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Made in gb
Battleship Captain




fishwaffle2232 wrote:
 Duskweaver wrote:
Has anyone managed to make an all-CSM kill team viable? I have a bunch of Fallen Angels converted up, but I haven't had a chance to try them out yet. I'm hoping I can get away without needing any cultists (since they don't really fit as allies for the Fallen, IMO)...


I am running a fallen killteam and i have to disagree with you on cultists not fitting for the fallen.
It is written into the fluff that the fallen are known to go to planets and cause rebellions or convince others to fight for them. Cultists fit this role perfectly. Plus it is very rare for fallen to travel in large groups, so having 4 or so leading some cultists fits perfectly.

To answer your question though, I think straight csm could work, but it would miss out on the benefits of cultists which provide good meatshields, flamers and stubbers and a cheap leader to allow you to make your aspiring champion a zealot instead, which i believe is currently our best close combat option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Either way, chaos are gonna struggle against most other killteams. We just dont do anything better than anyone else.


I think Beseech The Dark Gods is one of our best toys. I joke about inevitably exploding cultist, but for a chaos marine with a heavy bolter it's brutal. A hit on 2+, wound on 2+, 3 shot heavy weapon which has the range to put 'close range' fire across most of the board is pretty much without equal in the rules, and a lot of kill teams don't get a true heavy weapon at all. Grandfather's Blessing is similar but plague marines lack anyone really suitable to hand it to, and thousand sons lack it completely.

Death To The False Emperor is an opponent specific rule but Imperium is a pretty good opponent to have a specific rule against, covering 5 very popular kill-teams. More importantly, it's equivalent to an astartes 1CP stratagem, on every model, all the time. Yes, thousand sons and death guard get it too, but thousand sons only get their sorceror melee-armed, and Death Guard - whilst they get the nice face-beating fighters - are expensive and slower. Icon of Khorne makes charges very reliable for 1 point and fury of khorne can let you really chop up bunched up enemies, especially on a zealot.

For utterly disgusting destruction, Beseech The Dark Gods with a Khornate Zealot. Firstly he throws out 3 attacks, hitting on 2s, wounding on 3s with +1 to wound, and 6's to hit getting an extra attack, but for 1CP in subsequent rounds he can killing frenzy, for an extra, extra attack on 6's to hit, or for 2CP fight twice. For a model that's bought all its extra punch with specialist skills and stratagems, not points, that's impressive.

Plus, in 100 points, the slight cost advantage of 'normal' marines over cult marines magnifies; 12 points allows 8 chainsword-wielding nutjobs (well, 7 chainswords and 1 power sword), which outnumbers any marine equivalent (accepting that one-on-one reivers would beat you) and outclassing most non-astartes.

I'd hope we'll see a world eaters kill team or daemonkin (bezerkers/possessed?) kill team sooner or later, but until then, I think flying the brass skull high is the best option for 'normal' CSM. (as and when we get a starter box with extra stratagems I hope there's tactics for the other three marks, though)

Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2785
 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





Yea I guess a 5/6 chance of getting +1 to hit and wound for the whole game on a S 5 3 shot weapon is worth the risk, a reall backfield threat.
For fluff reasons im not running khorne but i think close combat Cultists supported by CSM and flamers may be the way to go. As long as you keep them close to each other they are gonna be able to dish out a solid amount of hits in CC. Plus they have pistols for the shooting phase.

I got a win running autogun cultists, but it didnt feel strong. None of my basic cultists got any kills. The modifiers to hit on a base 4+ really neuter them.

   
Made in us
Enigmatic Exalted Daemon





Albany, NY

locarno24 wrote:
I think Beseech The Dark Gods is one of our best toys. I joke about inevitably exploding cultist, but for a chaos marine with a heavy bolter it's brutal. A hit on 2+, wound on 2+, 3 shot heavy weapon which has the range to put 'close range' fire across most of the board is pretty much without equal in the rules, and a lot of kill teams don't get a true heavy weapon at all. Grandfather's Blessing is similar but plague marines lack anyone really suitable to hand it to, and thousand sons lack it completely.
That's really tasty and makes me feel better about being limited to just a heavy b when it comes to big guns. I had planned on using BTDG on my cultist champ and going ham, but I'm digging embracing the madness and slapping it on the gunner. Had a passing thought to give it to my stubber cultist to bring him up to a second heavy bolter, with demolitionist upping the power vs all those dudes in cover ...

Also here's a +1 to other god tactics. Building a Slaanesh crew because reasons, would be groovy to have some bonuses for it, apart from the kinda overcosted icon.

- Salvage

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/10 14:23:37


CORUSCATING III: AOS TIZZ REPORTS 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Protoculturist






RVA

I gave all my CSM the Slaanesh mark (because I heart Slaanesh) but not the icon only to find that the single game impact was versus Craftworlders, who I just happened to be playing that night.

   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




Oh - slight correction on Death To The False Emperor/Killing Frenzy/Beseech The Dark Gods combination.

Because Beseech The Dark Gods gives you +1 on rolls to hit, remember it doesn't just turn a 2 into a 3 for a hit, it also turns a 5 into a 6 to trigger Death To The False Emperor and Killing Frenzy, doubling the number of bonus attacks you'll rack up. Stack these three rules together on a zealot specialist and you can deliver serious punishment.

Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2785
 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





locarno24 wrote:
Oh - slight correction on Death To The False Emperor/Killing Frenzy/Beseech The Dark Gods combination.

Because Beseech The Dark Gods gives you +1 on rolls to hit, remember it doesn't just turn a 2 into a 3 for a hit, it also turns a 5 into a 6 to trigger Death To The False Emperor and Killing Frenzy, doubling the number of bonus attacks you'll rack up. Stack these three rules together on a zealot specialist and you can deliver serious punishment.


Well that makes close combat a more viable option. On the charge you will on average gain 2 attacks if you use both tactics. Thats also hitting on 2s and wounding on 3s against most things. Pretty solid.

I guess it will depend who we are playing against but I think I am still leaning towards having BtDG on a Heavy or Stubber guy for the extra fire power to supplement a more close combat oriented force. 6 shots a turn from 2 models that can be set up in the "backfield" with decent odds of hitting is pretty solid.
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





So, I took it upon myself to look into the collection, and try to make a decent Command Roster for balance.

20 models total to choose from.

2 Leaders: One for fighting, one for hiding.
CSM Champ, Sword
Cultist Champ, autogun

8 Specialists: Cycle in most appropriate.

CSM Champ, Sword, Zealot
CSM, Icon, Veteran
2 CSM Gunners, 2 H. Bolter, Heavy, Demo
2 CSM Gunner, 2 Plasma, Heavy, Sniper
2 CSM Gunner, 2 Flamers, Heavy, Demo

10 Non Specialists: The gap filler.

3 Cultists, autoguns
4 CSM, Bolters
3 CSM, Chainswords

So, this kinda revives my CSM collection, and gives some unit diversity (as much as we can get) for whatever Mission is played.

Hmm. Ah damn. Didn't realize I couldn't double down on the heavies and special weapon on the field. Oh well same principle. The roster is the same, I just don't have to bring 2 pairs of Specials and HB models with me.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/08/11 04:57:35


 
   
Made in im
Tunneling Trygon






Nottingham (yay!)

What’s the plan for the the 17% of games where BtDG leaves us with no Heavy Bolter?

My head is saying well, at least it’s only a 1.7% chance that a decent heavy gunner will fail that and then actually die, but my gut is saying that it will happen annoyingly often

   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





 lindsay40k wrote:
What’s the plan for the the 17% of games where BtDG leaves us with no Heavy Bolter?

My head is saying well, at least it’s only a 1.7% chance that a decent heavy gunner will fail that and then actually die, but my gut is saying that it will happen annoyingly often


Stubber is a less risky target. Demo stubber is still a heavy hitting option plus you can have a Hbolter csm gunner as well.
   
Made in no
Hellacious Havoc





Anyone found a solution to being stunlocked?
Last 2 rounds of five last game all was stunned so vouldnt do anything, just hope to survive and win the objectives.

They did not survive lol.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





Hawehu@hotmail.com wrote:
Anyone found a solution to being stunlocked?
Last 2 rounds of five last game all was stunned so vouldnt do anything, just hope to survive and win the objectives.

They did not survive lol.


Shaken?

Keep your guys close together so that they are less likely to fail their nerve tests. You can take an icon of vengeance too .
   
Made in no
Hellacious Havoc





Yeah shaken.
When 8 guys are dead you have to add 8 to your nerve test roll.
So unless you have 8 models within 2" you're gonna fail.

   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





Hawehu@hotmail.com wrote:
Yeah shaken.
When 8 guys are dead you have to add 8 to your nerve test roll.
So unless you have 8 models within 2" you're gonna fail.



Its tough but mitigated by keeping guys close together. Its the biggest weakness of running lots of cultists but im not sure there is another way to solve this issue. What you get for the point investment is great with cultists but surviving in the face of casulties is tough. I think all hordes will face this issue.
   
Made in no
Hellacious Havoc





Yeah.
At least when elite armies take tests they have higher Ld.

   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





Tske the icon of vengeance, it gives +1 ld
   
Made in no
Hellacious Havoc





I did.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Cosplay Enthusiast/ Warsmith





Gulf Breeze Florida

Don’t forget the leadership strategem

It might cost 2, but if you use it on the right fella, you can try to fight back.

It’s also a good reason to run a Veteran as one of our CSM Specialist. Just to ignore the modifications to the tests

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/12 13:47:21


Iron Within, Iron Without

4250 points

 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




Hawehu@hotmail.com wrote:
Yeah shaken.
When 8 guys are dead you have to add 8 to your nerve test roll.
So unless you have 8 models within 2" you're gonna fail.



You've still got to roll more than your leadership of 5, and - unlike checking if you are broken, flesh wounded models don't count.
So yes, you'll need to bundle models into pseudo-squads, but - say - 6 models clustered together can keep moving half the time.

That is a point making autogun cultists more useful - because once a low ld melee model is shaken, it's basically useless.

Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2785
 
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




locarno24 wrote:
Oh - slight correction on Death To The False Emperor/Killing Frenzy/Beseech The Dark Gods combination.

Because Beseech The Dark Gods gives you +1 on rolls to hit, remember it doesn't just turn a 2 into a 3 for a hit, it also turns a 5 into a 6 to trigger Death To The False Emperor and Killing Frenzy, doubling the number of bonus attacks you'll rack up. Stack these three rules together on a zealot specialist and you can deliver serious punishment.


Yep I'm liking this train of thought!

At the cost of dropping the Khorne, you could combo this up with the Icon of Excess...now you are triggering Death to the False Emperor on 4+
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon






Nottingham (yay!)

Hmm. So, melee Cultists to banzai charge and disrupt the foe, autogunners to hide and achieve victory conditions when the rabble have done their business.

Icon of Wrath to ensure the duellists reach the foe, perhaps with Zealot? Slaanesh is just too reliant on your matchup - wasted points if you’re not fighting Imperium, liability against Harlequins.

Suggest both Heavy Bolter and Heavy Stubber models get Heavy. If you kill your own super-suppressor with prayers, having someone else who can fire 6 shots that inflict -1 to hit might be a necessity.

   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





 lindsay40k wrote:
Hmm. So, melee Cultists to banzai charge and disrupt the foe, autogunners to hide and achieve victory conditions when the rabble have done their business.

Icon of Wrath to ensure the duellists reach the foe, perhaps with Zealot? Slaanesh is just too reliant on your matchup - wasted points if you’re not fighting Imperium, liability against Harlequins.

Suggest both Heavy Bolter and Heavy Stubber models get Heavy. If you kill your own super-suppressor with prayers, having someone else who can fire 6 shots that inflict -1 to hit might be a necessity.


Correct me if im wrong but I don't think you can take two heavy specialists in the same kill team. Demolitions is a good alternative for stubber though.
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon






Nottingham (yay!)

You are quite right, my bad. Hmm. I’m torn between the killpower of a 2+/2+ Heavy Bolter that’s absent for 17% of games and has a 10% chance of never coming back from a missed game, and - from game three in a campaign onwards - a reliably present -1 to hit debuff on up to six enemie per turn, depending on their spread. If suppressor required an actual hit to trigger, then maybe not.

Hmm. Might be worth taking two HBs in a campaign list, and when you play weaker teams train up a second suppressor, just in case your main gunner says the wrong prayer and becomes one with the Warp. Wouldn’t like to lose such a powerful warrior before a game against a well trained team.

   
 
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