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Posted By Blank on 06/27/2006 3:07 PM
Where's the dead horse..... Oh, here it is, let's beat it some more. Blah blah blah, marines are good

Right on, brother. Don't just line up across the field and complain about how the odds are stacked against you. Of COURSE an army that's good all-around is going to kill you in that situation. Quit worrying about Marines and learn how to play with your own army. A hard-fought victory achieved by sound tactics against a tough opponent is better any day than winning with an army that has everything going for it.

Hawkes, You just proved that you do not think before you post.

Hi, I am an army thats supposed to be really really good at shooting, but crappy at everything else
Oh, Hello, I am an army that is supposed to be pretty good at everything

So who is going to win when these two armies line up and shoot at each other???

The fact that it is the space marines, the army that is just supposed to be pretty good at everything, who win makes things a little odd.

The problem may well lie in the nature of the game system.  Close combat and shooting just don't work terribly well together - armies are best when they only have a few shooting units to pick off the more vulnerable but entrenched enemy shooters or when they only have a few CC units to act as counterassault or as speed bumps.

Since the design principle behind Marines is that they're supposed to be bringing equal parts CC and shooting, they're balanced for that kind of play.  Therefore, when someone breaks the design by bringing a list weighted heavily towards shooting (or CC, I suppose, but that's more a Blood Angels and Chaos thing), the army is overpowered.

The game simply doesn't allow for an army to work best with an even mix of unit types.  The rules reward a player for bringing homogenous defensive profiles and for focusing on a single phase in which to do damage.

I think SM have always been the best force throughout all editions; because: GW suck d*ck [though they do make great miniatures - too f***ing expensive!]

I use 40K rules with Copplestone Castings minis (check out their future wars stuff its excellent!) more gritty less homo-errotic for sure!

Why do they alway have to make everything look so kooky!  The  mind boggles! Their Middle Earth stuff is good (cos they are proportioned - but the rules for LOTR are sh*t to say the least!)

GW who'd 'ave 'em!

Space Marines: Its all rigged; its all rigged for the love of the emperor (or whatever deity you worship) IT IS ALL RIGGED! F***ing A**holes...  and why not make it boring!  We crave disenfranchisement anyway so what the hell [though i might add other than a couple of LOTR minis i ain't given them suckers a dime for a long time - Facist Pigs that they are!]

I feel better for that!

To sum up: Check out Copplestone Castings, Future Wars! (saying that; they're £1.50 a model now! shock horror!)

I know lets make a shop that sells miniatures and then price them to the extent that no-one (in their riight mind) buys them.  Thats a good idea! Pay our employees jack sh*t and live the high life spending a fortune on cocain and prostitutes!

And all in the name of kids toys, no less... you make me sick GW; oh yes you do...

...Oh, you don't give a rats ass! Well thats all fine and dandy then you Zenophobic Imperialist era craving zealots; thats just great, why don't you just grab the money and run...

...Oh, you already did!  I'm so glad for you... ...F***ing B*st*rd inbred (spelling?) Capitalists!

Word!

Posted By Danja on 07/14/2006 12:46 PM
I think SM have always been the best force throughout all editions; because: GW suck d*ck [though they do make great miniatures - too f***ing expensive!]

I use 40K rules with Copplestone Castings minis (check out their future wars stuff its excellent!) more gritty less homo-errotic for sure!

Why do they alway have to make everything look so kooky!  The  mind boggles! Their Middle Earth stuff is good (cos they are proportioned - but the rules for LOTR are sh*t to say the least!)

GW who'd 'ave 'em!

Space Marines: Its all rigged; its all rigged for the love of the emperor (or whatever deity you worship) IT IS ALL RIGGED! F***ing A**holes...  and why not make it boring!  We crave disenfranchisement anyway so what the hell [though i might add other than a couple of LOTR minis i ain't given them suckers a dime for a long time - Facist Pigs that they are!]

I feel better for that!

To sum up: Check out Copplestone Castings, Future Wars!

 

Wow if thats not a cry for help I don't know what is :kiss:

Not so much a cry for help but a need for justice and liberty in the world of gaming.

Keep the faith my brothers!

There will be a day when all gamers of sound mind can go get some minis, and still have enough for the bus ride home and a couple of pints of the good stuff (age restrictions apply).  Untill then I think it is justified to *female dog* and moan!

I don't see the point sticking with a bunch of money grabbing (I'll stop swearing now) monkeys, when there is a world of (at least more) affordable high quality miniatures out there...

...I mean i can remember when it was £2.50 a blister; what is it now £6 odd, that is way off the mark... lets pay the shareholders yay!

Lets not pay the share holders, lets have a damn good game of something cool with the people we like!  and support an independant Casting business...

Word up!








And don't get me started on Warhammer [what the hell has happened there in the last ten years - the models look like idiots in armour nower days!]

A cry for help! don't make me puke! Suddenly ive got cheaper minis that look more realistic - oh yeh i need help from GW, I thinkist not my good friend!

Posted By Danja on 07/14/2006 1:05 PM
Not so much a cry for help but a need for justice and liberty in the world of gaming.

Keep the faith my brothers!

There will be a day when all gamers of sound mind can go get some minis, and still have enough for the bus ride home and a couple of pints of the good stuff (age restrictions apply).  Untill then I think it is justified to *female dog* and moan!

I don't see the point sticking with a bunch of money grabbing (I'll stop swearing now) monkeys, when there is a world of (at least more) affordable high quality miniatures out there...

...I mean i can remember when it was £2.50 a blister; what is it now £6 odd, that is way off the mark... lets pay the shareholders yay!

Lets not pay the share holders, lets have a damn good game of something cool with the people we like!  and support an independant Casting business...

Word up!

 

Okkkk...






And don't get me started on Warhammer [what the hell has happened there in the last ten years - the models look like idiots in armour nower days!]

A cry for help! don't make me puke! Suddenly ive got cheaper minis that look more realistic - oh yeh i need help from GW, I thinkist not my good friend!

If its any consolation i feel a damn sight better for that rant; and let's face it, its time someone said it!

I mean basing the SM's on medieval knights how homo is that!

I bet they all bang each other in the tub like Football players after the big game!  I mean Spacewolves and Ultramarines are cool but to think they invented Black Templars and Imperial fists (though that is quite a cool name to be fair)!

What is going on here!

Orks are good but they make 'em expensive to buy and easily defeatable, what use is that!  Might as well just take your money and whip you to within an inch of your life for christ sake!


Actually going against what i said earlier the minis are better nowerdays (at least 40K - the Fantasy stuff looks well stupid!) but at 80p per plastic [or whatever the USDollar is] is just plain selfish, twisted, money grabbing filth in all its deplorable ugliness!  Still a good game thoughto be fair...

Getting back to the thread at hand: I think SM models should cost at least 18pts and the people who use them should be publicly shamed for jumping on the band wagon!

Word!

What exactly is the point of this discusion?? does anything actually come of it??
MArines Are the points they are. Simple as that. Untill one of you guys either works for GW making there new codexs or kidnaps the head of GW and forces him to make the changes on your behalf marine will stay as they are.

They are the emporors Finest. Get over it already.

40K proposed rules.

You know, so we can propose how to fix things.

yeah you guys keep proposing. who actually changes the rules?? is this like a national movement?? me thinks not. do you send your proosed rules to GW with some signatures for them to briefly consider then put in the bin with all the other sensible requests they get sent from hobbyiest around the world.?? they will not change as somebody put it earlier SM are GW glory boys. if they play crap not many people would play gw. SM are there little cash crop. Remember most people originally got into the hobby with SM>

yeah you guys keep proposing. who actually changes the rules?? is this like a national movement?? me thinks not. do you send your proosed rules to GW with some signatures for them to briefly consider then put in the bin with all the other sensible requests they get sent from hobbyiest around the world.?? they will not change as somebody put it earlier SM are GW glory boys. if they play crap not many people would play gw. SM are there little cash crop. Remember most people originally got into the hobby with SM

Many players will, within their group, adopt house rules to make changes to armies that are OTT or too weak (HBMC's group, I think, has pretty much re-written all of the codices and most of the rulebook for their own games). GW has also (well, used to anyway), changed rules in the past after feedback from gamers. Examples include terminators having 5+ invulnerable saves, the Ork Klanz, and the "Second Edition" Dark Eldar and Dark Angel codices.

As Chapter Approved went bye-bye and the dev staff lost a good chunk of their people, the chance of any modification being made is probably nil. The hope persists, however.

I for one, not being a Marine player, think that marines aren't that unbalanced at all. Sure their basic trooper is cheap, their heavy weapons are cheap and they have decent units for every tactical problem. BUT: there are, in the various codecies around, numerous, nay, countless units that can do certain jobs better. And you have to consider this into the point aspect of, lets say, a basic marine.

On the other hand, there are some things that go over the top in this jack of all trades army. I think we can all agree that the Assault cannon went overboard with increased firerate AND rending. And additionally, i think that the Landspeeder is the best light-skimmer in all armies. Maybe this is suppoerted by the fact that it can carry Assaultcannons.

I think we have to focus on some areas in the coex and it's possible to get it in line with the rest of the 4th edition ones.

Greets
Schepp himself

P.S. Librarians and Drop Pods also come to mine, with an the first one being the more OOT than the letter.

I hear that but don't quite believe it at this point.
-shooting. What list has a more efficient list than the min/max las/plas combo, or the 12-5000 assault cannon list?

-HTH I can see Nids being equal. Absent our Raid repulsed friends, what list is better than a powered up BA list in the HTH department?

Khorne. Of course they are marines too....

There are some armies out there that have a good chance of winning in hand to hand against marines, the problem is getting them there in the numbers you'll need to win.

I can't see Khorne as being advantageous in CC vs. BA's.  BA's have death company and furious charge for free.  Khorne you have to pay for the Mark (and don't get the option to drop pod in close) .

 

But that is personal opinion only and I grant they are quite powerful (and as you said - marines heh heh).  Dark red marines vs. red marines : )

Posted By nobody on 07/17/2006 2:13 PM
There are some armies out there that have a good chance of winning in hand to hand against marines, the problem is getting them there in the numbers you'll need to win.

Exactly.  on an efficiency basis they are hard to top, although I wil freely grant there is far better competition on the HTH side.

 

On the shooty side I don't see an efficient comparable (new eldar codex not included).  They are cheap, have minimal support requirements, can flesh out with A cannons.

-IG are quite shooty but the BS 3 really mitigates, and they actually pay more for their lascannons.

-Tau are very shooty, but aren't as cost efficient when the BS and more rare use of low AP comes into play.

 

Many players will, within their group, adopt house rules to make changes to armies that are OTT or too weak


well thats fine if you belong to a gaming club as not all people do, most have to go to there local GW store and some only play at tournies. I still dont see the complaint with assualt cannons? ok they have greatly increased there usefullness. in 3rd they were crap. A heavy bolter was better. My argument is really simple. I play SW and get beat by the sheer firepower of Tau armies I play. I could either learn to use what I have better or play Tau myself. Its no point me moaning about how its not fair they have str 5 guns etc.

I prefer my wolves as they look better. Tau just look like frogs. If I want to win more games I should play Tau but seeing as I cant be bothered to paint them or play with them i stick to my marines.

Remember marines have to be abit better otherwise nobody would buy them.. GW would lose money as marines are there main cash cow.

B..e..e..e..f...

-its a discussion thread, therefore options will be discussed. For good or ill the werekind comes woops sorry I digress.

-hey how can puppies not look better

-But you can put as much firepower on the board as the Tau player. Get those A cannons whirring!

-However I take issue that marines HAVE to be better. They are popular for avariety of reasons. If other lists were better you'd still see a lot of mainres, but the other lists would have more sales as well.

I disagree most people in the hobbey prefer the marines due top the fluff and the fact all the kids want to be superhuman soldiers in space, they dont want to be some pointy eared fairy or some frog looking mudskipper thing. People get into the hobby through the marines. The marines bring in the sales. Assualt cannons are overated. 24 range? Only good if you can get them that close. Landspeeders?? armour 10, bolt guns and anything else str 4 or above can mash them up. usually I have seen dred, Baal etc with assualt cannons just blown up straight away before thy can get close.

Posted By beef on 07/17/2006 3:14 PM
I disagree most people in the hobbey prefer the marines due top the fluff and the fact all the kids want to be superhuman soldiers in space, they dont want to be some pointy eared fairy or some frog looking mudskipper thing. People get into the hobby through the marines. The marines bring in the sales. Assualt cannons are overated. 24 range? Only good if you can get them that close. Landspeeders?? armour 10, bolt guns and anything else str 4 or above can mash them up. usually I have seen dred, Baal etc with assualt cannons just blown up straight away before thy can get close.

B..e..e..f, its whats for dinner.  Sorry

 

Actually we're in agreement to a great extent.  Many players play marines because of the fluff, because they are inexpensive relatively speaking, and because they are easy to paint yet offer a plethora of conversion opportunities for the more advanced player. 

But thats why they don't need to be over balanced. Its also a reason I'm supportive of one list that absolutely mauls power army lists (eldar generally).  AC's are not perfection, they're just no-brainers now which make them boring (as the starcannon has been rightfully accused of). As an aside if they're losing their Baals that quickly they're not playing properly.

 

 

 

 

Actually we're in agreement to a great extent. Many players play marines because of the fluff, because they are inexpensive relatively speaking, and because they are easy to paint yet offer a plethora of conversion opportunities for the more advanced player.

Yes I agree with you there. It does also depend how people play. I definatly agree that before the AC starcannons on sqauds of war walkers were the main gripe. Ac are a no brainer and will be accused of being unbalanced untill something new comes up. I play SW and when they first came out in 3rd edition they were accused of being beardy. But then Tau were released etc etc. I read arlier yakface said basic marines should be increased to 18 pnts. that would make no difference to me as grey hunters are already 18points.

Yes I agree with you there. It does also depend how people play. I definatly agree that before the AC starcannons on sqauds of war walkers were the main gripe. Ac are a no brainer and will be accused of being unbalanced untill something new comes up. I play SW and when they first came out in 3rd edition they were accused of being beardy. But then Tau were released etc etc. I read arlier yakface said basic marines should be increased to 18 pnts. that would make no difference to me as grey hunters are already 18points.

Actually in 3rd Space Wolves earned that claim thanks to the combination of the Rhino Rush and Blood Claws with invisible power fists (nobody else had them until the armageddon codex came out later). The 4th edition rules set did tone them down a bit (mostly by killing the rhino rush).

I believe that what Yak is saying is that basic marines go up to 18 pts, and everybody else gets increased a similiar amount (except maybe thousand sons).

Posted By beef on 07/17/2006 3:14 PM
I disagree most people in the hobbey prefer the marines due top the fluff and the fact all the kids want to be superhuman soldiers in space, they dont want to be some pointy eared fairy or some frog looking mudskipper thing. People get into the hobby through the marines. The marines bring in the sales. Assualt cannons are overated. 24 range? Only good if you can get them that close. Landspeeders?? armour 10, bolt guns and anything else str 4 or above can mash them up. usually I have seen dred, Baal etc with assualt cannons just blown up straight away before thy can get close.

Only 24" Range.  Don't mind the fact that the 3 things that can take assault cannons in a codex army, Terminators, Dreads, and Landspeeders, all three can deep strike.  2 of them (Dreads and Terminators) can ALWAYS deepstrike due to their special rules and drop pods.  Landspeeders can move 12" and fire the assault cannon making it effective 36" Range.  In fact, so can Terminators and Dreads, which makes their Assault Cannons 30" Effective Range.

The fact of the matter is that Marines are too powerful in their new codex and as the other codex's are "fixed" (Eldar, and eventually Chaos) they will probably be the most powerful army in the game by a fair margin. 

I play marines, I actually really like the army and the models, but it's amazing how you have to work at not making an overbearing list when you try to come up with something effective yet fun to play.

oK HOW MANY TIMES HAv`e you seen poeple try and deppstrike and the things deepstriking dont turn up when they want them to?? whats an overbearng lis?? lots of AC's?? If you can take them then take them and stop complaining. the worst is when a marine player says "to be balanced I try not to take AC's"?? what the F@£k as for landspeeders yes they can make the range 36 but then they get shot up. deep striking is a 50-50 affair, either it works really well or it does not. If you can use loads of AC's then by all meens use them. Dont try and be a martyr and not take them out of fairness. I personally dont use them. wHEN THE CODEX CAME OUT I WAS TEMpted to do a 1500 point army with 9 ac lanspeeders and 3 ac dreds but after painting the 3rd land speeder i got bored and realised my army looked crap (not my painting but the make up of it) as playing SW i like a really expensive charactor with a hardcore assualt unit and this new 1500 pointlist was shooty and thats not my style of play so I scraped that idea.

From 2nd to 3rd edition, the cost of a basic Marine dropped from 30 points to just 15. By contrast, a Guardsman went from 10 points to 6 points. A 15-point decrease for the Marine, which is now worth only half its value, and a 4-point reduction for the Guardsman. Yep, Marines are the glory boys. They're too good, underpriced, and too many people play them, mainly because of the fluff. But that's just how it is and that's what GW needs to bring in new kiddies to the hobby. So the bottom line is, don't complain that they're too good. Instead, be just that much more satisfied in games where you beat them.

Totally agree with Hawkes. He has hit the nail on the head

Its probably been mentioned, but I'd look to the Black Templar codex to see the direction of Space Marines.  If the upcoming Dexes follow suit, basic marines might end up +1 point, and things will be overall toned down.  Generic marines will then get the same treatment in V5 when they re-release the Space Marine codex for the 74th time...

I mean, really, to simulate making a points change, next game take 1450 points rather than 1500.  That would be roughly a +1 point increase for every marine model.  Would it make them unuseable?  Unlikely.

I play Flesh Tearers using the Blood Angels rules, so I'm used to the cries of cheese and the complaining even before I set up my army (no naked vets, 8-man+ squads (only one scout), 1 speeder, maybe an assault cannon on a dread).  I avoid all the classic 'broken' parts of the list.  I still win way more than I lose (maybe its the DC and Furious Charge

Bottom line, I expect to see more of the BT treatment going forward.  They're going to 'tone down' the sub-lists, guaranteed, especially the Blood Angels.