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Wow, i think this is a first for me. Usually everyone is complaining about eldar. Marines are balanced because everyone has stuff that chews thru their armor.
Eldar-starcannon, darkreapers
Orks- choppas, choppas, and choppas
guard- my 3 battle cannons
tyranids- rending, monsterous creatures
sisters- meltas and acts of faith
chaos- if you have trouble using chaos, then find another game.
dark eldar- darklances, incubi, and some of the best squad leader upgrades of any army.
necrons- i kill your stuff, you kill my stuff, then half of it gets back up.
tau- railguns..... plasma guns on suits and a new sniper rifle that is hhmmmm whats that AP ohh yeah 3!!!

and before everyone goes off saying yeah your a marine player so your biased. here are my armies Eldar-8k+pts, orks 5k+pts, marines 7k+pts, sisters about 3k pts, IG 5k+pts, necrons 2k pts, chaos 3-4k pts even my least played army has at least 10 games under it. So is a basic marines stat line good, yeah it is. do those good stats mean a thing when the eldar player has 10starcannons shooting 30 shots a turn??? not really.

Neil

do those good stats mean a thing when the eldar player has 10starcannons shooting 30 shots a turn??? not really.

Yea they do, it means that 15 starcannon shots actually hitting kill 12 marines. 180pts of marines killed by how many points of starcannons?

The big thing is that even with the starcannon list, you have the problem that if the starcannons aren't on vehicles, the surviving marines chew through the guardians with their basic gun. If they are on vehicles, assault cannons will tend to mess up the vehicles.

The biggest issue here is that some stuff in that codex needs to be adjusted. Assault Cannons are a no-brainer. Just liek the starcannon was. A cyclone missile launcher is no longer a useful alternative since the assault cannon is clearly better.
Multimelta speeders aren't a useful alternative since the assault cannon can do the job better. Twin-lascannons aren't as useful since an assault cannon can do the job better. See where this is an issue? If all the guns are useful for a SPECIFIC purpose, then players have to actually design their list with tactical considerations and play to the strengths of the list they make. Currently marines shove assault cannons whenever the option is presented and are fine. Just like the starcannon is better than any of the other options because it can do anything they can, better than them, until you reach AV13.

The other issue is that marines are cheap. Not play wise, point wise. A marine has a statline that is almost a bargain at 15pts. Add ATSKNF and they become horribly potent. You can't outnumber a marine force 2 to 1 and have any hope of being able to play attrition. Marine's saves actually cause casualties to be traded higher than a 2 to 1 ratio.

Last night a 70 model Tau army faced 76 templars. His army getting free moves after being shot so they could now be in range with plasma was comical. He had much better saves and I had to literally pick on a unit and blow it to shreds or else the thing became a pain in the very next round. (Single lascannon survives and kills an Ionhead with 1 shot). When you concentrate 600pts of your army and fail to kill 200, that indicates that they are very survivable and probably a little cheap.

Easiest solution for the Assault Cannon: Restrict it's use to Dreadnaughts and Terminators only. Landspeeders shouldn't get the best movement and shooting of the army all in one cheap package. you could still field a ton of assault cannons, but you wouldn't be able to fly circles around our opponent while it happened.

Or make the Assault Cannon not rending. Why the hell they gave rending to a ranged weapon I will never know.

As a Space Marine Player, I have no problem removing rending from the Assault Cannon (it gives me a reason to break out my Multi-melta dread again).

I also don't have any problem in making Drop Pods AV10 all around (there's no reason I can think of that they have a higher AV).

Agrees with nobody on the drop pod issue- no idea why a drop pod should have higher armour, and cost less points than a rhino.

As for the assault cannon, restricting use to terminators and dreadnoughts would be fine by me (dont even use land speeders) and might encourgae players to try using speeders with multi-meltas.

However, without rending very few people would even take the assault cannon to begin with. Perhaps the cannon should only have 3 shots instead of 4 (like 3rd edition)

This could balance the possible chances of the assault cannon getting rending, yet still leave the weapon as a viable option?

For the record I dont use drop pods and only take 2 assault cannons in my 2000 point army.

Wait a minute, are you seriously saying that str6 ap4 heavy4 is not a valid option? That it is not a powerful gun? What are you smoking. That is one heck of a hoard, light vehical killer. It is worth it against skimmers alone.

For the record in my army list I'd still take that option for my tornados.

On my terminators, it'd force me to reconsider the Cyclones.

"Wait a minute, are you seriously saying that str6 ap4 heavy4 is not a valid option?"

How many assault cannons did you see around before they were improved in 4th edition? Droping rending would of course leave the assault cannon as a potent horde killer but only becasue they have 4 shots this edition.

Then again I have always said rending is over-rated, so keeping the cannon at 4 shots would be fine by me (I never get a rending hits anyway)

The reason most people avoided the assault cannon like the plague in third wasn't the number of shots, but the fact it blew up if you rolled triple ones.

"The reason most people avoided the assault cannon like the plague in third wasn't the number of shots, but the fact it blew up if you rolled triple ones."

Ah yes, I forgot that in 3rd edition assault cannons had the Gets Hot! rule.

To be honest, there are an enormous amount of things people are not taking into consideration regarding the balance of Marines, particularly in regards to their shooting.  For example:

I take 6 min/maxed squads of 6 marines each with lascannon/plasma gun, no vet sergeant, and let's just say I play Dark Angels so I don't even have to worry about failing leadership saves.  That is 690 points and 36 models.  I can choose to target six things and have six points from which I can fire.  I have also almost completely sacrificed my ability to hold up in close combat if something assaulty gets in and starts smacking me around as well as my ability to field more effective anti-horde weapons in tacticals.

Now, for 720 points, a Guard player gets two 3 squad platoons for 8 manuever units with lascannon/plasma gun and 70 models.  They can choose 8 targets and can have better fire coverage of the table with 33% more firing points.  They have also retained a fairly effective anti-horde punch due to the ability to put out over 100 lasgun shots at close range.  They also still have the ability to put out even more troops armed in different configurations.

Regarding the ATSKNF rule, I'd say this is well balanced against the fact that your basic Marine has a mere 8 for leadership.  You'd need to spend the points if you want to improve that.  Additionally, other armies have their own special leadership rules.  Sticking with the Guard, if you've ever tried to go up against a Guard player with a Heroic Senior Officer and a Commissar in a squad with the Company Standard and virtually every squad in the army with at least one model within 12", you'll know what rock-hard leadership is.  To take Chaos, an Undivided Mark (for 1 point) is absolutely awesome, and any other mark makes the unit Fearless.

Finally, Space Marine weapons are good, but the longest ranged of them is 48".  If you've ever played on a 4x8 table against Guard in a corner, you know this just isn't good enough.  The Assault Cannon sacrifices significant range over other, more specialized weapons such as lascannons and heavy bolters, and is not cheap to boot.

I'm sorry, but I think the opportunity cost of min/maxing tactical squads is plenty of balance.  If you have a problem with it, learn how to over come that tactic.

Posted By nobody on 06/30/2006 4:18 PM
The reason most people avoided the assault cannon like the plague in third wasn't the number of shots, but the fact it blew up if you rolled triple ones.

Ah, yes, the 1/216 chance of losing the weapon.  I only rolled that twice (ironically on the same turn, the first time I ever used them) in my two years of tournament and friendly play with 3rd Ed assault cannons.  I took them because they added some firepower to my landspeeders and I wanted variety in my terminator squads.  They served me all right, but they weren't the most efficient weapons I fielded.  Now with the 4 rending shots, I don't take any more than I did then.  I want to have some "reach out and touch someone" capabilities, and using Tank Hunters with my Cyclones I find to be quite effective.

"Regarding the ATSKNF rule, I'd say this is well balanced against the fact that your basic Marine has a mere 8 for leadership. You'd need to spend the points Additionally, other armies have their own special leadership rules"

What? Ld 8 for a basic trooper is bloody high, not "mere"
As for special leadership rules, marines have their own- you can take a Master and have your entire army Ld 10!

In Fantasy 8 is a great leadership number, but in 40K almost everyone has it or better.  The only races without a basic 8 are IG, Tau, and Orks, and each has easy ways of overcoming that (Tau Ethereals and Bonding Knives, IG Leadership rule, and Orks Mob Check rule).  Anything you do to improve that leadership costs points and opportunity cost.  Want that Ld10 Master?  That's one less Fearless and Rites of Hatred Chappie who can join any squad, or one less Librarian with any number of nasty powers.  Plus, a single Battle Cannon round can end that little advantage instantly.  You've got so many points sunk into that Master that you can't afford to have him hiding out in the back serving as a leadership battery like you can with IG.

Posted By ChrisLS on 06/30/2006 4:52 PM
In Fantasy 8 is a great leadership number, but in 40K almost everyone has it or better.  The only races without a basic 8 are IG, Tau, and Orks, and each has easy ways of overcoming that (Tau Ethereals and Bonding Knives, IG Leadership rule, and Orks Mob Check rule).  Anything you do to improve that leadership costs points and opportunity cost.  Want that Ld10 Master?  That's one less Fearless and Rites of Hatred Chappie who can join any squad, or one less Librarian with any number of nasty powers.  Plus, a single Battle Cannon round can end that little advantage instantly.  You've got so many points sunk into that Master that you can't afford to have him hiding out in the back serving as a leadership battery like you can with IG.

1. Tau Ethereals are never taken by serious players. I can re-roll anything in LOS, but that means my guy has to be either attached to a squad, which is bad, or hiding behind one, where indirect weapons "happen" to scatter on him and his lack of a save. Whoops, now the whole army has to check. 2. Orks have the mob check. Having fought them I can tell you it doesn't work well when you cut them down so fast that they have to roll a 3 for their mob check. Unlike other leadership re-rolls it is entirely based on size of unit and that means it can be modified by a smart player to be almost useless. 3. You do not lose a Chaplain with the new codex if you really want one. Take the Master, give him 2 lightning claws and terminator honors, now take a retinue and attach the Chaplain. You now have a squad that when it charges has 2 I 5 or 6 ICs with power weapons. Or you could attach the Librarian to the squad. 4. Ignoring everything else, a master naked is less than 80pts. Giving him a power weapon and having him be a countercharge unit means you can usually keep a unit from getting hurt in close combat. As for other stuff: that 720pts of Guard vs 690pts of marines forgot 2 major factors. The guard may get 8 shots, but they both average 4 hits. The marines also have the advantage of being able to rapidfire their plasma with impunity. Guard shooting plasma at close range tend to see their squads reduced to 9 guys and a smoking body. Those plasmas cost the same points and aren't anywhere near as effective. The other problem guard have with this is that the marines have plenty of fast moving choices with which to either cut down guard or force guard to fire into. Heck, marine transports can be equipped to kill either tanks or troops, the Chimera is only good at killing light vehicles and troops.

Heck, marine transports can be equipped to kill either tanks or troops, the Chimera is only good at killing light vehicles and troops.

~Marine Transports are the suk. Drop Pods are King. No Rhino rush and c'mon a razorback.... It's been like 2 years since I've seen anyone take this, and I haven't seen one in a serious list since 4th ed.

~Guard Chimeras are great at their point cost/level of output, better armor and serve as a cheap weapon battery with shots that are great in #.

Chimeras are substandard.  Armor 10 on the side is poppable by anything you are likely to face on average (there's a reason you don't see guard mechanized as muc as in v3).  They are relatively expensive for the firepower they provide-the absence of twin linked is pretty harsh.

Interesting that Tau have a cheaper vehicle, with more shots, better side armor, and is a skimmer.

 

Want to hear something even funnier? Lets take ChrisLS example and place his black templar army 24 inches from a guard army on a open table. We are going to completly ignore moral for this example, Just two sides blasting at each other. Even if the marines shoot first, the guard should own the marines in this instance.... Well guess what? They don't, they get crushed. If you put moral in the picture it just gets even sillier.

First off, if the Guard player puts his troops 24" away from a BT player, he deserves to lose.  Second, if Mr. Guard player does something incredibly stupid like targeting separate BT Crusader squads, he again deserves to lose.

If I'm a Guard player against BTs, here are the things I'm going to do.

1) Hug the board edge, preferably in some kind of corner fortress.
2) Place some sacrificial Sentinels far away from the fortress, but closer to the BTs than the fortress.  Use their Scout moves to place them out of the way of any heavy weapons.  Any Righeous Zeal moves must move towards the closest enemy unit.  If that takes them farther away from my firebase, well that's too bad.
2) Use the tanks and Basilisks first to put pie plates all over those nice little 3+ saves.  Focus in particular any assault marines or other fast movers.  Hopefully the Basilisks will pin the buggers.
3) Use my lascannons and missile launchers to finish off any squads that were hit by the big guns.  Keep the fire focused on one squad at a time.  You can't get a Righteous Zeal move if you're a smoking crater, and if two BTs get to move an exta 6", who cares?
4) If any of the BTs do manage to get close enough, move the squad (WHAT?!? Guard MOVE?) out of range of the charge to allow other overlapping fields of fire to finish the BTs off.  If that isn't possible, move the squad into rapid fire range and hope my plasma gunner takes one of the power armored fiends with him.  Fair trade in my mind, and if I get lucky I kill two of them.  Also, have a squad of Ogryns backing up the infantry as a counter-charge unit.

That, gentlemen, is called TACTICS.  Try using them before calling for rules changes.

Midnight makes some good points, and I'd say those are effective ways to use the Marines.  I still make the arguement that you do sacrifice something when you give up the opportunity to have independent characters who can join any squad.  Plus, if you start stacking up characters in a command squad (and remember, they must be part of a command squad) you're sinking an ENORMOUS amount of points into that squad.  It also leaves open the possibility of dropping pie plates on them and killing them all with one shot.

Under the old rules, yes, taking an Ethereal wasn't the greatest idea, but particularly now that they can have BS4 Fire Warrior body guards, that's pretty darn good.  Not everyone is going to take it, but there is stil something to be said for it.

For Orks, mob checks are most effective with numerous, massive mobs.  Yeah, one or two mobs will get nailed, but if you've got 6 of 20, that is OK.  Play Kult of Speed and it's not an issue since you're in close combat on Turn 2.

I maintain the point still exists - in 40K Ld8 is average, not exceptional.

another point that most people seem to miss is that in 40k the marine stat line is considered the base line of the game, not the guardsmen. fantasy uses the base human as its baseline for points.

you also cant use base troopers of each army as the test of wether or not an army is over-under powered. as this does not take into account the Support avail to each army. Marines have the best basic troopers, get over it. that is their strength.

I have to agree with chrisL tactics are key. you dont use, them you dont win. Where I play the marines are about 50-50 (win lose record), but that is because the non-marine generals dont try to use their troops as crappy marines. they use them as they are meant to be used.

neil

Thank you for proving my point. The fact that the Marine player does not have to use tactics, and that the guard player does indicates that there is no balance. What happens to the guard player when the black templar player uses tactics? Hmmm? What hapens when he blows up the av10 open topped vehical? What happens when his drop pods rain down on you? What happens when he uses cover to advance to with in charge range? What happens when he gets with in that oh so short 36"inch minimum range of the indirect bassie? What I did was to put the guard in the MOST favorable conditions for them, no close combat, no moral, no blocked firing lanes, and you know what happend? They still lost. Do not talk to me about tactics.

Oh yeah, in the simulation I ran, the entire guard army focused on one BT squad at a time until the heavy weapon and plasma gun were destroyed. However the black templar player did the same. I even ran it so that the command squads were targeted last even though any smart player would have shot at them first (5 bodies to drop a plasma gun and lascannon).

I reread the posts. I did not see where either of us said that marines do not need tactics.

I am sorry that you have so much trouble defeating Marines, I really am. I wish that i could tell you that i have trouble with them too, but I do not. Point is i usually wipe out the marines. The marine players are usually whining about how "broken" and "cheesy" IG are. The marine players just have trouble getting points out of a guard army. I beat marines with a balanced force, if I Min/Max and drop the H.bolters, grenade launchers and autocannon i usually take its even worse for the marines.
Just because you have trouble beating a specific army does not mean that the army is "broken" what you need to do is reevaluate your tactics, and your ability to deploy your army.

Neil

Well I am happy you have no problem beating the 6 year olds in your neighborhood. I do pretty good myself, win the majority of my games and even taken a local RTT or two, but that is neither hear not their. In the future please refute my arguments before making snippy comments. You tell me., in ChrisLS example, on an open field at 24 inch range, with no ld taken into account. How many marines are left on the board, assuming that the marines shoot first? You can do it however you like. Personally I just took averages 8 lascannons and 8 plasma guns firing kills 7 marines.

Um, you fire the Basilisk directly?  You can still do that, you know.  And I'll point out that the 24" was your example, not mine.  Again, if Guard (or just about anyone but Tyranids) sets up within 24" of Templars, they deserve what they get.

Every tactic has a counter.  Drop pods?  Scatter the force so he can't tie everybody up with one or two squads or field close combat units (Ogryns, Grey Knights, Arco-flagellants - remember you can field allies) that can counterattack.  Lots of cover?  Force him to go through the difficult terrain by controlling the fire lanes and drop indirect on him.  Use Leman Russes.  Is he going to get in close combat anyway?  Here's a fun one - field a command squad with lots of advisors: Priest with eviserator, psycher with Honorifica Imperialis and force weapon, commissar with power fist, plus the heroic senior officer himself.  Make sure you include a medic, give the HSO the Medallion Crimson and an invulnerable save.  Use Stormtroopers with lots of plasma.  Use demolition charges (I have had my world rocked by those things playing Deathwing).

In the end, this is a game, and a balanced game contrary to your beliefs.  There are counters to everything.  If you don't enjoy it, as for help or play something else.  I'm obviously not changing your mind, so I'm going to take a break from the hofflenosh.

Tell me then ChriLS, what is the IG counter for a dropping librarian with fear of the darkness?

This isn't about Marines, and I apologize, but I need to say this. So, Chris, think this game is "balanced"? Well, consider Orks and Tyranids. They are both supposed to be armies that focus on assault, right? So, they should both be equally good at assault, with some variations, right? Wrong. Tyranids can do everything Orks can do, better and for less points. They even outshoot Orks if they want to.

Also, I must assume that you've never played against Dark Eldar, because anyone who has played as or against DE and goes on to claim that 40k is "balanced" is either a raving loon or a bald-faced liar. Don't get me wrong, I'm not slinging mud at you here, I'm just saying: play against DE. They will lose and lose hard unless you don't use tactics. And if you're Marines they'll still lose. I have a buddy who plays DE. His win-loss record is currently 0-9 with his current list. His previous lists did worse.

ThisIsBatCountry: Local guy plays witch cult. He does pretty well. only starts two squads on the table. rest in the webway. when they come on they move twelve, disembark 2", fleet and then assault. its pretty sick. He does well with them. Has some bad games but seems to winn more than lose.

foil7102: i see one problem with your example. you dont set up your troops within 24" of marines. preferably you set up outside of 32" that way he has to move 2 turns to get into bolter range.this is easier to do with the scenarios that set up in corners. HIs bolters will eat you up i will agree with that. the key with guard is that most other armies basic weapons are better than the lasgun. what you have to do is make your opponent(with whatever army not just marines) decide if he wants to duel at long range or spend a few turns moving up. Many marine playes take a minimum of H-bolters in their armies wich makes the dueling option less palatable. unless you take tanks. then his lascannon squads stay put to pour fire into your tanks. giving your troopers more time to fire into the marine squads that are advancing. really though it comes down to who is a better player. if the marine player is better. he will win if the guard player is better than he willl win. also remember to keep in mind mission objectives. I have won games that i otherwise would have lost because i kept in mind what the mission was about.

To focus on the whole thread though some armies do need a boost. I agree that orks have gone to long without an update and they need one. Kult of speed is pretty good, but the footsloggers need a bump. It is just poor logic to say my orks are underpowered in X way so then my oponents armies need to be depowered. the proper response would be my orks are underpowered in Y way and they could be improved in this way.

Some armies also do better against certain opponents for example orks, especially kult of speed own marine armies with lots of terminators due to the choppa. Eldar typically due well against marines, this is why i am not surprised about the rumor of the decrease in the starcannons stats.

Can we get back to the point of this?

Marines have toys for countering any occasion, extremely cheap heavy weapons, a weapon that can pull any role required of it, and have the ability to boost their Leadership along with a special rule that means it is unlikely you will ever get them to leave the field. While other armies have some of these, none except some flavors of Chaos have all of these.

They are also cheaper than they should be with that statline and ATSKNF. Considering the cliff of armor save effectiveness that is 3+ vs anything worse, they are making out like bandits.

So how do we fix this so that Marine Players will still have a forgivable army that allows mistakes while not being one that allows you to dispense with tactics and just pull some gimmick that wins the game or just slog it out and never care about doign anything in the way of tactics?