Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

w1zard wrote:

the ancient wrote:
Its doubtful they were doing anything the Emp hadnt/ wasnt.

The thing is, why was Valodor so keen to destroy them. Pretty sure Horus didnt say nothing to him. But he was right in Russes ear. Egging him on. If Russ had have shown one iota of him not being a barbarian, which they keep saying hes not.
Sails in system unopposed, circles home world unopposed. Better bring exterminatus then.
But the custard

Valdor hated Magnus' guts, because when Magnus broke the webway project a lot of Custodes died holding off the daemons from getting into the Imperial Palace. For his part, I think Valdor genuinely believed Horus when Horus said he was speaking on behalf of the emperor when he ordered Russ to kill Magnus. Both Valdor and Russ hated Magnus so much that they didn't even question it.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

No, read Thousand Sons, the Emperor did warn him, he said "you can never make a deal with the primordial annihilator and come out untouched" that is axiomatically a warning. I'll give you Angron and Mortarion, 3 out of 18 is not exactly good evidence. So what if he is bad at it, him being good or bad at it is completely irrelevant, he still lived for mankind, like the Emperor said, you can be omnipotent and omniscience, but you can't be omnipotent and omniscience at the same time. He knew he would lose against horus but still went to his fate and the golden throne, if he didn't do that for humanity, then who was he doing it for, hardly himself as he is tortured on the throne. The Emperor probably didn't know that chaos had plans to cause a civil war, so he wouldn't tell them about chaos. If you take the Horus Heresy out of the picture then not telling them of chaos is completely rational, especially after what he saw from the unification wars.

The emperor told Magnus to stop messing around with warp magic and sorcery while still doing it himself. Magnus saw it as hypocrisy that the emperor told everyone they couldn't use psychic powers or explore sorcery when the emperor was doing sorcery experiments and mucking about with warp magic in the Imperial Palace itself. The emperor's ruling at Nikaea was very much a "do as I say, not as I do" kind of thing. In fact I think the emperor basically said something along the lines of "nobody else seems to be able to handle the responsibility of psychic powers except for me, Magnus is proof of that. So from now on nobody is allowed to use these powers except for me."

Magnus and the 1k Sons also didn't understand that the chaos gods or daemons were a thing. They thought that daemons were "warp beasts" and that they were simply entities that lived in the warp. They were completely oblivious to the existence of the chaos gods because the emperor was still childishly pretending they didn't exist.

Exactly, its 'do as I say, not as I do'. He's the Emperor, and can do what he wants, regardless of being a hypocrite. He's a hypocrite boo hoo, That's what Kings and Emperors do, they do whatever they want or need. Magnus disobeyed the Emperor simple as, he sealed his own fate for his incredible arrogance, I don't have one shred of sympathy for him.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Exactly, its 'do as I say, not as I do'. He's the Emperor, and can do what he wants, regardless of being a hypocrite. He's a hypocrite boo hoo, That's what Kings and Emperors do, they do whatever they want or need. Magnus disobeyed the Emperor simple as, he sealed his own fate for his incredible arrogance, I don't have one shred of sympathy for him.

Calm down before you cut yourself on that edge buddy.

In all fairness, if my boss/leader/king/father told me that I couldn't do something that I knew he was doing, I'd ignore him just like Magnus ignored the emperor. Hypocrisy is one of the worst character flaws a person can have. It not only demonstrates selfishness but narcissism as well.

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Exactly, its 'do as I say, not as I do'. He's the Emperor, and can do what he wants, regardless of being a hypocrite. He's a hypocrite boo hoo, That's what Kings and Emperors do, they do whatever they want or need. Magnus disobeyed the Emperor simple as, he sealed his own fate for his incredible arrogance, I don't have one shred of sympathy for him.

Calm down before you cut yourself on that edge buddy.

In all fairness, if my boss/leader/king/father told me that I couldn't do something that I knew he was doing, I'd ignore him just like Magnus ignored the emperor. Hypocrisy is one of the worst character flaws a person can have. It not only demonstrates selfishness but narcissism as well.

Any edge is just in your perception bud, I'm not angry at all, just making the point that everyone is so butthurt over the Emperor. Yes Magnus ignored was going to reap the consequences and ended up getting even worse consequences. If the king said you can't do something that he does, sure you might be warranted in doing it, but you don't have the power to do it without consequences, the Emperor does. Magnus choose to be in the Imperium and follow his Emperor, so he should have done what he was told. The Emperor gave him a legion, it wasn't his. Magnus was arrogant and power hungry and that's it. Every other librarian in every other legion apart from the Wolves stopped using their power, are they going to miss their power less than Magnus? No and they took responsibility and stoped using their powers.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Any edge is just in your perception bud, I'm not angry at all, just making the point that everyone is so butthurt over the Emperor. Yes Magnus ignored was going to reap the consequences and ended up getting even worse consequences. If the king said you can't do something that he does, sure you might be warranted in doing it, but you don't have the power to do it without consequences, the Emperor does. Magnus choose to be in the Imperium and follow his Emperor, so he should have done what he was told. The Emperor gave him a legion, it wasn't his. Magnus was arrogant and power hungry and that's it. Every other librarian in every other legion apart from the Wolves stopped using their power, are they going to miss their power less than Magnus? No and they took responsibility and stoped using their powers.

If I remember correctly, the White Scars and Blood Angels pretty much ignored the verdict at Nikaea too.

Regardless, I've never argued that Magnus wasn't power hungry, or arrogant. He certainly was both of those. I have tried to argue against this notion that Magnus was a willing pawn of chaos before Prospero. He was not. In his heart and mind he was loyalist, along with his legion, up until Prospero at least.

Yes, he ignored the verdict at Nikaea and the emperor's warnings about delving into chaos, but if that is your criteria by which you judge him a traitor, then Russ, Khan, Sanguinius, and pretty much every other primarch except Dorn was a traitor as well.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:
They believed they were innocent but they'd been following Tzeentch's plan from day one. Even thier tutelary things from the warp are technically daemons right?

I mean, everyone was following Tzeentch's plan from day one. The god of schemes had everyone involved including Russ and the Emperor playing exactly into his hands.

No he didn't, Tzeentch is not omnipotent, lots of his schemes fail. The only one that see's the whole future is Kairos, Tzeentch can't even see the future as clearly as Kairos. Tzeentch also has no control of the followers of the other gods, the other gods obviously through a monkey wrench in his plans.

Obviously his schemes can fail, but this scheme in particular went perfectly and part of that was due to the Emperor's bad judgement at Nikaea.

Because it seems relevant from the other thread.


“That’s a complicated answer , right so the edict was planned before they found mortarion, we know this as mortarion is directly told by malcador, now this may seem innocent on the face of it, even reasonable, they wanted to curtail the power of psykers within the legions.

Then first lord of terra came out and gave a whole new slant on the motives behind certain decisions that the emperor and malcador made, the legions were eventually to be disposed of, curtailing the use of psykers would mean that it would eventually be easier to kill them off as in the long run... the psykers would have been mostly gone through casualties (assuming the heresy did not happen).

Now back to mortarion, he refused to take charge of his legion, malcador persuaded him to do so by promising that the edict would happen and the psykers he so hated would be dealt with.

So with all of that in mind, it seems clear to me that the thousand sons were set up to fail, but not Magnus, Magnus had a purpose and this is why the order was to bring him back to terra, while the thousand sons were disposable and rightly so in the context of eventually purging the legions.

Now here’s the other problem, Magnus made a deal, not sold his soul, with tzeench for knowledge on how to stop the flesh change, I get the impression that this information was a deception, tzeench just stopped the flesh change and Magnus believed it was the info he gained that did, just as planned, that’s just conjecture though, so after this deal Magnus was tainted but still in control of his actions, some time later Magnus met shaytan, a hideously powerful deamon that out matched even Magnus in the psychic department, without giving too much away Magnus had this deamon bound to his book, the one he varies everywhere, further tainting himself, and on and on Magnus went, constantly ignoring his fathers warnings, and eventually this led to the censure of the thousand sons.

That’s why the “magnus Did nothing wrong” crowd is so so wrong, Magnus though his own actions and choices caused his own downfall”

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Any edge is just in your perception bud, I'm not angry at all, just making the point that everyone is so butthurt over the Emperor. Yes Magnus ignored was going to reap the consequences and ended up getting even worse consequences. If the king said you can't do something that he does, sure you might be warranted in doing it, but you don't have the power to do it without consequences, the Emperor does. Magnus choose to be in the Imperium and follow his Emperor, so he should have done what he was told. The Emperor gave him a legion, it wasn't his. Magnus was arrogant and power hungry and that's it. Every other librarian in every other legion apart from the Wolves stopped using their power, are they going to miss their power less than Magnus? No and they took responsibility and stoped using their powers.

If I remember correctly, the White Scars and Blood Angels pretty much ignored the verdict at Nikaea too.

Regardless, I've never argued that Magnus wasn't power hungry, or arrogant. He certainly was both of those. I have tried to argue against this notion that Magnus was a willing pawn of chaos before Prospero. He was not. In his heart and mind he was loyalist, along with his legion, up until Prospero at least.

Yes, he ignored the verdict at Nikaea and the emperor's warnings about delving into chaos, but if that is your criteria by which you judge him a traitor, then Russ, Khan, Sanguinius, and pretty much every other primarch except Dorn was a traitor as well.

Not true, when you involve yourself with Chaos, you cannot take anything from them otherwise they take your sold Magnus did that and he managed to fight them but it even says in Prospero that it was a losing battle, and you are ignoring the fact that he 'turned'. I wasn't arguing that he's a traitor (which he absolutely is), he became a traitor not because he used sorcery, but because he 'turned' to chaos rather than accepting death, I'm arguing the original point that he wasn't innocent. As for the other Primarchs they started using psykers when they realised that they needed them to fight daemons, even Girlyman did but the important fact is that they didn't use sorcery, the Emperor didn't have a problem with librarians, he had a problem with sorcery, but like in Prospero burns he had to seem fair. And Magnus caused the wolves to come after him, not for ignoring the Edict, he broke the barriers to the Imperial dungeon and webway, he destroyed mankinds chances of survival without the Emperor, he destroyed the Whispering tower and millions of people on terra with his psychic backlash and fated the Emperor to sit on the golden throne, which has caused the high lords and the eccleciarchy to ruin the Imperium. That's the wolves went after him and not the other Primarchs for using librarians. Do you really think there'd be no repercussions... You cannot defend Magnus, its ludicrous and just biased because you like him.

Key point here guys for clarity, chaos is not the warp, the warp is not chaos, chaos cannot live without the warp, the warp can live without chaos.

There is a massive difference between delving too far into the warp and making a deal with the sentient warp storms that live in it.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Not true, when you involve yourself with Chaos, you cannot take anything from them otherwise they take your sold Magnus did that and he managed to fight them but it even says in Prospero that it was a losing battle, and you are ignoring the fact that he 'turned'. I wasn't arguing that he's a traitor (which he absolutely is), he became a traitor not because he used sorcery, but because he 'turned' to chaos rather than accepting death, I'm arguing the original point that he wasn't innocent. As for the other Primarchs they started using psykers when they realised that they needed them to fight daemons, even Girlyman did but the important fact is that they didn't use sorcery, the Emperor didn't have a problem with librarians, he had a problem with sorcery, but like in Prospero burns he had to seem fair. And Magnus caused the wolves to come after him, not for ignoring the Edict, he broke the barriers to the Imperial dungeon and webway, he destroyed mankinds chances of survival without the Emperor, he destroyed the Whispering tower and millions of people on terra with his psychic backlash and fated the Emperor to sit on the golden throne, which has caused the high lords and the eccleciarchy to ruin the Imperium. That's the wolves went after him and not the other Primarchs for using librarians. Do you really think there'd be no repercussions... You cannot defend Magnus, its ludicrous and just biased because you like him.

Yep, he did all of that. ON ACCIDENT. That is what you guys aren't getting. He was played by Tzeentch and manipulated into destroying the emperor's webway project unintentionally. He never intended to betray the Imperium and worked solely to help it up until he decided to start fighting the wolves on Prospero. Magnus wasn't even aware the webway project existed until he accidentally broke it.

You have to remember that nobody knew about daemons or the chaos gods yet. When Magnus made the deal with Tzeentch to stop the flesh change he merely thought he was dealing with an extremely powerful warp entity, not a literal god of lies and deception.

Let me put it this way... If a soldier in a ballistic missile command center in the U.S were to accidentally bump a row of controls and launch off a dozen nukes that wipe out the eastern seaboard of the United States and kill millions of people, he would not be a traitor. An idiot certainly, guilty of criminal negligence definitely, but it has to be INTENTIONAL for it to be treason. Magnus never INTENDED to betray or fight against the Imperium up until Prospero. The fact that he was unintentionally being manipulated into aiding chaos for a long time is irrelevant. After Prospero? Oh definitely a traitor. But before? Magnus and the 1k Sons were still loyalists. Loyalists that did more damage to the Imperium on accident then most CSM warbands could ever dream of, but still loyalists.

Just like the space marine chapters that were tricked into helping the astral claws fight against the Imperium weren't considered traitors when all was said and done. Sure, they were censured and made to perform penance crusades, but ultimately they were judged not to be traitors, just fools.

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Not true, when you involve yourself with Chaos, you cannot take anything from them otherwise they take your sold Magnus did that and he managed to fight them but it even says in Prospero that it was a losing battle, and you are ignoring the fact that he 'turned'. I wasn't arguing that he's a traitor (which he absolutely is), he became a traitor not because he used sorcery, but because he 'turned' to chaos rather than accepting death, I'm arguing the original point that he wasn't innocent. As for the other Primarchs they started using psykers when they realised that they needed them to fight daemons, even Girlyman did but the important fact is that they didn't use sorcery, the Emperor didn't have a problem with librarians, he had a problem with sorcery, but like in Prospero burns he had to seem fair. And Magnus caused the wolves to come after him, not for ignoring the Edict, he broke the barriers to the Imperial dungeon and webway, he destroyed mankinds chances of survival without the Emperor, he destroyed the Whispering tower and millions of people on terra with his psychic backlash and fated the Emperor to sit on the golden throne, which has caused the high lords and the eccleciarchy to ruin the Imperium. That's the wolves went after him and not the other Primarchs for using librarians. Do you really think there'd be no repercussions... You cannot defend Magnus, its ludicrous and just biased because you like him.

Yep, he did all of that. ON ACCIDENT. That is what you guys aren't getting. He was played by Tzeentch and manipulated into destroying the emperor's webway project unintentionally. He never intended to betray the Imperium and worked solely to help it up until he decided to start fighting the wolves on Prospero. Magnus wasn't even aware the webway project existed until he accidentally broke it.

You have to remember that nobody knew about daemons or the chaos gods yet. When Magnus made the deal with Tzeentch to stop the flesh change he merely thought he was dealing with an extremely powerful warp entity, not a literal god of lies and deception.

Let me put it this way... If a soldier in a ballistic missile command center in the U.S were to accidentally bump a row of controls and launch off a dozen nukes that wipe out the eastern seaboard of the United States and kill millions of people, he would not be a traitor. An idiot certainly, guilty of criminal negligence definitely, but it has to be INTENTIONAL for it to be treason. Magnus never INTENDED to betray or fight against the Imperium up until Prospero. The fact that he was unintentionally being manipulated into aiding chaos for a long time is irrelevant. After Prospero? Oh definitely a traitor. But before? Magnus and the 1k Sons were still loyalists. Loyalists that did more damage to the Imperium on accident then most CSM warbands could ever dream of, but still loyalists.

Just like the space marine chapters that were tricked into helping the astral claws fight against the Imperium weren't considered traitors when all was said and done. Sure, they were censured and made to perform penance crusades, but ultimately they were judged not to be traitors, just fools.

On accident, so what. He destroyed the future of the Imperium. Do you think the Emperor is just going to be like 'ach he did it by accident." Magnus knew about daemons, he fought one in the warp in Aghoru and fought two nurgle infected Eldar titans. This argument isn't about being a traitor, its about being innocent or not. You keep trying to frame it as 'he wasn't a traitor before because you can't justify the argument that he didn't deserve to be sanctioned. Magnus did more damage than the whole Horus heresy straight up until the 41st mellenium, without his arrogance, mankind would have the webway and not have to rely on the Emperor for faster than light travel and the throne is failing, so potentially he has fethed the survival of mankind.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
On accident, so what. He destroyed the future of the Imperium. Do you think the Emperor is just going to be like 'ach he did it by accident." Magnus knew about daemons, he fought one in the warp in Aghoru and fought two nurgle infected Eldar titans. This argument isn't about being a traitor, its about being innocent or not. You keep trying to frame it as 'he wasn't a traitor before because you can't justify the argument that he didn't deserve to be sanctioned. Magnus did more damage than the whole Horus heresy straight up until the 41st mellenium, without his arrogance, mankind would have the webway and not have to rely on the Emperor for faster than light travel and the throne is failing, so potentially he has fethed the survival of mankind.

He didn't know the things he was fighting were daemons, merely that they were "warp entities" like slightly more intelligent sharks that live in the warp.

You are essentially correct, he wasn't "innocent" in that he did a lot of "wrong" things. He was arrogant, he broke the rules, he ignored warnings, and agree with your assessment that he may have even doomed humanity to extinction. He completely deserved to be sanctioned at Nikaea, and brought back to Terra in chains after he broke the webway. But, he also deserved a proper explanation as to exactly why sorcery was dangerous that he never got from the emperor. He and his legion also deserved not to be treated like scum by the rest of the legions and their primarchs for simply having abilities that other astartes did not. He and his legion also, arguably, did not deserve to be wiped out by the space wolves. And before the battle of Prospero he was NOT a traitor.

What makes Magnus' fall so tragic was that he never had bad intentions. Everything he did, he either did for the Imperium or his legion. He was thirsty for knowledge, but that thirst was simply the desire to learn more about the universe around him and to better himself. He didn't seek power to rule over others, to usurp anyone, or to tyrannize. He sought power to help others, even if it meant breaking the rules. You can plainly see evidence of this behavior when he sacrificed his eye to stop the flesh change in his legion, and risked possible execution to warn the emperor about Horus. But, despite his intentions he ended up hurting everyone around him and damaging the Imperium irreparably, because he was being manipulated the entire time.

Magnus' fall can be summed up in the proverb "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Is there any more insight (heh) as to when and why Magnus lost his eye?

It’s also worth noting that the Magnus of 40k is NOT the same person as the Magnus of 30k, I mean this in a literal sense, he is missing a part of his soul and that affected his personality, essentially turning him into a different person.


As to his innocence, he wasn’t innocent, while he may have not called them Deamons he knew that these creatures were dangerous and not to be trusted (ref: primarchs Magnus, crimson king, a thousand sons) but still dealt with them, even after ignoring the emperors warnings, he bound one to his book and carried it everywhere with him, those are not the actions of an innocent man, but a man who thought he knew better than everyone else in the face of clear evidence.

As for the edict, it was designed for the sons to fail from the start, it did what it was supposed to do, had Magnus been brought back to terra as commanded then he would be sitting upon the golden throne and everything would have played out differently. It all went just as planned by the EMPEROR, we literally have no supporting evidence that tzeeench had any interference up until Magnus wanted his legion whisked away from prospero, anything on that subject is just conjecture.

 Formosa wrote:
It’s also worth noting that the Magnus of 40k is NOT the same person as the Magnus of 30k, I mean this in a literal sense, he is missing a part of his soul and that affected his personality, essentially turning him into a different person.


As to his innocence, he wasn’t innocent, while he may have not called them Deamons he knew that these creatures were dangerous and not to be trusted (ref: primarchs Magnus, crimson king, a thousand sons) but still dealt with them, even after ignoring the emperors warnings, he bound one to his book and carried it everywhere with him, those are not the actions of an innocent man, but a man who thought he knew better than everyone else in the face of clear evidence.

As for the edict, it was designed for the sons to fail from the start, it did what it was supposed to do, had Magnus been brought back to terra as commanded then he would be sitting upon the golden throne and everything would have played out differently. It all went just as planned by the EMPEROR, we literally have no supporting evidence that tzeeench had any interference up until Magnus wanted his legion whisked away from prospero, anything on that subject is just conjecture.

Come on. I think it's a little more believable that their fall to chaos was engineered from the very beginning by one of the chaos gods, especially sense Magnus had been dealing with one unknowingly since he was re-united with his legion (He bargained with Tzeentch to stop the flesh change). I think its kind of a stretch to say that the emperor intended the 1k Sons to fall to chaos after Nikaea, especially since he ordered Magnus' arrest and the legion to be disarmed, not Magnus' death and the legion's annihilation. Horus changed the orders on purpose.

And on the daemon issue. Yes, Magnus knew they were dangerous, but he had no way of knowing that these creatures were as dangerous as we readers know they are dangerous. Magnus simply viewed them as dangerous animals on the level of intelligent sharks. Remember, nobody at this time knew anything about the daemons/chaos gods because the emperor was suppressing that information. Even when the emperor warned Magnus not to dabble in sorcery he didn't really give a legitimate reason as to WHY Magnus should stop, he basically just kind of said "stop doing it because I said so" which Magnus viewed as hypocritical because he knew the emperor was performing sorcery and warp experiments in the Imperial Palace.

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
On accident, so what. He destroyed the future of the Imperium. Do you think the Emperor is just going to be like 'ach he did it by accident." Magnus knew about daemons, he fought one in the warp in Aghoru and fought two nurgle infected Eldar titans. This argument isn't about being a traitor, its about being innocent or not. You keep trying to frame it as 'he wasn't a traitor before because you can't justify the argument that he didn't deserve to be sanctioned. Magnus did more damage than the whole Horus heresy straight up until the 41st mellenium, without his arrogance, mankind would have the webway and not have to rely on the Emperor for faster than light travel and the throne is failing, so potentially he has fethed the survival of mankind.

He didn't know the things he was fighting were daemons, merely that they were "warp entities" like slightly more intelligent sharks that live in the warp.

You are essentially correct, he wasn't "innocent" in that he did a lot of "wrong" things. He was arrogant, he broke the rules, he ignored warnings, and agree with your assessment that he may have even doomed humanity to extinction. He completely deserved to be sanctioned at Nikaea, and brought back to Terra in chains after he broke the webway. But, he also deserved a proper explanation as to exactly why sorcery was dangerous that he never got from the emperor. He and his legion also deserved not to be treated like scum by the rest of the legions and their primarchs for simply having abilities that other astartes did not. He and his legion also, arguably, did not deserve to be wiped out by the space wolves. And before the battle of Prospero he was NOT a traitor.

What makes Magnus' fall so tragic was that he never had bad intentions. Everything he did, he either did for the Imperium or his legion. He was thirsty for knowledge, but that thirst was simply the desire to learn more about the universe around him and to better himself. He didn't seek power to rule over others, to usurp anyone, or to tyrannize. He sought power to help others, even if it meant breaking the rules. You can plainly see evidence of this behavior when he sacrificed his eye to stop the flesh change in his legion, and risked possible execution to warn the emperor about Horus. But, despite his intentions he ended up hurting everyone around him and damaging the Imperium irreparably, because he was being manipulated the entire time.

Magnus' fall can be summed up in the proverb "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Exactly so we are in agreement then.

No one in the Prospero incident was innocent.
-Magnus fethed with things he should have left alone.
-The Emperor fethed up by not explain thing clearly.
-The Thousand Sons fethed up by being arrogant
-The Wolves fethed up by being unable to see past their prejudice. Russ gave Magnus one chance to surrender then went hog wild and slaughtered a world, refusing surrender even from innocent civilians.
-And then there was Horus making everything worse.

pm713 wrote:

 john27 wrote:
Oh yeah one more thing, magnus encountered a daemon more psychically powerful than him called shaytan, which had a cult of the Morningstar, so to stop it he bound it to his book, it's basically implied that he was carrying satan in his book all that time so that's gonna be a lot of corruption

When was that?

In his primarch book.

 john27 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 john27 wrote:
Oh yeah one more thing, magnus encountered a daemon more psychically powerful than him called shaytan, which had a cult of the Morningstar, so to stop it he bound it to his book, it's basically implied that he was carrying satan in his book all that time so that's gonna be a lot of corruption

When was that?

In his primarch book.

Is it worth reading?

"Russ gave Magnus one chance to surrender "

Russ did try to give Magnus a chance to surrender. But he failed even at that. Magnus looked for a chance to surrender, but none were offered to him.

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
No one in the Prospero incident was innocent.
-Magnus fethed with things he should have left alone.
-The Emperor fethed up by not explain thing clearly.
-The Thousand Sons fethed up by being arrogant
-The Wolves fethed up by being unable to see past their prejudice. Russ gave Magnus one chance to surrender then went hog wild and slaughtered a world, refusing surrender even from innocent civilians.
-And then there was Horus making everything worse.

Essentially my view on the entire situation. Except the "Russ gave Magnus one chance to surrender". He did not. Russ sent a surrender demand to Magnus, but it never reached him because it was intercepted by a chaos agent posing as a 1k Sons plant within the space wolves.

In my mind it was even more evidence of Tzeentch's involvement.

To say that the 1k Sons' fall to chaos was entirely their fault is flat out wrong. It was helped along by Magnus' arrogance, but the seeds were planted with the Emperor hiding the true nature of chaos from the 1k Sons and the other legions' gakky attitude towards them, especially the wolves. The entire thing was engineered from the beginning by Tzeentch as a Xanatos Gambit to either destroy the 1k Sons or make them slaves of chaos.

w1zard wrote:

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
No one in the Prospero incident was innocent.
-Magnus fethed with things he should have left alone.
-The Emperor fethed up by not explain thing clearly.
-The Thousand Sons fethed up by being arrogant
-The Wolves fethed up by being unable to see past their prejudice. Russ gave Magnus one chance to surrender then went hog wild and slaughtered a world, refusing surrender even from innocent civilians.
-And then there was Horus making everything worse.

Essentially my view on the entire situation. Except the "Russ gave Magnus one chance to surrender". He did not. Russ sent a surrender demand to Magnus, but it never reached him because it was intercepted by a chaos agent posing as a 1k Sons plant within the space wolves.

In my mind it was even more evidence of Tzeentch's involvement.

To say that the 1k Sons' fall to chaos was entirely their fault is flat out wrong. It was helped along by Magnus' arrogance, but the seeds were planted with the Emperor hiding the true nature of chaos from the 1k Sons and the other legions' gakky attitude towards them, especially the wolves. The entire thing was engineered from the beginning by Tzeentch as a Xanatos Gambit to either destroy the 1k Sons or make them slaves of chaos.

Got to disagree with that

Kasper houser was not a chaos agent, he was just a normal man that had a subtle nudge here and there from a deamon embedded within his memory of leaving terra (clearly it was there prior to this), thats not a chaos agent, chaos agent implies that he was doing what he did on purpose, I am happy calling him an pawn though as that seems more apt.

Also, all we see from Kasper is his influence on the wolves, not the Tsons, they are the ones that were influenced by Tzeench if anyone, but again thats far too simplistic, Kasper is a strange one as he seems to be part of a paradox, Ahirman was the one that spoke to him and told him to leave at the start of Prospero burns, we dont find this out until Crimson king, so the very start of Kaspers woes was the Tsons interfering with time (for good reasons to them) to find another shard of Magnus, it seems that every time they screw with the warp, they sink a little deeper, there actions, through choice are what leads them to Tzeench, I am still yet to see any solid evidence that Tzeench actually had anything to do with Magnus's actions and by extention the Tsons, it seems that it was them that kicked off their own problems.

Think someone else here has already said it, but "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"

Do you have any citations that directly show Tzeench actually influencing anyone in the Tsons or Magnus in the same manner they have screwed themselves over? I am quite interested to see it if its there as its a big plot point that I have missed.

Bharring wrote:
"Russ gave Magnus one chance to surrender "

Russ did try to give Magnus a chance to surrender. But he failed even at that. Magnus looked for a chance to surrender, but none were offered to him.

They both failed at chances to surrender really. Russ tried someone he believed was a 1k Son agent but wasn't. Magnus didn't get the chance to offer himself up or anything. Apparently using vox didn't occur to Russ and Magnus forgot he was an incredibly powerful telepath.

Which makes me thing Burning of Prospero was introduced to the lore before anyone made details about it beyond Wolves burn Prospero.

 Formosa wrote:

... thats not a chaos agent, chaos agent implies that he was doing what he did on purpose, I am happy calling him an pawn though as that seems more apt.

Funny, that was the crux of my whole argument against calling the Thousand Sons "traitors" before Prospero.

Wasn't it strongly implied that Kasper was kidnapped from Terra by the ruinous powers and was essentially mind controlled and conditioned, and then had his memory wiped so he had no idea he was actually an agent of chaos?

It was also implied that the only reason Kasper was placed there, and Russ "conveniently" found information that painted him as a 1k Sons plant was so that when the time was right, Magnus would not get Russ' surrender demand and Magnus would be faced with the choice of either letting his legion be slaughtered by the wolves or joining Tzeentch. It was a long play, but Tzeentch sees all possible futures.

 Formosa wrote:
Do you have any citations that directly show Tzeench actually influencing anyone in the Tsons or Magnus in the same manner they have screwed themselves over? I am quite interested to see it if its there as its a big plot point that I have missed.

No, there is nothing in the lore to my knowledge that directly says "Tzeentch was responsible for all of this". But in either "A Thousand Sons" or "Crimson King" Magnus mulls to himself that the entire situation that led to the 1k Sons downfall was probably planned for a long time by someone or something, and that everything was just a little too neat and too convenient to be anything else than an elaborate plot.

pm713 wrote:
Apparently using vox didn't occur to Russ and Magnus forgot he was an incredibly powerful telepath.

Again, see my analogy about surrendering to Navy Seals who burst into your house and start shooting everyone. It was past Magnus surrendering at that point, the wolves thought that their surrender demand had been rebuffed so they wanted blood. Magnus contacting Russ telepathically would have been most likely treated as a psychic attack, and anything he had to say probably would have been ignored.

From 1d4chan:
Some head-scratching does arise at to why Magnus didn't: a) simply tell his Legion to lay down their weapons and try and talk Russ out of obliterating the entire world, (because if there's one thing Russ liked to do, it was have long, boring, tedious talks about how this was all just a misunderstanding, because Russ is such a great listener) or b) take the hara-kiri option, which would have at least brought everything to an end a little earlier. The common consensus is that Magnus was too proud to consider the idea of negotiating (especially with the brother he had always considered to be an ignorant savage), and while he was at first resigned to his end he ultimately could not accept the idea that all the lore and knowledge the Thousand Sons had worked to collect would be lost with his death. We also know that Magnus fully understood how bad the Emperor's millenia long plan was fethed up by his intervention on Terra, so the destruction of everything he had built and loved was a way to share his father's despair.

Horus in canon said he feared two legions more than any other. The Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons. What better way of removing your biggest fears by having them destroy each other.

 Generalstoner wrote:
Horus in canon said he feared two legions more than any other. The Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons. What better way of removing your biggest fears by having them destroy each other.

He also said in a short story that he feared pitting his legion against the lions and guillimans, thats why Calth happened and he made sure the Dark Angels were so far away in Thramas, (this part has conjecture) the Night Lords were supposed to keep them there and it would have worked had the lion not found Tuchalka.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

... thats not a chaos agent, chaos agent implies that he was doing what he did on purpose, I am happy calling him an pawn though as that seems more apt.

1: Funny, that was the crux of my whole argument against calling the Thousand Sons "traitors" before Prospero.

Wasn't it strongly implied that Kasper was kidnapped from Terra by the ruinous powers and was essentially mind controlled and conditioned, and then had his memory wiped so he had no idea he was actually an agent of chaos?

It was also implied that the only reason Kasper was placed there, and Russ "conveniently" found information that painted him as a 1k Sons plant was so that when the time was right, Magnus would not get Russ' surrender demand and Magnus would be faced with the choice of either letting his legion be slaughtered by the wolves or joining Tzeentch. It was a long play, but Tzeentch sees all possible futures.

 Formosa wrote:
Do you have any citations that directly show Tzeench actually influencing anyone in the Tsons or Magnus in the same manner they have screwed themselves over? I am quite interested to see it if its there as its a big plot point that I have missed.

2: No, there is nothing in the lore to my knowledge that directly says "Tzeentch was responsible for all of this". But in either "A Thousand Sons" or "Crimson King" Magnus mulls to himself that the entire situation that led to the 1k Sons downfall was probably planned for a long time by someone or something, and that everything was just a little too neat and too convenient to be anything else than an elaborate plot.

pm713 wrote:
Apparently using vox didn't occur to Russ and Magnus forgot he was an incredibly powerful telepath.

3: Again, see my analogy about surrendering to Navy Seals who burst into your house and start shooting everyone. It was past Magnus surrendering at that point, the wolves thought that their surrender demand had been rebuffed so they wanted blood. Magnus contacting Russ telepathically would have been most likely treated as a psychic attack, and anything he had to say probably would have been ignored.

From 1d4chan:
Some head-scratching does arise at to why Magnus didn't: a) simply tell his Legion to lay down their weapons and try and talk Russ out of obliterating the entire world, (because if there's one thing Russ liked to do, it was have long, boring, tedious talks about how this was all just a misunderstanding, because Russ is such a great listener) or b) take the hara-kiri option, which would have at least brought everything to an end a little earlier. The common consensus is that Magnus was too proud to consider the idea of negotiating (especially with the brother he had always considered to be an ignorant savage), and while he was at first resigned to his end he ultimately could not accept the idea that all the lore and knowledge the Thousand Sons had worked to collect would be lost with his death. We also know that Magnus fully understood how bad the Emperor's millenia long plan was fethed up by his intervention on Terra, so the destruction of everything he had built and loved was a way to share his father's despair.

1: I wouldnt say he was kidnapped, he went of his own free will, but he had a nudge here and a nudge there from the memory daemon (thats what I will call it), IIRC it was when he went to meet the 30k Cognitai and stared into that "eye of horus" that the Daemon likely entered his mind, it could have been much earlier though, it also seems that Ahireman remembers him when he meets him in the past, hence the "your name, is it a joke" moment at the start of Prospero burns and near the end of Crimson King... It is clear though that he was never mind controlled, that would be picked up by the wolves in short order as it leaves very clear psychic scaring (Ref: Ravenor/eisenhorn series) and a clear "mark" on the psychic architecture of the victim, the Goti would see that in a hot second.

Kasper was defo manipulated though, that goes without saying!

 Formosa wrote:
It is clear though that he was never mind controlled, that would be picked up by the wolves in short order as it leaves very clear psychic scaring (Ref: Ravenor/eisenhorn series) and a clear "mark" on the psychic architecture of the victim, the Goti would see that in a hot second.

Kasper was defo manipulated though, that goes without saying!

So memory manipulation would be picked up instantly, but being literally possessed by a demon wouldn't?

w1zard wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
It is clear though that he was never mind controlled, that would be picked up by the wolves in short order as it leaves very clear psychic scaring (Ref: Ravenor/eisenhorn series) and a clear "mark" on the psychic architecture of the victim, the Goti would see that in a hot second.

Kasper was defo manipulated though, that goes without saying!

So memory manipulation would be picked up instantly, but being literally possessed by a demon wouldn't?

See he wasn’t possessed by a deamon though, it wasn’t controlling him, it was hidden away deep in his subconscious within a memory, and it was picked up straight away, the wolves knew as soon as they got their hands on him that something wasn’t right, mind control and memory manipulation are much more overt, think of it like psychic surgery, it would and does leave scars on the psychic landscape of a persons mind, the more skilled you are the less scaring thier is, but it can still be found by another skilled psyker, so rather than risk direct mind control the deamon burries itself deep in the mind of its victim and let’s that victim make its own choices but with a little nudge here and there.

We have also seen powerful Deamons able to mask thier presence before, even to very powerful psykers like ravenor, he had a world ending deamon within feet of him and never knew, he went into one of his henchmen’s mind to calm her down and noticed the psychic scaring of the mind control/memory wipe and given the book was written by the same person it’s entirely fair to assume dan abnet intended for this consistency.

w1zard wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

... thats not a chaos agent, chaos agent implies that he was doing what he did on purpose, I am happy calling him an pawn though as that seems more apt.

Funny, that was the crux of my whole argument against calling the Thousand Sons "traitors" before Prospero.

Wasn't it strongly implied that Kasper was kidnapped from Terra by the ruinous powers and was essentially mind controlled and conditioned, and then had his memory wiped so he had no idea he was actually an agent of chaos?

It was also implied that the only reason Kasper was placed there, and Russ "conveniently" found information that painted him as a 1k Sons plant was so that when the time was right, Magnus would not get Russ' surrender demand and Magnus would be faced with the choice of either letting his legion be slaughtered by the wolves or joining Tzeentch. It was a long play, but Tzeentch sees all possible futures.

 Formosa wrote:
Do you have any citations that directly show Tzeench actually influencing anyone in the Tsons or Magnus in the same manner they have screwed themselves over? I am quite interested to see it if its there as its a big plot point that I have missed.

No, there is nothing in the lore to my knowledge that directly says "Tzeentch was responsible for all of this". But in either "A Thousand Sons" or "Crimson King" Magnus mulls to himself that the entire situation that led to the 1k Sons downfall was probably planned for a long time by someone or something, and that everything was just a little too neat and too convenient to be anything else than an elaborate plot.

pm713 wrote:
Apparently using vox didn't occur to Russ and Magnus forgot he was an incredibly powerful telepath.

Again, see my analogy about surrendering to Navy Seals who burst into your house and start shooting everyone. It was past Magnus surrendering at that point, the wolves thought that their surrender demand had been rebuffed so they wanted blood. Magnus contacting Russ telepathically would have been most likely treated as a psychic attack, and anything he had to say probably would have been ignored.

From 1d4chan:
Some head-scratching does arise at to why Magnus didn't: a) simply tell his Legion to lay down their weapons and try and talk Russ out of obliterating the entire world, (because if there's one thing Russ liked to do, it was have long, boring, tedious talks about how this was all just a misunderstanding, because Russ is such a great listener) or b) take the hara-kiri option, which would have at least brought everything to an end a little earlier. The common consensus is that Magnus was too proud to consider the idea of negotiating (especially with the brother he had always considered to be an ignorant savage), and while he was at first resigned to his end he ultimately could not accept the idea that all the lore and knowledge the Thousand Sons had worked to collect would be lost with his death. We also know that Magnus fully understood how bad the Emperor's millenia long plan was fethed up by his intervention on Terra, so the destruction of everything he had built and loved was a way to share his father's despair.

It really wasn't past that point and it's hard to see how Magnus voice appearing in a room saying "I want to surrender myself" is an attack.

If you have to use 1d4chan for quotes that just undermines things seeing as it's full of bad fanfic.

pm713 wrote:
It really wasn't past that point and it's hard to see how Magnus voice appearing in a room saying "I want to surrender myself" is an attack.

Again, Russ would have probably ignored it, thinking it was some sort of trick. Especially since Magnus just got finished turning down a surrender demand earlier (In Russ' mind). Why would he suddenly change his mind?

Accept the fact that once the wolves started shooting, it was decided. There was nothing Magnus could have done to stop anything at that point.

Even if he somehow managed to convince all of the 1k Sons to lay down their arms (which Magnus couldn't have done even if he ordered them to because they hated the wolves), and came out of the Ziggurat begging for his life with his hands behind his head, all it would have earned him was a bolt to the face from a Space Wolves Legionnaire. The Space Wolves were all ordered to slaughter and burn everything, and not accept surrender even from civilians.

pm713 wrote:
If you have to use 1d4chan for quotes that just undermines things seeing as it's full of bad fanfic.

I was merely using a 1d4chan quote to show that it has been discussed before by many other people besides us and the reasoning behind each interpretation of the lore. But, if you want to ignore my point because you think I was somehow trying to pass off fanfiction as actual lore even though I obviously wasn't, go right ahead.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
It really wasn't past that point and it's hard to see how Magnus voice appearing in a room saying "I want to surrender myself" is an attack.

Again, Russ would have probably ignored it, thinking it was some sort of trick. Especially since Magnus just got finished turning down a surrender demand earlier (In Russ' mind). Why would he suddenly change his mind?

Accept the fact that once the wolves started shooting, it was decided. There was nothing Magnus could have done to stop anything at that point.

Even if he somehow managed to convince all of the 1k Sons to lay down their arms (which Magnus couldn't have done even if he ordered them to because they hated the wolves), and came out of the Ziggurat begging for his life with his hands behind his head, all it would have earned him was a bolt to the face from a Space Wolves Legionnaire. The Space Wolves were all ordered to slaughter and burn everything, and not accept surrender even from civilians.

pm713 wrote:
If you have to use 1d4chan for quotes that just undermines things seeing as it's full of bad fanfic.

I was merely using a 1d4chan quote to show that it has been discussed before by many other people besides us and the reasoning behind each interpretation of the lore. But, if you want to ignore my point because you think I was somehow trying to pass off fanfiction as actual lore even though I obviously wasn't, go right ahead.

Would he? Why go from wanting to spare civilians and get a peaceful surrender to ignoring that very thing a moment later?

You seem to think that what happened was they arrived, tried to talk and instantly attacked. That's not what happened, Magnus had plenty of time before the attack began to try and give himself up. Russ wanted to have a bloodless conclusion to things which could easily have been done had either of them bothered to make contact with the other properly. Russ tried talking via Hawser but didn't use vox for some reason and Magnus just did nothing.

When the shooting started all chances of peace died I agree but there was plenty of time to prevent that beforehand. Magnus couldn't have done anything to end it nicely at that point but before that he had plenty of time to do so.

I'm not ignoring your point because you used a 1d4chan quote. I consider it to be contradicted by the lore which is unsurprising as you've shown several times you don't know what you're talking about.