don't have the mobility or staying power. That's not to say they don't need help - they (like space marines) have gak psychic powers and stratagems that are clearly not cutting it.

Daemon players worth their gak don't use low T units. Poxwalker were until recently T5 with the codex synergy, Princes are ANYTHING but low toughness, The fact they are Daemons means having a power sword means gak because a chainsword is more effective. Psilencers are literally the most mathematically efficient gun in the codex after stormbolters but that doesn't make them good with 24 inch range on a model that pays for a power sword and stormbolter that you give up when you pay a point cost to get said psilencer.

I'm back from a trip, I'm in a thread about why Grey Knights suck. I KNOW they suck.

Fite me.

**Galas**

How they pay for a power sword and a stormbolter if they change it for a Psilencer?

**cuda1179**

You only pay for the weapons you are equipped with, not the weapons you give up. You don't pay for a storm bolter and sword if you take the psylancer.

**vaklor4**

Asking how Grey Knights are in 8th is like asking how a cancer patient is feeling.

**techsoldaten**

tneva82 wrote:
If you take out all the problems unit has EVERYTHING is good.

Stompa is great but for few issues. It just costs too much, shooting is mediocre and it degrades too fast.

See? Now stompa, one of the worst units orks have, looks great. Just few problems. Which happens to be what makes it so lousy.

By that logic, every unit sucks in comparison to Dark Reapers. You actually distorted what I said to the point where it's unrecognizable, bravo.

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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What creative freedom?

Honestly, that was a polite way of saying "when you don't use netlists, people like Slayer-Fan123 are not making decisions for you."

When I wrote that, I was thinking about the discussion you and I had about CSMs in the Chaos thread. Very impassioned argument not to use them. I did, 6 squads of 5 with lascannons, bringing my Black Legion army up to 25 Lascannons.

This list has worked very well, despite the hyperbolic 'advice' offered by some of the more vocal members of Dakka. Don't get me wrong, I love you man, I just don't love you telling me what to bring.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And the meta never shifts? They're not even effective vs Daemons!

GW has an opportunity to fix GK through an Agents of the Imperium book. I would not have a problem with running GK alongside Inquisitors and Assassins, like they were in Daemonhunters.

I don't think they are going to leave GK untouched for years, this is supposed to be the edition where they fix problems. Just getting some source of rerolls would make the army a lot more viable.

**Slayer-Fan123**

techsoldaten wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
If you take out all the problems unit has EVERYTHING is good.

Stompa is great but for few issues. It just costs too much, shooting is mediocre and it degrades too fast.

See? Now stompa, one of the worst units orks have, looks great. Just few problems. Which happens to be what makes it so lousy.

By that logic, every unit sucks in comparison to Dark Reapers. You actually distorted what I said to the point where it's unrecognizable, bravo.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What creative freedom?

Honestly, that was a polite way of saying "when you don't use netlists, people like Slayer-Fan123 are not making decisions for you."

When I wrote that, I was thinking about the discussion you and I had about CSMs in the Chaos thread. Very impassioned argument not to use them. I did, 6 squads of 5 with lascannons, bringing my Black Legion army up to 25 Lascannons.

This list has worked very well, despite the hyperbolic 'advice' offered by some of the more vocal members of Dakka. Don't get me wrong, I love you man, I just don't love you telling me what to bring.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And the meta never shifts? They're not even effective vs Daemons!

GW has an opportunity to fix GK through an Agents of the Imperium book. I would not have a problem with running GK alongside Inquisitors and Assassins, like they were in Daemonhunters.

I don't think they are going to leave GK untouched for years, this is supposed to be the edition where they fix problems. Just getting some source of rerolls would make the army a lot more viable.

Oh look, the "net-lister" fallacy.

THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE A LOT OF UNITS!

**tneva82**

techsoldaten wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
If you take out all the problems unit has EVERYTHING is good.

Stompa is great but for few issues. It just costs too much, shooting is mediocre and it degrades too fast.

See? Now stompa, one of the worst units orks have, looks great. Just few problems. Which happens to be what makes it so lousy.

By that logic, every unit sucks in comparison to Dark Reapers. You actually distorted what I said to the point where it's unrecognizable, bravo.

I used YOUR logic and showed how it's fallable. You said GK's are great except few issues. I said Stompa is great except for few issues. Both still suck though. Because those "few issues" GK/Stompa both suck and you stay the hell out of those if you like to win.

And btw there are units besides dark reapers that don't have few issues. You just need to stop thinking that every unit is great if you take away all their problems. If unit has problems and it makes it bad you accept that the unit is bad. If it doesn't have problems then it's good unit. Game has more than 1(dark reaper) good unit.

But you can't just remove bad sides of unit virtually and claim unit is great. That's dishonest.

**techsoldaten**

tneva82 wrote:
I used YOUR logic and showed how it's fallable. You said GK's are great except few issues. I said Stompa is great except for few issues. Both still suck though. Because those "few issues" GK/Stompa both suck and you stay the hell out of those if you like to win.

And btw there are units besides dark reapers that don't have few issues. You just need to stop thinking that every unit is great if you take away all their problems. If unit has problems and it makes it bad you accept that the unit is bad. If it doesn't have problems then it's good unit. Game has more than 1(dark reaper) good unit.

But you can't just remove bad sides of unit virtually and claim unit is great. That's dishonest.

You are using the word great. I never said that. I did say Grey Knights are good but for a few mechanics.

Good and great don't mean the same thing. Good but for a few mechanics doesn't really mean good either, it's a qualified use of the word. And I don't believe I've removed any of downsides of the army, I responded to the OP with an honest opinion having played against them with my Black Legion CSMs (who I would describe as great.)

But forget about my take on Grey Knights. Is there some point you are trying to make, inflating my comments like that? Because it really sounds like you are saying any army is worthless unless it consists of purely optimal choices and anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid.

Please forgive me for saying this, but this kind of narrow mindedness is absolutely stifling. I'm not sure how most people could enjoy 40k approaching the game with this mentality.

**Mrs. Esterhouse**

So disappointingly bad I quit the game. But it got me out of the money sucking blackhole that is GW.

So there's that.

**Neophyte2012**

Marmatag wrote:
If you're going to play GK you may as well be monofaction. Adding GK to a soup army immediately makes you less competitive, so just embrace the suck and run full on GK.

Well, I add a Supreme Command Detachment into my Ultramarine Guilliman list, to counter the smite spam and provide good combat support in addition to the Primarch. Though I still get defeated by Tzeentch Daemon Bridage everytime, but at least I can last till Turn 5 facing against 10+ "mortal wound generating psychic powers" throwing at me each turn, instead being tabled at around Turn 4. LOL

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Marmatag wrote:
Grey Knights in a nutshell:

4. Bad Smite. 1 mortal wound regardless and it becomes more difficult to cast. People will tell you that you shouldn't be casting smite with Grey Knights. It's really true almost all the time, unless you're facing daemons. But...

5. Daemons have a "feth grey knights" stratagem. They can pay a pittance (for them) and return a unit slain by Grey Knights back to the table, at no cost to reinforcements. This right here invalidated GK as a splash in if you're facing daemons. You are FAR better with Imperial Guard and Relic of Lost Cadia (which isn't one use only) to counter Daemons. It's utterly absurd that the worst thing to kill daemons with is Grey Knights. But it's true.

Exactly, my opponent always charge my GMNDK with a Tzeentch Flamer unit depleted down to the last model, or the Daemon Prince with its last wound. So they can get back to the field with full strength next turn. It is very very furstating as the "Daemon Hunter" are actually Daemon re-generator.

**Ash87**

Grey Knights got kicked in the teeth. The guy I play against regularly that's local plays them, and he went soup at the start of 8th to make up for them, because I stomped them across the board with big boots barely loosing a unit.

**Marmatag**

cuda1179 wrote:
You only pay for the weapons you are equipped with, not the weapons you give up. You don't pay for a storm bolter and sword if you take the psylancer.

The power sword costs 0. It's baked into the cost of the model... but you drop this wargear when you get the psilencer.

**Xenomancers**

Marmatag wrote:
What in your mind is an average daemon list?

Tough question - because they have a lot of variety. Your average daemon list is mostly horde though. You know - horde meta and all.

**Marmatag**

Ultimately GK problems won't be fixed by a change here, or there. It's a very, very poorly thought out and designed army.

Grey Knights really got the shaft in 8th edition. They just don't work in an edition that is designed like this.

If you actually main GK, there is no hope.

**wuestenfux**

Well, I play my GK army only with some support from AM for filling gaps.
AdMech would also be an option.

**Xenomancers**

Marmatag wrote:
Ultimately GK problems won't be fixed by a change here, or there. It's a very, very poorly thought out and designed army.

Grey Knights really got the shaft in 8th edition. They just don't work in an edition that is designed like this.

If you actually main GK, there is no hope.

I don't disagree with that - they have no chance against Eldar/AM/Tau type armies. I'm just saying do pretty good against daemons. Much better than in 7th. I got my ass kicked in 7th by daemons. Now that I can actually fight their monsters on the ground it is much better.

**GuardStrider**

I fully expect that what will be used to fix GK will be primaris units (both infantry and vehicles).

We didn't get any so far because the GK infantry is all unique to the chapter so they didn't want to add the "generic" marine units, I fully expect eventually there will be a unique primaris GK release to capitalize on the distraught GK players wanting to be competitive and cash in some bucks. Most likely after all codexes and they start releasing supplements/campaigns.