What is it to be English?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Iron_Captain**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Yes, it's a great book and worth noting that while it's specifically about the English, a lot of the observations can be generalised to the British as a whole.

Personally speaking I'm English born and bred, but I self-identify primarily as British. If a foreigner asks me if I'm English I say yes -- typically Americans and Japanese don't understand the distinction anyway.

This is part of the identity crisis facing the English. As the majority of the British Isles and effective Top Nation, the English identity was super-merged (If that is a word) in the British imperial identity during the days of Empire.

This of course is fading but while the devolved nations have their own national identities and assemblies, the English don't and have lost their Imperial identity and don't know how to identify themselves.

This is behind the vote for Brexit.

Interesting.
That has a lot of similarities with the problem of "Russian" identity, which used to be pretty much the same as Imperial or Soviet identity but then suddenly the empire was gone. Russia is still suffering from a really big identity crisis.

**Turnip Jedi**

"Well, erm, hmm, its alright. We've got understatement. We have strong prevailing South Westerly winds. 52% of our days are overcast, so as a nation we're infused with a wistful melancholy. But we remain a relentlessly chipper population, prone to mild eccentricity, binge drinking and casual violence"

Heed the wisdom of the troll truth speaker

**An Actual Englishman**

Orlanth wrote:
fresus wrote:

More on topic, I think being English means walking in the streets of London with a black round hat and an umbrella, carefully monitoring time to make sure you don't miss tea time. And this tea time consists of drinking tea with milk (gasp) in dated china (bonus points if it has pictures of the royalty on it), while eating dreadful cookies and making small talk with an old lady (bonus points if it's your wife).
That's what the French believe, and that's why we hate you too

Mostly true of course!

However that tea drinking Englishman will be quietly thinking of how nice it would be if your string of onions would get caught in your bicycle wheel and pulled you off and choke you, so you lie caught by the side of the road in your striped shirt and beret while the snails have revenge and crawl on your face and eat your garlic. Because of course you are not properly dressed without all those things.

I think this exchange is one of the best examples of what it is to be English I have ever seen.

**Crispy78**

Turnip Jedi wrote:
"Well, erm, hmm, its alright. We've got understatement. We have strong prevailing South Westerly winds. 52% of our days are overcast, so as a nation we're infused with a wistful melancholy. But we remain a relentlessly chipper population, prone to mild eccentricity, binge drinking and casual violence"

Heed the wisdom of the troll truth speaker

I'll just add to that with:

I'm English, and as such I crave disappointment. That's why I buy Kinder Surprise. Horrible chocolate; nasty little toy: a double-whammy of disillusionment! Sometimes I eat the toy out of sheer despair.

**Jadenim**

I’ve always identified as British, despite being born and raised in the England, because a significant chunk of my family are Welsh.

Also, being from the Midlands, I get a double-whammy of lack of identity, for both region and country.

**Henry**

Jadenim wrote:
Also, being from the Midlands, I get a double-whammy of lack of identity, for both region and country.

South Staffordshire myself. The northerners call us southerners and the southerners call us northerners and neither take the time to notice the clue is in the name.
We're from the Midlands, we're midlanders.

**Riquende**

Henry wrote:

We're from the Midlands, we're midlanders.

Sounds suspiciously northern to me.

**mrhappyface**

Henry wrote:We're from the Midlands, we're midlanders.

I don't think that'll catch on.

Riquende wrote:
Henry wrote:

We're from the Midlands, we're midlanders.

Sounds suspiciously northern to me.

Don't try to palm them off on us!

**Mozzyfuzzy**

Riquende wrote:
Henry wrote:

We're from the Midlands, we're midlanders.

Sounds suspiciously northern to me.

Sounds suspiciously southern to me.

**Orlanth**

It is interesting that this thread has revealed a lot of pointers to a problem with the social engineering of British identity for party political gain. I will make some comments on what I see here then return later to handle replies and expound more on the subject later.

Yodhrin wrote:
Ketara wrote:

This is, I think, quite true. English people use the term British quite interchangeable with their own culture of 'Englishness' usually.

This is the main issue, and one that really needs to be confronted.

It only needs to be 'confronted', if you think of the English as the enemy beyond the southern border. If/as you do, that is your problem and not really anyone elses.

**xKillGorex**

[I see you have gotten confused what you meant is;
Always maintain Britain is the only sensible nation in Europe.
Always maintain that England is carrying the other British nations.
Always maintain the South is better than the North.
Always maintain that Somerset is the greatest County.
Always maintain that the levels is the best third.
Always maintain hills don't exist.
Always maintain that people who live in the North are savages.

Always maintain the French deserve the hatred we give them.
Always maintain that the Empire only existed because we wanted to eat food that wasn't boiled or roasted until the last nutrient was whimpering in fear.

**godardc**

mrhappyface wrote:
godardc wrote:
I had this question at my exam last month ! And I was awarded a nice 7.5/20 (a really bad mark...)...
You writed English, do you mean English or British and you overlooked it (really want to know !) ?

May I enquire as to why a (presumably) French exam asked what it meant to be British.

Also, I believe he meant English: as a Scot he was asking what being English meant to us.

It is because I am studying English and Spanish, and thus British and US civilizations too !

**Frazzled**

mrhappyface wrote:
Always maintain that Europe is the best continent.
Always maintain Britain is the only sensible nation in Europe.
Always maintain that England is carrying the other British nations.
Always maintain the North is better than the South.
Always maintain that Yorkshire is the greatest County.
Always maintain East Yorkshire is the best third.
Always maintain Hull isn't as bad as people think.
Always maintain that people who don't live in my part of Hull are savages.

Always maintain the French deserve the hatred we give them.

So would Welsh consider themes English? What's the difference between North and South?

**Kilkrazy**

Orlanth wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
I think there's a lot in the theory around education. For example during WW2 there was more or less complete acceptance that the British (i.e. English) Empire was a good thing, and nowadays there is a lot more critical appraisal, for example of Britain's role in the slace trade.

Britain's role in the slave trade was largely to end it. However it is yet another example of modern revisionism.

That's complete crap.

Britain traded massively in slaves from the 16th to the early 19th century. Just look at the National Archives for accounting records of it.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-transatlantic-slave-trade-records/

The slave trade was abolished in 1807, and slavery itself in 1833.

**Frazzled**

fresus wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:
6. An unwillingness to admit that our food is by far the most bland and boring of any country.

The Dutch give you a run for your money though. I think they're pretty hard to beat.
As I tend to say: if you want to know if a given country has good food, just try to see how many of their restaurants you can find in other countries. Everywhere I went to, I've seen French, Italian, Japanese, Thai, or Indian restaurants. But I don't think I've ever seen an English or Dutch restaurant in my life. I've seen Fish&Chips food trucks, and some English pubs (although Irish pubs are a lot more common), so I guess it could be worse.

More on topic, I think being English means walking in the streets of London with a black round hat and an umbrella, carefully monitoring time to make sure you don't miss tea time. And this tea time consists of drinking tea with milk (gasp) in dated china (bonus points if it has pictures of the royalty on it), while eating dreadful cookies and making small talk with an old lady (bonus points if it's your wife).
That's what the French believe, and that's why we hate you too

I have been to "English" pubs in Canada and Texas though. Typically really good beers, good chairs and lots of wood.

**mrhappyface**

Frazzled wrote:
So would Welsh consider themes English?

Sorry, what do you mean?

What's the difference between North and South?

One's in the North, the other's in the South.

**Iron_Captain**

xKillGorex wrote:

Always maintain Britain is the only sensible nation in Europe.

I thought you guys did not want to be part of Europe?

mrhappyface wrote:

What's the difference between North and South?

One's in the North, the other's in the South.

.

**Frazzled**

mrhappyface wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
So would Welsh consider themes English?

Sorry, what do you mean?

What's the difference between North and South?

One's in the North, the other's in the South.

Is the area that is Wales English?

The above said there were difference s North and South. Like what? For instance North Texas actually gets cold. South Texas doesn't know what cold is and the language is Spanish.

**xKillGorex**

Iron_Captain wrote:
xKillGorex wrote:

Always maintain Britain is the only sensible nation in Europe.

I thought you guys did not want to be part of Europe?

mrhappyface wrote:

What's the difference between North and South?

One's in the North, the other's in the South.

.

That was meant to be a reply to a quote, i just added the bit about the bottom, seems I messed up the quote part. Lol.

**mrhappyface**

Frazzled wrote:
mrhappyface wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
So would Welsh consider themes English?

Sorry, what do you mean?

What's the difference between North and South?

One's in the North, the other's in the South.

Is the area that is Wales English?

The above said there were difference s North and South. Like what? For instance North Texas actually gets cold. South Texas doesn't know what cold is and the language is Spanish.

Wales isn't England; England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Island are all separate countries but we are ruled under a single union with representation in our Government from each Country. It's kind of like states in America: you're ruled under one government but each state has some variation in local laws.

The North is Colder than the South but not by too much. The main difference is in the culture, generally you find Northerners much more down to earth and chatty (though maybe that's because Southerners sometimes have a hard time understanding Northerners).

**Da Boss**

Frazzled wrote:
mrhappyface wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
So would Welsh consider themes English?

Sorry, what do you mean?

What's the difference between North and South?

One's in the North, the other's in the South.

Is the area that is Wales English?

The above said there were difference s North and South. Like what? For instance North Texas actually gets cold. South Texas doesn't know what cold is and the language is Spanish.

Wales is Wales. It is it's own country with it's own language, derived from the original celtic language of Britain. It is culturally pretty distinct from England. They do also speak English there, but it is quite common to hear Welsh spoken in the street in some parts of Wales which I think is great.

The difference between the North and the South?
...in the North everyone is Working Class and wears a flatcap, drinks strong tea you can stand a spoon up in, used to be a coal miner/was born in a coal mine and keeps ferrets. The North is sometimes considered more friendly than the South.
...in the South everyone is a posh softie who is filthy rich, works for a big bank in London and has a flash car. People in the South are classier than people in the North (excluding Essex) and secretly take great pleasure from knowing they are paying for the existence of the rest of the United Kingdom.

Or, just think Game of Thrones, Starks vs. Lannisters.

**xKillGorex**

Also don’t forget the southwest of the uk, where we aren’t all super rich or work for the banks in London. Where plenty of people have to eek out a living from tourism on the coastal areas.
Plus don’t even mention the roads that have pot holes so big you can fit a coffin in them with room to spare.
Saying that though they must have pot holes that big in London too considering they all drive massive city tractors.

**Turnip Jedi**

Riquende wrote:
Henry wrote:

We're from the Midlands, we're midlanders.

Sounds suspiciously northern to me.

Anything North of Northampton is t'north, factiod

**mrhappyface**

Turnip Jedi wrote:
Riquende wrote:
Henry wrote:

We're from the Midlands, we're midlanders.

Sounds suspiciously northern to me.

Anything North of Northampton is t'north, factiod

You think Brummers are Northerners?

**Turnip Jedi**

xKillGorex wrote:
Also don’t forget the southwest of the uk, where we aren’t all super rich or work for the banks in London. Where plenty of people have to eek out a living from tourism on the coastal areas.
Plus don’t even mention the roads that have pot holes so big you can fit a coffin in them with room to spare.
Saying that though they must have pot holes that big in London too considering they all drive massive city tractors.

But everyone knows there's nowt west of Bristol bar the semi-mythical Isle of St Ives and the 2nd home archipelago

**xKillGorex**

I’d say anything past Bristol is up north, lol. But then Bristolians really are a special breed to be fair.

Actually Turnip Jedi you hit the nail on the head right there. If anyone thought tatooine was barren they’ve never been to Somerset.

**Henry**

It is of course a little more complicated than that. Northerners tend to have a presumptuousness about them that encourages them to interject themselves into your life whether you like it or not, spout their own ideas as if they are gospel and take umbrage if you should even slightly disagree over the most trivial of details, and will bore you to the back teeth with frivolous gossip that nobody gives a rat's arse about.

I'm not saying northerners are worse than southerners (I have a separate bag of gripes about that insular lot) but I would like to dispel the myth that they breed a nicer crop of people up north. Both north and south have their faults. Midlanders of course are perfectly welcoming hosts with good humour and humility

**mrhappyface**

Iron_Captain wrote:
xKillGorex wrote:

Always maintain Britain is the only sensible nation in Europe.

I thought you guys did not want to be part of Europe?

Politically. Unfortunately, the technology to turn Britain into a floating island and sale off into the Atlantic is still in the works.

Henry wrote:It is of course a little more complicated than that. Northerners tend to have a presumptuousness about them that encourages them to interject themselves into your life whether you like it or not, spout their own ideas as if they are gospel and take umbrage if you should even slightly disagree over the most trivial of details, and will bore you to the back teeth with frivolous gossip that nobody gives a rat's arse about.

I'm not saying northerners are worse than southerners (I have a separate bag of gripes about that insular lot) but I would like to dispel the myth that they breed a nicer crop of people up north. Both north and south have their faults. Midlanders of course are perfectly welcoming hosts with good humour and humility

Dear God no, the Midlands are the worst! At least Southerners have a bit about them.

**Henry**

mrhappyface wrote:
Turnip Jedi wrote:
Riquende wrote:
Henry wrote:

We're from the Midlands, we're midlanders.

Sounds suspiciously northern to me.

Anything North of Northampton is t'north, factiod

You think Brummers are Northerners?

I remember seeing a map based on a poll that asked people whether they thought named towns and cities were in the north or south.

The final line on the map ran almost straight from Lincoln to Bristol, a north to south drop of roughly 130 miles. We're a bit funny in where we think one begins and the other ends.

Edit: Ah, here it is I think

**Orlanth**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Orlanth wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
I think there's a lot in the theory around education. For example during WW2 there was more or less complete acceptance that the British (i.e. English) Empire was a good thing, and nowadays there is a lot more critical appraisal, for example of Britain's role in the slace trade.

Britain's role in the slave trade was largely to end it. However it is yet another example of modern revisionism.

That's complete crap.

Britain traded massively in slaves from the 16th to the early 19th century. Just look at the National Archives for accounting records of it.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-transatlantic-slave-trade-records/

The slave trade was abolished in 1807, and slavery itself in 1833.

The British were the first major abolitionists and also actively policed the Atlantic whenever possible. Note that at the time the abolitionist movement in the UK, slavery was acceptable in most of the developed world.
To highlight the British as responsible for the slave trade is dishonest, back when the British were shipping slaves anyone else with the capability was also doing same, but the British were the first to reform stop and bring an end to it.