Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

pm713 wrote:

Would he? Why go from wanting to spare civilians and get a peaceful surrender to ignoring that very thing a moment later?

Because he thought Magnus just refused his surrender demand. At that point Russ got pissed and said "feth it, I was being generous giving you a surrender demand at all, if you are going to spit in my face then I'm going to slaughter you all."

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Would he? Why go from wanting to spare civilians and get a peaceful surrender to ignoring that very thing a moment later?

Because he thought Magnus just refused his surrender demand. At that point Russ got pissed and said "feth it, I was being generous giving you a surrender demand at all, if you are going to spit in my face then I'm going to slaughter you all."

That's a really inaccurate portrayal. At no stage was Russ some Angronesque maniac who was looking forwards to the slaughter. He was pretty unhappy before he did it and I'd say upset afterwards. If Magnus had the intelligence to even communicate his desire to surrender then things could have gone very differently.

pm713 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Would he? Why go from wanting to spare civilians and get a peaceful surrender to ignoring that very thing a moment later?

Because he thought Magnus just refused his surrender demand. At that point Russ got pissed and said "feth it, I was being generous giving you a surrender demand at all, if you are going to spit in my face then I'm going to slaughter you all."

That's a really inaccurate portrayal. At no stage was Russ some Angronesque maniac who was looking forwards to the slaughter. He was pretty unhappy before he did it and I'd say upset afterwards. If Magnus had the intelligence to even communicate his desire to surrender then things could have gone very differently.

That is not true at all. Russ was chomping at the bit to burn Prospero and slaughter everyone there, and the only thing he regrets about the entire situation was not decapitating Magnus before he got teleported away by Tzeentch. The only time we see Russ expressing any kind of regret at what happened at Prospero was after he learned Horus tricked him. Even then the regret was mostly about getting tricked than feeling bad about what happened to Magnus or his legion. In Russ' mind, Magnus, his legion, and the people of Prospero got what they deserved. This is pretty strongly reinforced through all of the original space wolf lore. Although I will admit I have not read Wolfsbane so I cannot comment on what happens in that book.

Hell, when the other legions found out what Russ did, they even questioned if the Wolves had turned traitor because of the brutality behind the attack (and because Horus was saying so). Weren't the White Scars preparing a retaliatory strike against the Space Wolves until Khan went to the remains of Prospero himself to figure out what really happened?

Some interesting tidbits from the WH40k Wikipedia (I know it isn't an infallible source, but it's the best reference we have when we talk about lore outside of quoting passages directly from novels):

On Tzeentch manipulating Magnus:
"Magnus had finally understood, after his forced psychic entry into the Hall of the Golden Throne and his direct mental communication with the Emperor, that he had been manipulated by Tzeentch, with whom he had apparently unknowingly consorted while desperately looking for a way to stop the emergence of the psychic mutations that were threatening to destroy his Legion. In an act of repentance and sacrifice, and to show his father that he and his Legion were loyal to the end, he did not warn the defenders of the planet or his Legion of the coming Imperial attack: on the contrary, he imposed a psychic veil on the planet so the Thousand Sons would have no clue of the impending assault. He also dispersed the Thousand Sons' Legion fleet far away from Prospero. He knew that Tzeentch wanted the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves to slaughter each other, and he wanted to stop these plans, even if it meant the sacrifice of his Legion and homeworld. Therefore, the Space Wolves' attack on the Thousand Sons' homeworld of Prospero came as a complete surprise to its people and the Astartes Legion who protected them."

On Russ and the burning of Prospero:
"With no response from the ground, the Imperial armada moved into high orbital anchor above Prospero and assumed a geostationary assault pattern. Thousands of weapons were trained on the planet below: energy weapons, mass-drivers and kinetic bombardment cannons. The starships drifted sedately like grand liners in a regatta among the stars. Leman Russ' flagship, the Battle Barge Hrafnkel, opened the orbital assault, its massive weapons systems etching lines of icy light into the surface of Prospero. Moments later, the rest of the Imperial fleet opened fire." (Nothing about trying to open negotiations beyond his attempt to demand surrender through Kasper).

"All told well over thirty million lives were lost in the prosecution of the Emperor's justice on Prospero, the vast majority of these deaths being those citizens of the Imperium on the planet at the time of the Imperial Censure Fleet's arrival. Official records place the number of survivors from Prospero's civilian population at zero, and while in actuality there were certainly some thousands at large in the galaxy or who potentially escaped with one of the few bands of Thousand Sons to leave the planet alive, as a people the Prosperine branch of Mankind was now extinct. Of the Thousand Sons, official records before 014.M31 no longer listed the Legion, assuming it was completely destroyed until the Siege of Terra. Again, the actual truth is somewhat different, but still places the losses incurred for those Thousand Sons on Prospero at the time of the fleet's arrival at near-total, with the survivors scattered across the galaxy." (Russ made no attempts to distinguish between military and civilian targets, and he killed every living thing on the planet without quarter).

On Russ' feelings toward Prospero:
https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/4j8wfl/does_russ_ever_show_any_remorse_for_the_burning/

Granted it is a reddit thread, so take it with a grain of salt, but the consensus seems to be "no not really" although he did feel bad about getting manipulated into it by Horus.

What.... Russ actively tried contacting Magnus to try and get a "bloodless" conclusion and went out of the way to state that was an offer being extended because Magnus was his brother. The way you're presenting things is plain wrong.

pm713 wrote:
What.... Russ actively tried contacting Magnus to try and get a "bloodless" conclusion and went out of the way to state that was an offer being extended because Magnus was his brother. The way you're presenting things is plain wrong.

Russ tried contacting Magnus by extending a surrender demand through Kasper Hawser, whom Russ belived (wrongly) was a thousand sons spy. It never reached Magnus because Hawser was an (unknowing to even himself) chaos spy. This was Russ' only attempt to try to get Magnus to surrender. Russ never tried communicating in any other way, and because he never received a response to his surrender demand, thought that Magnus was refusing it.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
What.... Russ actively tried contacting Magnus to try and get a "bloodless" conclusion and went out of the way to state that was an offer being extended because Magnus was his brother. The way you're presenting things is plain wrong.

Russ tried contacting Magnus by extending a surrender demand through Kasper Hawser, whom Russ belived (wrongly) was a thousand sons spy. It never reached Magnus because Hawser was an (unknowing to even himself) chaos spy. This was Russ' only attempt to try to get Magnus to surrender. Russ never tried communicating in any other way, and because he never received a response to his surrender demand, thought that Magnus was refusing it.

So like I said: Russ tried to get things sorted without fighting before attacking. He had no idea that he wasn't talking to Magnus.

Which ties in to what I said before. Russ tried talking to Magnus, failed and for some reason didn't use vox. Magnus didn't try talking at all.

The fault is The Emperors.

He made a lot of 'don't do this, don't do that' decrees - but rarely told his Sons why.

And don't forget, the Wolves were only meant to bring Magnus back to Terra. The change in their orders was Horus' doing.

Im pretty sure Russ wasnt chomping at the bit. Valdor bitching in his ear on the other hand. Was.

But Russ is a dog and does what hes told.

the ancient wrote:
Im pretty sure Russ wasnt chomping at the bit. Valdor bitching in his ear on the other hand. Was.

But Russ is a dog and does what hes told.

Russ was in no way reluctant to burn Prospero and kill Magnus. Sure, Horus changed the orders, and Valdor was egging him on the entire time, but Russ held an extremely deep animosity towards Magnus and the 1K Sons that he vented during the battle. I think saying he was salivating over the prospect and cackling would be an exaggeration, but not by much.

Update: Going out of your way to make an unprecedented attempt at peace making against your orders isn't demonstrating you don't really want to do it.

Tomorrow's news: We talk about how Salamanders are the REAL Traitors.

pm713 wrote:
Update: Going out of your way to make an unprecedented attempt at peace making against your orders isn't demonstrating you don't really want to do it.

Tomorrow's news: We talk about how Salamanders are the REAL Traitors.

I don't think just attempting a couple of times shows you don't want to do it...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I don't think just attempting a couple of times shows you don't want to do it...

Attempting once, and a feeble attempt at that.

w1zard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I don't think just attempting a couple of times shows you don't want to do it...

Attempting once, and a feeble attempt at that.

Yeah I'd wager if you're super apprehensive to do something you'd try a little harder than going through a suspected spy and that would be it. Unless PM is being very biased for the Space Wolves and there were several other attempts this case can be closed.

Magnus was pretty innocent before burning of Prospero. His crime was ignorance and he lost his battle against Tzeentch. Otherhand the Emperor keep vital information away from Magnus. Did the Emperor made error or was it calculated or even a gamble? He could see different futures, maybe other futures were worser?

 Draco wrote:
Magnus was pretty innocent before burning of Prospero. His crime was ignorance and he lost his battle against Tzeentch. Otherhand the Emperor keep vital information away from Magnus. Did the Emperor made error or was it calculated or even a gamble? He could see different futures, maybe other futures were worser?

I dont think the Emperor could forsee much worse than losing his grand design for humanity.

No one is innocent in warhammer 40k (or 30k). There are only those with power to enforce their views and those without.







Except the squats...those innocent little guys.

How can Magnus be “innocent” prior to prospero when he sacrificed a whole planet and then bound a deamon to his book, he even murdered the fleeing civilians of the planet that had gotten into space, he was in no way innocent, none of the primarchs are innocent, Magnus is worse than most, he just had good intentions.

Haha no.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I don't think just attempting a couple of times shows you don't want to do it...

Attempting once, and a feeble attempt at that.

Yeah I'd wager if you're super apprehensive to do something you'd try a little harder than going through a suspected spy and that would be it. Unless PM is being very biased for the Space Wolves and there were several other attempts this case can be closed.

I think showing an otherwise unshown reluctance to do something demonstrates Russ didn't want to do it. Never before offering peace and then doing it especially for Magnus shows reluctance to me. I've never denied that Russ was really dumb to just use Hawser. I don't think that's hugely biased.

w1zard wrote:
In all fairness, if my boss/leader/king/father told me that I couldn't do something that I knew he was doing, I'd ignore him just like Magnus ignored the emperor. Hypocrisy is one of the worst character flaws a person can have. It not only demonstrates selfishness but narcissism as well.

That really isn't a bright approach to life. I'm guessing you're pretty young.

Usually, the reason people in authority positions tell you not to do something that they themselves do is because you aren't capable of doing it without hurting yourself or others.

Chcek out TLJ on why this is a bad idea that leads to mutiny. Even a superior has to explain why he orders something. If either Magnus or the Emperor had told the TS the flesh change was no mere flaw but deliberate demonic murder they probably would have acted very different.

A big problem with the debate around the burning of Prospero is that every version GW has published has bits of contradiction and a highly skewed perspective. And that's not just retcons but a deliberate move on the writers' part.
The only thing every version agrees on is Horus/ Tzeentch got pretty much exactly what they wanted.

 gorgon wrote:

w1zard wrote:
In all fairness, if my boss/leader/king/father told me that I couldn't do something that I knew he was doing, I'd ignore him just like Magnus ignored the emperor. Hypocrisy is one of the worst character flaws a person can have. It not only demonstrates selfishness but narcissism as well.

That really isn't a bright approach to life. I'm guessing you're pretty young.

Usually, the reason people in authority positions tell you not to do something that they themselves do is because you aren't capable of doing it without hurting yourself or others.

I'm 26.

If it's because it is dangerous then the person in question can calmly and rationally explain that to me and the reasons behind why it is dangerous instead of doing finger wagging and expecting I will follow orders out of blind obedience.

If someone tells me not to do drugs right after snorting a whole pile of cocaine in another room I'm not going to take them seriously. Especially if they try to pretend (badly) that they aren't doing it.

... and right there you have Magnus and the emperor's relationship in a nutshell.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
How can Magnus be “innocent” prior to prospero when he sacrificed a whole planet and then bound a deamon to his book, he even murdered the fleeing civilians of the planet that had gotten into space, he was in no way innocent, none of the primarchs are innocent, Magnus is worse than most, he just had good intentions.

You are right, Magnus was never "innocent", none of the primarchs were. I was just arguing that he wasn't a "traitor" (or at least an intentional one) before Prospero.

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I don't think just attempting a couple of times shows you don't want to do it...

Attempting once, and a feeble attempt at that.

Yeah I'd wager if you're super apprehensive to do something you'd try a little harder than going through a suspected spy and that would be it. Unless PM is being very biased for the Space Wolves and there were several other attempts this case can be closed.

I think showing an otherwise unshown reluctance to do something demonstrates Russ didn't want to do it. Never before offering peace and then doing it especially for Magnus shows reluctance to me. I've never denied that Russ was really dumb to just use Hawser. I don't think that's hugely biased.

Then he would've tried harder. He really wasn't reluctant. 1 try means you don't care much.

 gorgon wrote:

w1zard wrote:
In all fairness, if my boss/leader/king/father told me that I couldn't do something that I knew he was doing, I'd ignore him just like Magnus ignored the emperor. Hypocrisy is one of the worst character flaws a person can have. It not only demonstrates selfishness but narcissism as well.

That really isn't a bright approach to life. I'm guessing you're pretty young.

Usually, the reason people in authority positions tell you not to do something that they themselves do is because you aren't capable of doing it without hurting yourself or others.

The further up the chain of command you get the more important it is to have all the information you can get your hands on, as you are not only responsible for your own well-being but that of every person Under your command, withholding vital information is extremely dangerous at this point.

Magnus and the other primarchs were at the top of their respective chains of command, with the terrain council, malcador and the emperor being above them.

The primarchs should have been told, but the emperor and malcador feared that when the eventual civil war happened it could be much much worse .... they were both wrong and right.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I don't think just attempting a couple of times shows you don't want to do it...

Attempting once, and a feeble attempt at that.

Yeah I'd wager if you're super apprehensive to do something you'd try a little harder than going through a suspected spy and that would be it. Unless PM is being very biased for the Space Wolves and there were several other attempts this case can be closed.

I think showing an otherwise unshown reluctance to do something demonstrates Russ didn't want to do it. Never before offering peace and then doing it especially for Magnus shows reluctance to me. I've never denied that Russ was really dumb to just use Hawser. I don't think that's hugely biased.

Then he would've tried harder. He really wasn't reluctant. 1 try means you don't care much.

If he wasn't reluctant why make the attempt? He never did that before for anybody. Magnus isn't his favourite person so it's hardly because he personally thinks Magnus is innocent. Reluctance explains all that.

He's reluctant to kill another Legion so he tries contacting them and (wrongly) believing he's been ignored he goes ahead believing that any further attempts would be futile.

As an aside: When was Prospero first entered in the lore? Because I'm betting that it was before the novels were made which explains a fair bit of why they're somewhat illogical in parts.

pm713 wrote:

As an aside: When was Prospero first entered in the lore? Because I'm betting that it was before the novels were made which explains a fair bit of why they're somewhat illogical in parts.

The wolves burning Prospero has been around for a LOOOONG time. Possibly even since 1st edition.

The stories of how it actually happened though came much later.

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I don't think just attempting a couple of times shows you don't want to do it...

Attempting once, and a feeble attempt at that.

Yeah I'd wager if you're super apprehensive to do something you'd try a little harder than going through a suspected spy and that would be it. Unless PM is being very biased for the Space Wolves and there were several other attempts this case can be closed.

I think showing an otherwise unshown reluctance to do something demonstrates Russ didn't want to do it. Never before offering peace and then doing it especially for Magnus shows reluctance to me. I've never denied that Russ was really dumb to just use Hawser. I don't think that's hugely biased.

Then he would've tried harder. He really wasn't reluctant. 1 try means you don't care much.

If he wasn't reluctant why make the attempt? He never did that before for anybody. Magnus isn't his favourite person so it's hardly because he personally thinks Magnus is innocent. Reluctance explains all that.

He's reluctant to kill another Legion so he tries contacting them and (wrongly) believing he's been ignored he goes ahead believing that any further attempts would be futile.

As an aside: When was Prospero first entered in the lore? Because I'm betting that it was before the novels were made which explains a fair bit of why they're somewhat illogical in parts.

It's probably the reluctance of seeing if your dudes are actually going to need to fight. It was likely more for his dudes rather than care for the Thousand Sons.

I know only three things about this subject.

1) Russ is a dog, nothing more nothing less.
2) Magnus was terribly stupid.
3) Tzeentch won.

 SickSix wrote:

 Draco wrote:
Magnus was pretty innocent before burning of Prospero. His crime was ignorance and he lost his battle against Tzeentch. Otherhand the Emperor keep vital information away from Magnus. Did the Emperor made error or was it calculated or even a gamble? He could see different futures, maybe other futures were worser?

I dont think the Emperor could forsee much worse than losing his grand design for humanity.

Spoiler:

He literally says he has no idea what to do, after losing the webway, to one of his custodes in Master of Mankind.

Good to know. I haven't that book yet.

Magnus was not innocent. He was arrogant. As Arrogant as most Primarch, maybe more than most. He was convinced he knew best. He was convinced he was too smart to be tricked. He was convinced he could beat the denizens of the warp at their game.

He was wrong.

Why didn't the Emperor tell him more? An age old question when it comes to telling people not to do things you can or have to do. Parent tell their kid not to drink alcohol until they are older. We've all see the commercials saying "don't try this at home" and "professional driver on closed course". And yet people do those things stuff anyway because they are sure they know better.

Ultimately, the Emperor told the Primarchs what he thought they needed to know when it was, in his view, necessary or they were ready to learn it. Unfortunately, he didn't tell them enough soon enough and he got the Hersey as a result of his failures as a leader/father.