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Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






Nottingham (yay!)

So, how are we approaching this, then?

We’ve got some peculiar constraints to work with. Only two options, but they’re very different. Cultists with loadouts based on the OOP Dark Vengeance squad, and Heretacs with loadouts based on the - what, fifteen years old? - CSM squad. So, those of us who set aside a box of Betrayal at Calth marines can leave the combi-weapon and missile launcher on the frame, and World Eaters will have to sheathe their axes.

Free reign on Marks of Chaos for those polytheists amongst us, but at present Khorne is the only one that unlocks a Tactic - or a friendly aura that’s not dependent on your opponent’s faction.

A load of buffs against Imperium, ability to squeeze out a cheeky Mortal Wound here and there, and a risky Tactic that could either boost, cripple, or kill a model.

Access to Combat, Demolitions, Veteran, and Zealot skills for Cultists, and Demolitions, Sniper, Veteran, and Zealot on Heretacs.

We can go horde, moderately elite, or take a hybrid approach. What might be the routes of least resistance on the eightfold path?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/07/29 16:41:50


   
Made in us
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker





Pure horde seems super risky, as shocking as that surely must be to everyone.

I'm thinking of something like 6 cultists and 5 CSM, the latter will have BP/CS, one gunner with HB, one zealot with Icon of Wrath, and the champ with a plasma pistol and power sword.

One silver lining is that there's no down side to painting them/running as Word Bearers, perhaps other than a bit of snobbery about their dedication to Khorne.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Cosplay Enthusiast/ Warsmith





Gulf Breeze Florida

I've been thinking a Heavy Bolter Marine and 2 Heavy Stubber Cultists would be the core of my team.

From there it would be a Champ with a Powerfist, Chainsword Zealot with Icon, and as many Pistol/CCW cultists I could grab.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/30 20:48:47


Iron Within, Iron Without

4250 points

 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




So I got a couple of learning games in on Saturday and we left out a couple of concepts while we got the flow of the game down. I'll start by saying I'm a bit baffled at the lack of weapon load outs available to Heretic Astartes - I can't even bring lightning claws!! The loyalist counterparts have quite a load out. I'm not sure what the devs where thinking here.

We played about 75 points for about 3 games and used the basic learning mission. While I was entertained and am thoroughly looking forward to the next matches, I'm confused. I brought my World Eaters against harlequins and the harlies got where they needed to be on the first turn, including charges 9 times out of 10. It felt like a complete lack of strategy, that could have just been the mission though. I probably will play back a bit next time in anticipation of that. I'm still on the fence about some of these stratagems as well. I don't understand the concept of "Hey spend 2 command points and we'll give you a 50% chance to let this thing happen".

We did have a couple of rules conundrums as well that we kept trying to trace back to 40k rules, including trying to decide if Harlequins get to use their flip belt on the charge, and also if pistols can be fired info another close combat engagement 6 inches away. We still don't have answers for this and are wondering why we are having to search so hard for answers to what should be clear, concise rulings.

At the end of the day, I think I had 3 or 4 Astartes models including an Aspiring Champ as my leader and then the rest were cultists. I could have played better, but we were learning. If you haven't figured it out yet, I didn't win any of them. After reading up on the rules though I've caught a couple of items that I definitely will play better next time. I'm also eager to play against some other factions!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Chaos definitely seems pretty bare bones compared to most other factions. Their options definitely seem to point them towards combat, and they can bring a fair number of models with 2 attacks each in melee, so that seems decent. Zealot aspiring champions seem pretty good as well. I think the cultist champion is the best canidate for a leader. The khorne icon send good for this as well.

I also noticed an interesting little combo you can do in close combat: get into combat with a leader, combat specialist, and one other guy (probably the zealot), fight with the leader, pop the leader strategem, fight with the zealot, then pop the combat ability. This let's you fight with three guys in a row for 2CP, which seems pretty good.

I just worry how chaos will fair against other factions that are able to out shoot or out close combat them, since they don't seem particularly good at either one compared to some of the other factions.
   
Made in us
Glorious Grot Banna Wava




eternalxfl wrote:
So I got a couple of learning games in on Saturday and we left out a couple of concepts while we got the flow of the game down. I'll start by saying I'm a bit baffled at the lack of weapon load outs available to Heretic Astartes - I can't even bring lightning claws!! The loyalist counterparts have quite a load out. I'm not sure what the devs where thinking here.

We played about 75 points for about 3 games and used the basic learning mission. While I was entertained and am thoroughly looking forward to the next matches, I'm confused. I brought my World Eaters against harlequins and the harlies got where they needed to be on the first turn, including charges 9 times out of 10. It felt like a complete lack of strategy, that could have just been the mission though. I probably will play back a bit next time in anticipation of that. I'm still on the fence about some of these stratagems as well. I don't understand the concept of "Hey spend 2 command points and we'll give you a 50% chance to let this thing happen".

We did have a couple of rules conundrums as well that we kept trying to trace back to 40k rules, including trying to decide if Harlequins get to use their flip belt on the charge, and also if pistols can be fired info another close combat engagement 6 inches away. We still don't have answers for this and are wondering why we are having to search so hard for answers to what should be clear, concise rulings.

At the end of the day, I think I had 3 or 4 Astartes models including an Aspiring Champ as my leader and then the rest were cultists. I could have played better, but we were learning. If you haven't figured it out yet, I didn't win any of them. After reading up on the rules though I've caught a couple of items that I definitely will play better next time. I'm also eager to play against some other factions!


It's pretty tough to read "can ignore terrain while moving" and then read the description of Moving in the very first section in the movement phase

"Moving
You can change the position of a model on the battlefield by making a move with the model. Models can be moved in the Movement phase and the Fight phase, and some abilities may allow a model to make a move in other phases too."

and not see that as a pretty concise, clear ruling on what a move is.

Also, you only need to actually read the rule for pistols

"Pistol
You can choose to shoot with a model with a Pistol weapon even if there are enemies within 1", but it must target the closest enemy model (you can choose which if two or more are equidistant) and can only shoot with its Pistol weapon(s). In such circumstances, the model can shoot its Pistol even if other friendly models are within 1" of the same enemy model."

I don't see where this rule gives you any kind of exception to the "models cannot target enemy models within 1" of friendly models" rule, unless you yourself are within 1" of the enemy, and then you can only shoot that model within 1" of you.
   
Made in ca
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker






As far as I can tell, my dream of going Khorne Zerkers in Killteam has all but turned to dust. Chainswords won't connect with any sort of elite units, and only one model in a kill team can take any sort of special melee weapon. It seems like the only viable non-leader melee is just cultist spam.

14,000 points!
 
   
Made in no
Hellacious Havoc





Yeah. Csm are just boring in kill team.
Bad models for the marines, theyre as small as the cultists!

If there was some exciting new models then it would be a reason to actually buy some.

I've played csm for 4 years and havent even bought any marines, i use the chosen kitbashed from the dark vengeance for anything marines, since there never was a big reason to use chosen anyways.

Now I'm just never gonna buy those weird csm models and certainly not make a cool kill team of short plain looking 80s homemade rolled in your palm finger modelled models models models models.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Cosplay Enthusiast/ Warsmith





Gulf Breeze Florida

I think Flamer cultists will be pretty good.

I played a game with the Khorne Build posted earlier and I thought the cultists s3 was holding them back on the charge.

I’ll try to get a game in this weekend with Flamer cultists in the Khorne list and let you guys know how it goes

Iron Within, Iron Without

4250 points

 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




So....any advice for someone considering a pure cultist force?
Theoretically the kill-team is pretty simple - a team leader, two gunners and 17 cultists. The question is a balancing act of autoguns vs autopistol/brutal assault weapon and flamer vs heavy stubber.

~ Rapid fire weapons on BS4+ models look pretty sucky at 13"+ range, but getting close enough to rapid fire at targets in the clear means (a) moving up close to opponents who are much scarier in melee (even genestealer cultists with rifle AND pistol), and (b) not focusing, so if advancing on an enemy firebase you have to eat enemy rapid fire first.

~ At the same time, even most kill team's "shooty" fire teams can probably beat large numbers of autopistol armed cultists in a fair fight.

~ Only having two gunners is painful compared to guard, but you do get a full 20-model team with no compromises.

~ Flamers are nice, reliable damage on the can't-hit-for-toffee cultist, but will need some autopistol meat shields.

~ Heavy stubbers' range and the option of the Inevitable Self Destructing Cultist (AKA Beseech The Dark Gods) does make a heavy stubber half decent - pretty much on a par with a marine heavy bolter, in fact.


Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2785
 
   
Made in fr
Fresh-Faced New User




 vaklor4 wrote:
As far as I can tell, my dream of going Khorne Zerkers in Killteam has all but turned to dust. Chainswords won't connect with any sort of elite units, and only one model in a kill team can take any sort of special melee weapon. It seems like the only viable non-leader melee is just cultist spam.
Yeah!
Chaos marines need some real CC weapons for their troups (and loyalist marines too: I need my assault marines (without jump packs, ok)).
Yesterday's game, my bolter tacticals have charged (ok.. but I have not enough space to fall back... and marines don't fall back to heretics... and mine were blood angels, so... for the Emperor and Sanguinius: Charge!!!) the chaos marines (to prevent them to charge me) nearly at the start of the game and, during all the game, they all stayed engaged. Even with the bonus attack of the chain sword, the chaos marines have not enough punch to hit then hurt then make me failing my armor save.
With the help of command point rerolls: three rounds of stalemate.
And during this time, the rest of my troops have been able to shoot the other chaos marines and finaly won the game.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Running mass autogun cultists with a level 2 "inspiring" aspiring champion leader and a few screening ccw cultists is pretty strong. It plays a lot like 40k Abaddon cultist horde lists except without the heavy weapons gunline. Cultists have incredible shooting output for 4 pts/model. 2 marine gunners have been fun to have around for some harder shots here and there, along with some decently effective close combat potential, but mass autogun/flamer cultists can just be devastating. Especially if everyone's in cover anyway and hitting on 5s/6s. Literally two points per bullet once you're in rapid fire range. So fire I've won every game where I just turtled 12+ cultists with marine support. I lost the ones where I tried to split my forces or surround the enemy, mainly due to morale. Killing dudes is actually very difficult in kill team so if you have means to stack morale buffs mass cultists becomes very hard to deal with. Flesh wounds and flamers are the biggest threat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
locarno24 wrote:
So....any advice for someone considering a pure cultist force?
Theoretically the kill-team is pretty simple - a team leader, two gunners and 17 cultists. The question is a balancing act of autoguns vs autopistol/brutal assault weapon and flamer vs heavy stubber.

~ Rapid fire weapons on BS4+ models look pretty sucky at 13"+ range, but getting close enough to rapid fire at targets in the clear means (a) moving up close to opponents who are much scarier in melee (even genestealer cultists with rifle AND pistol), and (b) not focusing, so if advancing on an enemy firebase you have to eat enemy rapid fire first.

~ At the same time, even most kill team's "shooty" fire teams can probably beat large numbers of autopistol armed cultists in a fair fight.

~ Only having two gunners is painful compared to guard, but you do get a full 20-model team with no compromises.

~ Flamers are nice, reliable damage on the can't-hit-for-toffee cultist, but will need some autopistol meat shields.

~ Heavy stubbers' range and the option of the Inevitable Self Destructing Cultist (AKA Beseech The Dark Gods) does make a heavy stubber half decent - pretty much on a par with a marine heavy bolter, in fact.



Just saw your post, but yeah, this is what I've been doing and it's been working out. Marines are fun to have but in terms of killy potential per points I think cultists are a much better value. I watched a lone ccw cultist solo charge a purestrain genestealer earlier today and mace it to death before it could strike back. There are a lot of potentially incredible trades against all of the squishy T3 glass cannon units out there. I haven't fought mass T4+ yet so I don't know how that will go. Probably not great. But then again, 14+ cultists focus firing at you isn't really something you can ignore even for a space marine. Like I said, feels a lot like 40k. CSM have always made great use of the unwashed masses.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/08/06 12:40:23


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



West Midlands

I was planning on 5 marines, and the rest as cultists, while I'm enjoying customising the marines, how viable is this?

Also, autogun cultists vs autopistol/CCW, which is best? I figured putting as much fire down as possible was the best, but not sure now.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




ritualnet wrote:
I was planning on 5 marines, and the rest as cultists, while I'm enjoying customising the marines, how viable is this?

Also, autogun cultists vs autopistol/CCW, which is best? I figured putting as much fire down as possible was the best, but not sure now.


I've always ran more autogun cultists since weight of fire has been good to me. But I've also seen what Khorne CCW cultists can do to much pricier enemy T3 models and I'm considering using more...
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



West Midlands

Darn it! to run the Khorne Icon, I'm 2 points over, I'd have to cut the power fist off my champion!

Leader (plasma pistol and power sword)
Heavy (H.Bolter)
Demo (Plasma)
Zealot (BP and CS and Icon of Wraith, with Khorne mark)
Cultist Champion (BAW and AP with Khorne mark)
2x Cultist (BAW and AP, with Khorne mark)
3 Cultists (Autogun)
1 Marine (Bolter)

I wonder if that's a bit too fragmented now, and it would be better with all cultists as khornites. I also wanted to avoid the marks, as I don't want my band to embrace chaos, but I can count it as rabid zealotry inspired in the cultists.
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




barboggo wrote:
ritualnet wrote:
I was planning on 5 marines, and the rest as cultists, while I'm enjoying customising the marines, how viable is this?

Also, autogun cultists vs autopistol/CCW, which is best? I figured putting as much fire down as possible was the best, but not sure now.


I've always ran more autogun cultists since weight of fire has been good to me. But I've also seen what Khorne CCW cultists can do to much pricier enemy T3 models and I'm considering using more...


A mix makes sense. A zealot cultist is a nice use of a 'spare' specialist, and the khorne stratagem is a nice option to have, so unless using an icon, there's no reason to use anything but khorne.

Having a few melee cultists gives you a 'front line' that lets you push the riflemen into the 12" range where they're actually effective without exposing them to being charged where they're next to useless - pistoleers, by comparion, get a pistol shot plus two melee attacks every turn, so stand a reasonable chance of taking someone with them.

Specialists:
The inspiring leader is a good buy for cultist champion
Pyromaniac breacher seems like a nice option.
Heavy stubber - suppressor looks good if you've got 4 extra points to spend.
zealot melee cultist - exultant isn't bad if you can get him in amongt multiple opponents, but that'll probably just result in a quick death. A basic free zealot hits hard for 4 points, especially if stacked with Inevitable Self Destructing Cultist, which gives you 3 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3s and wounding most opponents on 3s.


Is this thread also considering thousand sons? They're the only kill team able to rack up 2+ armour saves and can be entirely armed with flamers, so they're pretty unique in game.

Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2785
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight






Running Nightlords.... no Claws

So are you guys not playing at 1000 points?


 
   
Made in us
Beast of Nurgle




Birmingham, UK

 Stevefamine wrote:
Running Nightlords.... no Claws

So are you guys not playing at 1000 points?


Kill Team is 100 points.
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight






 Dedwoods42 wrote:
 Stevefamine wrote:
Running Nightlords.... no Claws

So are you guys not playing at 1000 points?


Kill Team is 100 points.


the ruleset I have has a 225 point aspiring champion....

I think you have 7e rules

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/08 18:50:50



 
   
Made in gb
Stealthy Dark Angels Scout with Shotgun



Leeds, UK

 Stevefamine wrote:
 Dedwoods42 wrote:
 Stevefamine wrote:
Running Nightlords.... no Claws

So are you guys not playing at 1000 points?


Kill Team is 100 points.


the ruleset I have has a 225 point aspiring champion....

I think you have 7e rules


Nah, I think it's you that has the wrong ruleset/game. In the current Kill Team, a CSM Aspiring Champion is 13 points.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Cosplay Enthusiast/ Warsmith





Gulf Breeze Florida

Herbington wrote:
 Stevefamine wrote:
 Dedwoods42 wrote:
 Stevefamine wrote:
Running Nightlords.... no Claws

So are you guys not playing at 1000 points?


Kill Team is 100 points.


the ruleset I have has a 225 point aspiring champion....

I think you have 7e rules


Nah, I think it's you that has the wrong ruleset/game. In the current Kill Team, a CSM Aspiring Champion is 13 points.


They're looking at the old Shadow War Armageddon rules. I just grabbed my copy off the self to double check.

Iron Within, Iron Without

4250 points

 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight






Which rules are current? The pdf I have from the community site that has the inflated points or the other rule set?

This is what I was making my list with https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/ShadowWar/SWA_Killteams_ENG.pdf so this is the old rules?


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Cosplay Enthusiast/ Warsmith





Gulf Breeze Florida

Unfortunately the rules on the community site are for another game that they released and stopped supporting after 8th dropped

The new rules have much different points costs, but it is available on BattleScribe.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/09 04:12:42


Iron Within, Iron Without

4250 points

 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Protoculturist






RVA

Played my first game and happened to use Heretic Astartes - 4x CSM and 4x Cultists. My MVP was the CSM zealot, who handily took out the opponent's DA Exarch leader in CC. Cultists actually did the bulk of ranged damage as the Eldar scrambled to deal with the CSM.

For those hankering for a proper Khornate list or, like me, a proper Slaaneshi list, just keep in mind there are already 1kSons and DG. WE and EC will be out eventually and will certainly have KTs all their own.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/09 06:37:24


   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





So any tips on a list then...? I’m thinking something like this, but haven’t quite worked out the points yet:
Cultist champion (Leader) w/autogun (to stay out of the way and not get killed)
Aspiring champion (zealot) w/power fist
CSM gunner (Heavy) w/heavy bolter
CSM gunner (sniper, or poss demo) w/plasma gun
Normal chump csm with khorne banner
2 x flamer cultists
2 x ccw cultists
1 x autogun cultist

Think that just about fits. I’d like a couple more autogun cultists but I can’t quite make it fit.
   
Made in gb
Hellacious Havoc




Expecting a giant wolf to start eating the Sun any day now...

Has anyone managed to make an all-CSM kill team viable? I have a bunch of Fallen Angels converted up, but I haven't had a chance to try them out yet. I'm hoping I can get away without needing any cultists (since they don't really fit as allies for the Fallen, IMO)...
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



West Midlands

 Duskweaver wrote:
Has anyone managed to make an all-CSM kill team viable? I have a bunch of Fallen Angels converted up, but I haven't had a chance to try them out yet. I'm hoping I can get away without needing any cultists (since they don't really fit as allies for the Fallen, IMO)...


I tried to make a list, not sure how it will do though.

Aspiring Champion (Leader), BP and PF
CSM (Zealot) BP and CS
CSMG (Demo) PG
CSMG (Heavy) HB
CSM Bolter
CSM Bolter
CSM Bolter

2 points spare.

You could switch another CSM bolter to BP and CS, to give you two close-combat people.
   
Made in gb
Hellacious Havoc




Expecting a giant wolf to start eating the Sun any day now...

Ah, sorry, I was unclear. I already have the kill team built (although I'm not averse to changing things). I'm looking for tactical advice, specifically from people who have played a few games without cultists. What weaknesses does missing out on cultists throw up that I need to compensate for? That sort of thing.

FWIW, this is what I have so far:

Aspiring Champion [16pts]: *No Mark*, Leader, Plasma pistol [1pts], Power sword [2pts]
Chaos Space Marine [13pts]: *No Mark*, Chainsword, Icon of Vengeance [1pts], Zealot
Chaos Space Marine Gunner [16pts]: *No Mark*, Heavy, Heavy bolter [3pts]
Chaos Space Marine Gunner [16pts]: *No Mark*, Plasma gun [3pts], Sniper
Chaos Space Marine [12pts]: *No Mark*, Chainsword
Chaos Space Marine [12pts]: *No Mark*, Boltgun
Chaos Space Marine [12pts]: *No Mark*, Boltgun

It's only 97 points. I know I could afford to give my champion a power fist, but it feels like overkill in a game without vehicles and I'm not sure I want him to be taking a -1 to hit penalty.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





 Duskweaver wrote:
Has anyone managed to make an all-CSM kill team viable? I have a bunch of Fallen Angels converted up, but I haven't had a chance to try them out yet. I'm hoping I can get away without needing any cultists (since they don't really fit as allies for the Fallen, IMO)...


I am running a fallen killteam and i have to disagree with you on cultists not fitting for the fallen.
It is written into the fluff that the fallen are known to go to planets and cause rebellions or convince others to fight for them. Cultists fit this role perfectly. Plus it is very rare for fallen to travel in large groups, so having 4 or so leading some cultists fits perfectly.

To answer your question though, I think straight csm could work, but it would miss out on the benefits of cultists which provide good meatshields, flamers and stubbers and a cheap leader to allow you to make your aspiring champion a zealot instead, which i believe is currently our best close combat option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Either way, chaos are gonna struggle against most other killteams. We just dont do anything better than anyone else.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/09 12:16:03


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Cosplay Enthusiast/ Warsmith





Gulf Breeze Florida

I like the Khorne team with Flamer Demo CSM gunner.

It’s super basic, and nothing we probably haven’t seen a thousand times, but it’s been good to me.



++ Kill Team List (Heretic Astartes) ++

+ Configuration +

List Configuration: Matched Play: Kill Team

+ Leader +

Aspiring Champion Khorne, Leader, Plasma pistol, Power sword

+ Specialists +

Chaos Cultist: Brutal assault weapon and autopistol, Khorne, Zealot

Chaos Space Marine Chainsword, Icon of Wrath, Khorne, Veteran

Chaos Space Marine Gunner Demolitions, Flamer, Khorne

+ Non-specialists +

Chaos Cultist : Brutal assault weapon and autopistol, Khorne

Chaos Cultist Brutal assault weapon and autopistol, Khorne

Chaos Cultist Brutal assault weapon and autopistol, Khorne

Chaos Cultist Brutal assault weapon and autopistol, Khorne

Chaos Cultist : Brutal assault weapon and autopistol, Khorne

Chaos Space Marine Chainsword, Khorne

Chaos Space Marine : Chainsword, Khorne

++ Total: [97pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/10 03:06:39


Iron Within, Iron Without

4250 points

 
   
 
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