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You want to balance marines eh.... I sware this thread comes up like every week, here up their point cost, make librarian's fear less broken, make assault cannons either with 2-3 shots or lose the friggin word rending, put limits on minmax squads i.e. you may take 1 special/hvy weapon for every 5 members of a squad....

Seriously, now eveyone let it die, marines are good and they have great gear, do you think any of us moaning means a thing to the rules? If you don't like it, make some house rules, or just look at black templars, they are god forsakenly terrible now.

What Blank says is so true. this topic soes keep coming up with the same argument. to Quote Blank "Seriously, now eveyone let it die, marines are good and they have great gear, do you think any of us moaning means a thing to the rules?"

Amen to that

While I respect your opinion and your right to have your evil marines soundly defeated by my armored company in battle, this is a Proposed Rules Forum. Kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it???

this is a Proposed Rules Forum. Kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it???

I know that haha, but what I went on to say was....

If you don't like it, make some house rules

Proposed rules for me means let's have fun twinking with the rules at home or your local game group and see how it works out for you... I know marines are insert x complaint here that's why I propose everyone just uses at home ideas to balance scenarios and armies but understands at tournements youwill see those 15 assault cannons and 2 librarians comming after you.

ok lets propose that every body should play marines and ditch the other armies. balance attained.

sounds like what GW already wants...

I don't think marines are unbalanced. Sure, from a line 'em up knock 'em down perspective those las/plas squads seem like the best unit it the game.

1-games of 40k are supposed to be played with roughly 25% of the board covered in terrain. The lack of mobility in these units is going to be a real problem with one or two size three pieces of terrain anywhere near the middle of the board.
2-how will they sieze objectives? How will they do when they have to move (recon)?
3-edlar starcannon cheese armies will eat those small squads for breakfast
4-What about hords of orcs, traitor guard, nurglings?


I've played against armies like this with Tau, Black Tempars, and Dark Eldar and I've never found them broken. Sometimes I lose and sometimes I win. That sounds plenty balanced to me!

I am definately not scared of marines, I know the assault cannon is powerful but let the following cheer you up.

I just found out that the AC comes one per sprue in the £25 box of termies. So the typical two squads with two comes to a £100 layout. Just smile. (Sorry I don't know what that is in USD).

I've been told that a bit of fun can be had by advertising an AC on the online auction site

Ooh, this one looks like it'll be fun to answer, since the marines I use for tournaments uses 6 man las/plas squads extensively, so here's your answers:

1-games of 40k are supposed to be played with roughly 25% of the board covered in terrain. The lack of mobility in these units is going to be a real problem with one or two size three pieces of terrain anywhere near the middle of the board.

I've actually played many games against this scenario. Only a couple of armies can really benefit from this terrain setup (CTM eldar and tyranids come to mind). Of course, the main thing to do when setting up terrain is to make sure that 2 ft by 2 ft square of woods is off in a corner

2-how will they sieze objectives? How will they do when they have to move (recon)?

Your las/plas squads make sure that your opponent's heavy units can't claim objectives, and your land speeders/assault marines/bikers/drop podders/vehicles/mounted troops handle objective taking.

3-edlar starcannon cheese armies will eat those small squads for breakfast

Last tournament game I played was against one of these. I managed to make sure all of my squads were in cover (thanks to the 25% terrain rule you mentioned in #1 above) and we basically slugged it out to a tie. The main thing to remember here is that the las/plas squads can fill multiple roles, from shooting a wraithlord one turn, to double tapping that seer council fleet-of-prancing into your lines the next.

4-What about hords of orcs, traitor guard, nurglings?

The main thing to remember here is that the las/plas squads are extremely cheap, allowing you to take several in an army and still take plenty of other toys. For example, in my current list I run 5 las/plas squads. I also run a 8 man/4 heavy bolter dev squad, 2 AC/HB land speeders, an assault squad with 2 flamers, a librarian with fury/fear, and a term command squad with 2 assault cannons. Needless to say, I can handle hordes very well.

wow the modesty lol

Simply take the Lascannon away from the Marine troop, vet, and Dev squads as an option. Make the Missile Launcher the strongest anti-armor weapon the basic marine troop can have. Save Lascannons for vehicles and that's that.

It will deter marines from getting into long range firefights, which can encompass an entire enemy army, while their assault elements make the move forward. The lascannons will be relicated to Predators and Dreads.

Posted By the cabbage on 07/27/2006 3:05 AM
I am definately not scared of marines, I know the assault cannon is powerful but let the following cheer you up.

I just found out that the AC comes one per sprue in the £25 box of termies. So the typical two squads with two comes to a £100 layout. Just smile. (Sorry I don't know what that is in USD).

I've been told that a bit of fun can be had by advertising an AC on the online auction site

I hate to burst your bubble but some sealed boxes of old termies off eBay (just won another set for $20) and some of the old metal Assault Cannon bits makes for some nice cheap Assault Cannon termies that still look good.

You can bits order the metal land speeder assault cannons. They are real cheap.  With a little bit of dremel/file time and some putty, they end up looking far better than the stock donkey cannon arm. My BT termies are armed with one of each. I wish I had converted both.

Response to an earlier post:

I didn't mean to imply that min/maxed las/plas squads were worthless. They are a mean unit; however, almost every army has something a little broken.

Personally, I don't think the balance of the game has ever been better. Lets look at the "cheese armies over the years"
2nd ed-Space Wolves + Eldar (mostly Eldar)
3rd ed-Biel Tan Eldar, Dark Eldar, rhino rush (BT, SW, Nurgle Chaos), Iron warriors

I can't think of a 4th ed army that dominates like rhino rush or second ed eldar. I would be hard pressed to name one for this edition, maybe Iron Head?

Sure, vanilla marines have gone from semi-pathetic army to a powerful force. A termie command unit with a librarian should be something to be scared of; your opponent paid through the nose for it (in real life and in game)! I'll buy the critisism that marines are a forgiving army to play. Forgiving doesn't mean broken and taking a marine army to a tourney hardly guarantees victory.

well said ninjajuicer

Thanks,

I'm just glad to see vanilla marines doing something. If any marines need fixing, it is the non-codex chapters.

I used to feel guilty playing both DE and BT. That's part of the reason I sold the DE and went with Tau. Fortunately, the recent codex has really toned down the templars: points costs went up (vows and initiates), the always hit on a 3+ no longer applies to monstrous creatures and independant characters, the EC cannot snipe powerfists on squad characters, assault squads no longer "fall forward" 3d6 inches, and librarians are a potent option for codex chapters. My only (very minor) complaint is that the Land Raider Crusader cannot move 12' and fire the hurricane bolters anymore.

I imagine that blood angels and space wolves will get a similar well thought out treatment. Though, BA never seemed as bad as BT or SW...IMHO.  I'm not that familiar with Blood Angels; I could be totally wrong about that. If I had to guess, I could see wolves losing or paying more for some of the extra powerfists and plasma pistols.  Blood claw bikers, Wolf Guard termies, and long fangs might need a small points drop.

One interesting thing about the las/plas combo is that, if taken in a 10 man tac squad, it's horribly flexible. Consider: Lascannon pops tanks from up to 48" away, or a 2+ 3+ 4+ troop from the same distance. Plasma gun toasts heavy infantry up to 24" away. The remaining 8 bolters in the squad, though, provide anti-5+ 6+ save defense. Throw in a few heavy bolters, and Marines can deal with any challange.

Where virtually any other army has to specifically tool up to devistate hordes or heavies, Marines can do either; the former with their small arms, the latter with their las/plas.

Now, my vote for how to balance Space Marines would be to do absolutly nothing for them for the next 4 years, and release new codicies for everybody else.

Somehow, i think 40k would be a better game if a 3+ save wasn't something you faced.....what, 66% of the time at tournies?

yeah marines should have a 2+ save and termies should have 1+. the only way to make a termie die is to shoot it with an ap1 gun, yes not many of those, he he, and the marine would be taken out by las or plasma guns, not stupid pie templates

The easiest way to fix Space Marines is to have a die roll at the beginning of the game before deployment. If the roll is a 2+, the Marines automatically win. If the roll is a 1, then the Space Marines loose. In the case of Marines vs Marines, the two players dice off and the highest roll wins instead.

Its either that, or making all Marines have 6 wounds and ignore instant-kill or lowering the all xenos and traitor weapons to S3, and non-astartes armies have WS2 BS2.

well said keezus

yeah so those whining non SM player who call SM armies beardy,cheasy will actually have a ligitimate excuse to moan.

Certainly, because no SM players think that marines need to be looked at balance-wise

Haha. There's no such thing as an "overpowered list" in GWs vocabulary. Just codecies with "units which are challenging to use". 

Discounting sub-dexes, here is a selection of the aforementioned "fluffy units which are challenging to use"... (Based solely off experience on frequency of facing these units - between 0-5 encounters, 3rd edition to present.)

Daemonhunters (*): Arco-Flagelents, Death Cult Assassin (Though the entire list falls into the "challenging to use category"
Eldar (9): Dire Avengers, Wave Serpents, Wraithguard, Swooping Hawks, Jetbikes, Shining Spears, Fire Prism, Support Batteries, War Walkers
Orks (8): Stickbommas, Shoota Boyz, Flash Gitz, Kommandos, Stormboyz, Lobbaz, Battlewaggon, Dreadnought
Tyranids (5): Warriors, Zoanthropes, Raveners, Lictors, Gargoyles
Imperial Guard (5): Sanctioned Psykers, Tech Priest Engiseer, Conscripts, Ogryn, Mortar Teams
Witchunters (4): Inquisitor Lord, Stormtroopers, Sisters Repentia, Penitent Engine
Tau (4): Pathfinders, Vespid, Skyray, Gun Drone Squadron
Chaos (3): Possessed, Raptors, Flamers/Horrors
Dark Eldar (3): Scourges, Grotesques, Mandrakes
Necrons (3): Flayed Ones, Pariahs, Tomb Spiders
Marines (2): Veterans, Land Speeder Typhoon

So, in conclusion, since Marines have "challenging" units too, so they are clearly balanced against the other lists. Some lists are just more "challenging" to use than others.

actually arco flags are under Witchhunters, so that's 5 units for them

CHAOS possesed should not be in that list, same with the ork battle wagon and none of the Nid should be there1

ninjajuicer> I can't think of a 4th ed army that dominates like rhino rush or second ed eldar. I would be hard pressed to name one for this edition, maybe Iron Head?

?

What? Do you play often? Have you ever faced any of these:

9 Obliterator Iron Warriors and Bang?

9 Landspeeder Tornadoes and 6 dreadnaughts?

Ultramauleens?

3 Pyramid Necrons, the nightbringer and max destroyers?

3 Super Falcons and the sniper army of Eldar doom?

21 Starcannons...

There are plenty out there, and guess what, they're almost all MEq or about to be redone.

How to balance Marines? Return the assault cannon to Heavy 3, and get rid of rending.  Make Drop pods 80 points.  Remove the Marine Doctrines.  Force marines to come in squads of 10 like the old days, no 6 men squads. That'd do it. 

Augustus, I actually agree with a most of those.

You also forgot the 4 Librarian Drop Pod army of doom, but that might fit into the 6 dread list.

And beef, he stated that he's basing it off of units he rarely sees people use in games in his area. In my area the list is a little different, but it's partly because Godzilla's rare here (and as far as chaos goes, there is so much out there that's more efficient than possessed).

what are ultramauleens?? this argument goes round and round, then reapears again a month later. Marines are the most played army out there. its GW main cash cow. if they made marines gak then Gw would lose alot of sales and thats not what they want. Its profit driven not balance driven. If the marines are supposed to be the emporors elite and in game terms they are crap who would bother with them?? not the youngerkids who bring in most of the business. no matter how much old timers pay on Gw products the Kids bring the majority of cash flow into the business. Also alot of older players would not bother to much if they mae marines any crapper. Nearly Every army has had it hayday in 2nd or 3rd edition. its the space marines turn now.

And of course thats why I keep the old armored company around, to hear the wailing and gnashing of young marine punks.

BUAHAHAHAHA

On the other hand is it GW's cash cow because of the rules and support? Make other armies strong, support them fully and their sales will go up as well.

Here's an example of ultramalueens:

1xMaster w/Twin LC, Term Armour Furious Charge
1x4 Term Command Squad w/2 AC, Furious Charge

1xEpistolary w/Term Armour, Fury, Fear
1x4 Term Command Squad w/2 AC, Furious Charge

4x6 SM w/Las, plas

1x6 Assault Marine w/2 Flamers, Meltabombs, Sergeant w/power fist

2x1 Land Speeder w/AC, HB

1x8 Devs w/4 HB

1x6 Devs w/3 ML

I think that's about right, might be off at a point or two.