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 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Ultimately GK problems won't be fixed by a change here, or there. It's a very, very poorly thought out and designed army.

Grey Knights really got the shaft in 8th edition. They just don't work in an edition that is designed like this.

If you actually main GK, there is no hope.

I don't disagree with that - they have no chance against Eldar/AM/Tau type armies. I'm just saying do pretty good against daemons. Much better than in 7th. I got my ass kicked in 7th by daemons. Now that I can actually fight their monsters on the ground it is much better.

That was a byproduct of a poorly designed psychic phase and the introduction of mister warp battery himself.

GK were actually better in the context of 7th edition -for much of the edition- than they are in 8th, because their powers could actually be used to boost other factions, and they could instant-death hammer something into oblivion if they needed to.

Grey Knights weren't good in 7th, but they were better in 7th than 8th.

But they beat Corsairs!

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Ultimately GK problems won't be fixed by a change here, or there. It's a very, very poorly thought out and designed army.

Grey Knights really got the shaft in 8th edition. They just don't work in an edition that is designed like this.

If you actually main GK, there is no hope.

I don't disagree with that - they have no chance against Eldar/AM/Tau type armies. I'm just saying do pretty good against daemons. Much better than in 7th. I got my ass kicked in 7th by daemons. Now that I can actually fight their monsters on the ground it is much better.

That was a byproduct of a poorly designed psychic phase and the introduction of mister warp battery himself.

GK were actually better in the context of 7th edition -for much of the edition- than they are in 8th, because their powers could actually be used to boost other factions, and they could instant-death hammer something into oblivion if they needed to.

Grey Knights weren't good in 7th, but they were better in 7th than 8th.

GK were great in 7th when pairing Draigo with Tigirius and Gravcannon Centurions. It is a kind of "soup" in terms of 8th edition. And That was one very brutal combo which can take down the "toooooo OP" 7th edition Eldar Wraith Kinght or Tau Riptide Wing.....

In 8th? these kind of thing is kaput and now the best use of GK imo is only deny those Smite Spam.

Cent star was fun - but ultimately auto lose against daemons.

GK are garbage tier.

It is literally Codex:Grandmaster in baby carriage.

The psychic phase for 8th edition is laughable at best with ham fisted "fixes" that really leave GK sucking hard and barely functional.

Its offical, GK have been abandoned by GW as an "offical stand alone army".

It's sad.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Ultimately GK problems won't be fixed by a change here, or there. It's a very, very poorly thought out and designed army.

Grey Knights really got the shaft in 8th edition. They just don't work in an edition that is designed like this.

If you actually main GK, there is no hope.

I don't disagree with that - they have no chance against Eldar/AM/Tau type armies. I'm just saying do pretty good against daemons. Much better than in 7th. I got my ass kicked in 7th by daemons. Now that I can actually fight their monsters on the ground it is much better.

You know demons auto win vs grey Knights right? Demons literally regenerate units when fighting grey Knights.

 Galas wrote:
How they pay for a power sword and a stormbolter if they change it for a Psilencer?

Great question that you all pose. Allow me to show the evidence.

The base cost of a PAGK is 19 points + 2 points for a stormbolter.

The Force Weapon is "free"

However to upgrade to a psilencer is 4 points, meaning that you are paying for the privilege of LOSING your melee weapon. From this we can see that you are PAYING to have a horrible heavy weapon. This upgrade should honestly have been free as it does nothing but limit the versatility of a model to respond.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Annnd I see the other actual knowledgeable person regarding Grey Knights, Marmatag answered the question for me.

I know Grey Knights, I know their flaws and it hurts. I don't make claims about them because I am spouting hyperbole. They really are the shittiest codex and possibly faction in the game, the only other force that knows the pain is Deathwatch.

I wasn't doubting you Quickjager, I just was curious about that, now I know. Thanks both, you and Marmatag.

 Galas wrote:
I wasn't doubting you Quickjager, I just was curious about that, now I know. Thanks both, you and Marmatag.

No like I said it was a good question.

The fact a piece of wargear ISN'T separate is departure from every other part of 8th edition unit building.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I wasn't doubting you Quickjager, I just was curious about that, now I know. Thanks both, you and Marmatag.

No like I said it was a good question.

The fact a piece of wargear ISN'T separate is departure from every other part of 8th edition unit building.

no it isn't. marines get free bolt guns etc

Kinda bitter about how bad they are. I know last edition I picked up a few of them just to deal with demons in my Sm list. Now they are a liability vs demons and are with worse CC to boot compared to 7th. Only their I think they got going for them is storm bolters are rapid fire 2 now.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Galas wrote:
How they pay for a power sword and a stormbolter if they change it for a Psilencer?

Great question that you all pose. Allow me to show the evidence.

The base cost of a PAGK is 19 points + 2 points for a stormbolter.

The Force Weapon is "free"

However to upgrade to a psilencer is 4 points, meaning that you are paying for the privilege of LOSING your melee weapon. From this we can see that you are PAYING to have a horrible heavy weapon. This upgrade should honestly have been free as it does nothing but limit the versatility of a model to respond.

Ouch. Only reason that could be claimed to be fair is if psilencer was so good that it is fair now and the discount of power sword being lost is baked into the psilencers cost(ie if power sword wasn't included in price of model it would cost X but since it is it costs X-price of power sword) but then are there any models that can take psilencer that didn't have power sword? If yes there goes that theory.

Another reason GW should not have changed how points are calculated. This back of book is really lousy system and top of that GW ignored the one advantage it did have.

Unless your opponents go out of their way to make a terrible army, GK are just not worth it. They are pretty mediocre-miserable at everything they do.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
Unless your opponents go out of their way to make a terrible army, GK are just not worth it. They are pretty mediocre-miserable at everything they do.

They are only solid in offerring chances of denying enemy psychic. Which including them in will help your army not getting tabled before Turn 3 when against smite spam.

They really did draw the short straw, they were one of the earlier codexes of which some feel a little rushed.

This thread sure makes me feel positive about in 8th edition finally buying a 40k army after decades of wanting and having picked a GK one

 GuardStrider wrote:
This thread sure makes me feel positive about in 8th edition finally buying a 40k army after decades of wanting and having picked a GK one

Here's the thing, if you're a beer and pretzel gamer and you just want to kick back for a few hours every other week and roll some dice and that's your local metas attitude you will still enjoy the game.

 AaronWilson wrote:

 GuardStrider wrote:
This thread sure makes me feel positive about in 8th edition finally buying a 40k army after decades of wanting and having picked a GK one

Here's the thing, if you're a beer and pretzel gamer and you just want to kick back for a few hours every other week and roll some dice and that's your local metas attitude you will still enjoy the game.

Oh, I am enjoying and love the GK minis and fluffs. But it's also a fact that in 12~ games I have done since this edition kicked in I only won two, one vs Space Marines and another vs Orks.

 GuardStrider wrote:

 AaronWilson wrote:

 GuardStrider wrote:
This thread sure makes me feel positive about in 8th edition finally buying a 40k army after decades of wanting and having picked a GK one

Here's the thing, if you're a beer and pretzel gamer and you just want to kick back for a few hours every other week and roll some dice and that's your local metas attitude you will still enjoy the game.

Oh, I am enjoying and love the GK minis and fluffs. But it's also a fact that in 12~ games I have done since this edition kicked in I only won two, one vs Space Marines and another vs Orks.

Of which orks are among weakest armies ATM and marines aren't all that hot outside Guillimann build or raven guard gunline...

GK desperately need some buffs to even have decent shots at very casual games.

tneva82 wrote:

 GuardStrider wrote:

 AaronWilson wrote:

 GuardStrider wrote:
This thread sure makes me feel positive about in 8th edition finally buying a 40k army after decades of wanting and having picked a GK one

Here's the thing, if you're a beer and pretzel gamer and you just want to kick back for a few hours every other week and roll some dice and that's your local metas attitude you will still enjoy the game.

Oh, I am enjoying and love the GK minis and fluffs. But it's also a fact that in 12~ games I have done since this edition kicked in I only won two, one vs Space Marines and another vs Orks.

Of which orks are among weakest armies ATM and marines aren't all that hot outside Guillimann build or raven guard gunline...

GK desperately need some buffs to even have decent shots at very casual games.

Actually it was Raven Guard gunline which I beaten, though I was very lucky with the objectives

I had a strong start with them after the Codex dropped and everyone still had Indexes. I won about 8-10 straight and then stopped while they were still undefeated. Chapter Approved made my army list about 60 points more expensive and I haven’t tried them out since. I ran GKDK, Voldus, 3 strike squads in Razorbacks, a Stormraven, and about 7 Paladins. I had 0 board control or deep strike denial, and desperately needed to go first to chip away some enemy firepower, and I usually finished the game with about 5 models left, but it did win consistently for a few months.

If I compare them to my other army lists at 2000 points with other factions (Dark Angels, Sisters, IG, and Tyranids) it feels a lot less powerful but not hopeless.

YMMV

There is seriously so much wrong with Gk right now. Characters should have full smite. Terminators (all of them) should be reduced in price 20%. Heavy weapons should be half-price.

 GuardStrider wrote:
Actually it was Raven Guard gunline which I beaten, though I was very lucky with the objectives

Honestly, every army has problems, some problems are just nicer to have.

I have this opposite situation with my Chaos Space Marines, where I tone down my lists to keep things competitive in my gaming group. It's not always what I want to do, but my friends appreciate having a chance.

Part of what draws me to Grey Knights is the fact they are actually challenging to play. You don't just push up your best units and roll dice, you have to think carefully about each move.

For me, that's more enjoyable. I know I'm not going to win every game, but it's not like GK are an auto-lose. And there's always allies if I need to bump it up a notch.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Galas wrote:
How they pay for a power sword and a stormbolter if they change it for a Psilencer?

Great question that you all pose. Allow me to show the evidence.

The base cost of a PAGK is 19 points + 2 points for a stormbolter.

The Force Weapon is "free"

However to upgrade to a psilencer is 4 points, meaning that you are paying for the privilege of LOSING your melee weapon. From this we can see that you are PAYING to have a horrible heavy weapon. This upgrade should honestly have been free as it does nothing but limit the versatility of a model to respond.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Annnd I see the other actual knowledgeable person regarding Grey Knights, Marmatag answered the question for me.

I know Grey Knights, I know their flaws and it hurts. I don't make claims about them because I am spouting hyperbole. They really are the shittiest codex and possibly faction in the game, the only other force that knows the pain is Deathwatch.

A splinter cannon is what...10 points now? It has 6 1 damage shots - compared to the psilencers 6 d3 damage shots - poison and str 4 compare favoriable with each other...plus poison wounds vehicals on 6's instead of str 4 mostly wounding them on 5's. Clearly the psilencer is better than the splinter cannon. Essentially doing about double the damage on average to anything multiwound and breaking even overall against most units in the game that have 1 wound. So a fair cost is 10(or more).

A tactical marine is 13 + 10 is 23...which is the exact cost you pay for a Strike marine with a Psilencer. Don't know why you are complaining about the weapon anyways - it is a great weapon.


Base SS is 19 - so you are paying 6 points for a d3 damage +1 attack -2 AP weapon (fair price considering a power sword is 4 points) and you double the shots of a 13 point model for an additional 2 points.

Sounds like a bargain to me...unless ofc the 13 point model is only worth 10 points...So maybe the SS marine should cost 18. and a psilencer marine cost 20.

The issue is obviously base cost is what I am saying. Power armor across the board is about 3 points overcosted base.

You got to breakdown the cost of GKSS it kind of goes like this.

13 points for Marine without chapter tactics which is overcosted
1 point for GK "chapter tactic" psychic powers


5 points left to be distributed for a Force sword and Deepstrike.

I only can assume Deepstrike is cheap due to the proliferation of it on cheap models; the drop pod is an exception because you are being forced to buy an extremely bulky body. Sooo...

1 point for deep strike
4 for the Force weapon

then 2 points for the stormbolter
another 2 over the stormbolter for the psilencer itself

So about 8 points for it. For a 24 inch Heavy weapon that will have to move every turn it lives to fire. Compared to a splinter cannon which will be in a open top vehicle that is a very good unit in its own right. You compare A to B but ignore that A has its kneecaps smashed.

It doesn't matter that a weapon is good if the unit that carries it is a weird combination of overcosted and overgeneralized.

If the psilencer was assault, or it was on an actual good platform you might have had a point.

You also forgot to mention that the splinter cannon has 12" more on range and is a rapid fire weapon. I think that the poison rule is better than the S4 simply due to the fact that you're wounding non-vehicles on a 4 regardless of T. The S4 only has an advantage against non-vehicle models of T2 or 3 and loses to anything T5 or greater (there are more of the latter than the former). I will grant the psilencer is better at shooting at vehicles since there are a lot of them that would be wounded on a 5+ rather than the 6+ the splinter cannon requires. The other big thing is that the psilencer is usually going to be shooting at a -1H since it will probably have moved in the movement phase. Overall I'd say the splinter cannon is superior to the psilencer.

The splinter cannon isn't meant as an anti-vehicle weapon and DE have plenty of weapons that are meant for that instance. The psilencer is the best vehicle weapon that is available to GK barring the heavy Psycannon and the Gatling Psilencer only available to Dread Knights.