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In Kill Team banners and weapons are not counted for TLOS. I hope they carry that over to 40k in the next Chapter Approved.

While I don't hate back banners, the extra height has always made the models a bit harder to transport in smaller foam trays (that's not even getting into the risk of them breaking off, pinned or not). That and my freehand skills basically don't exist. As such I've stuck with leaving them off.

More recently though I've started getting into the use of decals which will be used on my banners proper, but I'm not in a hurry to do back banners right now.

Now you mention it, I really miss them. When did they get phased out fully? I think it might have been around 5th edition, which is where the grimdarkness was overplayed and the irony of the setting sort of got forgotten. 3rd edition most certainly had fewer banners flying around.

2nd edition was full of them, and they were glorious! Back than my painting skills were crap, so I could never do them justice sadly. However it was great seeing them on other people's models.

What we see now are the occasional sculpted banner, and it takes away from the freedom of personalising the models.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

The Newman wrote:
True LoS is and always has been an incredibly dumb rule.

I've never seen anyone enforce this rule at all.

You've never seen someone enforce the basic rules of the game that have been that way since (at least) 2nd ed?

Lets not forget early 40K was basically built around close combat heavy and generally being similar to older world battles with swords, spears and such; just with techno weapons and power armour and aliens.

Today I think the heavier effect of shooting has shifted the view away from that to a more gun-powder age of wargaming where ranged weapons are more dominant for the most part.

It's a design and visual change that has led to the toning down of some things like banners; even though they are still present here and there (the knights still have banners)

The Newman wrote:

barnacle111 wrote:
Love banners, have many, but really frustrating that it just makes them easier to kill.... oh I can see the end of your long wavey cloth banner, I can therefore kill you. House rules help, but it still is silly.

True LoS is and always has been an incredibly dumb rule.

8th edition was THIIIIS CLOOOSE to having nice, abstracted, fair rules for everything, games workshop almost universally accepted that close combat attacks shouldn't come out of little modeled weapons and bullets shouldnt come out of little modeled gun barrels, but then the one tau player in the design team went ahead and left gun targeting with the subjective, douchey rule it now has. Combined with all the abstracted systems left 8th ed with the single worst case of "oh, it looks like I can just see your model's antenna over the building, I can shoot everything at you!" that any edition of 40k has ever had.

the_scotsman wrote:

The Newman wrote:

barnacle111 wrote:
Love banners, have many, but really frustrating that it just makes them easier to kill.... oh I can see the end of your long wavey cloth banner, I can therefore kill you. House rules help, but it still is silly.

True LoS is and always has been an incredibly dumb rule.

8th edition was THIIIIS CLOOOSE to having nice, abstracted, fair rules for everything, games workshop almost universally accepted that close combat attacks shouldn't come out of little modeled weapons and bullets shouldnt come out of little modeled gun barrels, but then the one tau player in the design team went ahead and left gun targeting with the subjective, douchey rule it now has. Combined with all the abstracted systems left 8th ed with the single worst case of "oh, it looks like I can just see your model's antenna over the building, I can shoot everything at you!" that any edition of 40k has ever had.

I have a feeling it was more likely left in because the playtesters liked it.

That said, 5th edition didn't count backbanners, weapons or a whole slew of other things for TLOS purpose (so what if you can shoot the antenna off my Baneblade, the rest of the tank is still going to murderlate you dead), and even if we don't move to more abstract targeting rules (such as being able to draw a line between the firing unit and the targetting unit with no terrain in between) I want that back because it keeps the cheese down and lets models be cool for coolness' sake.

not a fan of banners at all. i've recently started to revisit my old 3rd edition Dark Angels and all the banners are getting chopped as i go. all the way from azreal to my lowliest sergeant

the_scotsman wrote:

The Newman wrote:

barnacle111 wrote:
Love banners, have many, but really frustrating that it just makes them easier to kill.... oh I can see the end of your long wavey cloth banner, I can therefore kill you. House rules help, but it still is silly.

True LoS is and always has been an incredibly dumb rule.

8th edition was THIIIIS CLOOOSE to having nice, abstracted, fair rules for everything, games workshop almost universally accepted that close combat attacks shouldn't come out of little modeled weapons and bullets shouldnt come out of little modeled gun barrels, but then the one tau player in the design team went ahead and left gun targeting with the subjective, douchey rule it now has. Combined with all the abstracted systems left 8th ed with the single worst case of "oh, it looks like I can just see your model's antenna over the building, I can shoot everything at you!" that any edition of 40k has ever had.

As much as it might not make logical sense it's a smart move for GW to use TLOS. You can see it, you can shoot it. No ambiguity for players to argue over. Stops them needing to clearly define where on each model is a valid target, etc. This is a game that pits players against one another. If it was like DnD then the rules could be more open for interpretation and decided at the discretion of the DM. If they're not defined in a game like 40k it just becomes like kids playing in a playground with one kid throwing a tantrum because he decided he won and the other kid decided he's immune to whatever the other kid came up with.

In my group we're usually still using the old way of "main body is important for line of sight, nothing else", which is also supported in the designers commentary I think. No idea why they didn't make it a proper errata FaQ.

Used to use them when I first started, but they would snap off. With the changes to TLOS including banners, wings, and weapons now (also more importantly I don't really play armies that have the option to really use banners outside of actual banner bearers) I'm probably never going to use them again.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
In my group we're usually still using the old way of "main body is important for line of sight, nothing else", which is also supported in the designers commentary I think. No idea why they didn't make it a proper errata FaQ.

I've always played that weapons don't count, banners, extravagant haircuts, etc don't either. Only proper body parts, at least the size of a head (so no shooting the pointy finger off an unfortunate Devastator sergeant).

I love the banners! When I was putting my Battle Company together, I put back banners on most of my Tac squad sergeants. Just adds a bit of character to the models. I love the nice sculpted ones, like the Dark Angels one you get in the Company Veterans box.

I like the banners. Moving them is difficult so I would drill a hole in the back and not glue the banner pole in place. That way is was easier to transport. As far as the rules go line of site should be for the majority of the model visible. However If a banner is visible indirect fire should get a bonus to hit the target. If you run around waving a flag you are trying to get peoples attention eventually you should get it. Remember the first rule of camouflage is not to be seen.

I like banners especially the original ones with the sticker flags, i was never that good at doing fancy pics though so just used the stickers, ive still got a few banner packs and stickers kicking around i intend on using one day.

If you like banner art or any free hand armour art check this guy out, his work is outstanding!

https://www.facebook.com/jonaswideenminiatures/?fb_dtsg_ag=AdxRwCsSQq27QwQe0TPO51n5RHWXBAnKkGwoR_J3Xjv3RQ%3AAdwaPVszal2vQpKulzIVG1Sg_G54cKsO98BH1S2_UU1Nkw

The codices also used to have a load of bannersyou could cut out (ack!) or photocopy, and many included black/white outlined banners so you can photocopy them and paint your own colours in, etc.

Back in 2nd at least, the Dark Angels had three standards which had different impacts in-game. All three were provided in the codex at the right scale to clip or copy. Not sure how long those rules lasted.

All we need is the rule back that says "banners, wings, long barrel guns etc don't count as the mini. You need to see head, arms, body or legs."

It does seem modelling for advantage is now in for 8th edition. I hate this rule so much I never played a game yet with varuous other issues.

 Elbows wrote:
I think it's worth remembering the "style" of the early days of 40K art. It's dropped off a bit, but this was how things were pictured.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Great, now I want sashimonos for my fire dragons.

I love banners, I don’t quite like the icons but I suppose they serve the same purpose

I recently painted this and found a ziplock bag of banners and transfers I have packed away

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

The Newman wrote:
True LoS is and always has been an incredibly dumb rule.

I've never seen anyone enforce this rule at all.

You've never seen someone enforce the basic rules of the game that have been that way since (at least) 2nd ed?

TLOS has NOT been standard since 2nd ed...That game around was it 4th or 5th and even then at the start it wasn't as literal as it is now.

 Rybrook wrote:
I love banners, I don’t quite like the icons but I suppose they serve the same purpose

I recently painted this and found a ziplock bag of banners and transfers I have packed away

Classic man in a box.
Love it!

 Mmmpi wrote:

Great, now I want sashimonos for my fire dragons.

The Dire Avenger Exarch comes with one standard out of the current box. It's a standalone part that can be attached to the aspect armor pack.

Could probably find them pretty easily on the secondary market.

Alternatively the Kabalite Sybarite has a similar one that could be converted pretty readily (it slots into a recess on the small of the back on the sybarite torso but a smidge of greenstuff would make short work of that for any aspect warrior).

All of my Space Marine heroes and sergeants have back banners where possible. In addition to intimidating the fearful xenos they also provide a convenient place to write my characters' names.

 Elbows wrote:

Spoiler:

I can't for the life of me figure out what the Fire Dragon at the bottom is trying to do. What sort of gun even fires like that?

From a modelling perspective - they're highly incovenient for storage as they're a tiny, tiny piece of plastic that easily breaks and makes putting a number a normal space marine into a normal sized slot in a case very difficult.

From a painting perspective, it means a lot of freehanding and designing of banners and also decided who is important enough for a banner and why. Its great if you are into lorebuilding but most people these days appear to be purely competitve.

From a fluff POV, as mentioned, most characters such as, ie, Draigo, canonically have the banners but it only serves to mark out leaders for assassins.

 Elemental wrote:

 Elbows wrote:

Spoiler:

I can't for the life of me figure out what the Fire Dragon at the bottom is trying to do. What sort of gun even fires like that?

Pretty sure its supposed to be a fire pike, the upgraded version of a fusion gun. But that guy clearly is an adherent to the whole "guns must be held sideways" school of marksmanship.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Elemental wrote:

 Elbows wrote:

Spoiler:

I can't for the life of me figure out what the Fire Dragon at the bottom is trying to do. What sort of gun even fires like that?

Pretty sure its supposed to be a fire pike, the upgraded version of a fusion gun. But that guy clearly is an adherent to the whole "guns must be held sideways" school of marksmanship.

That is the 80's for you.

*edit*

Is that an Orruk Kaptin there in red? I totally forgot about Orks in armour like that.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

The Newman wrote:
True LoS is and always has been an incredibly dumb rule.

I've never seen anyone enforce this rule at all.

You've never seen someone enforce the basic rules of the game that have been that way since (at least) 2nd ed?

I've never played in a meta that didn't.

Davor wrote:

Is that an Orruk Kaptin there in red? I totally forgot about Orks in armour like that.

A Warboss (probably; could just be a Nob, but he's right in the middle of the frame) in power armour. And yes, the firepike is held, as the name suggests, like a polearm. A little odd, but no moreso than the Scorpion Exarch's unwieldy arm-mounted chainsword.

I'm generally not a fan, they can work occasionally for themed guard armies or the like, but having read through this topic and looked at the pics shown I don't think I've seen a single one I like. Even if one or two do hold a bit of nostalgic charm.