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 John Prins wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Video games still have print copies?

True enough! However, most PvP video games don't have much competition several years after release, and those that do have die-hard maxed out players who will stomp you repeatedly..

To be fair, the latest crop of PvP games in the Battle Royale genre are only selling cosmetics, not in-game aids and benefits.

Devs have learned that the only F2P system that works in the long run if you want to have a big playerbase is the LOL one. 100% free game, only sell cosmetics.

P2W games are only popular in mobiles, and in asian or eastern europe contries.
Popular games like World of Tanks, when changed from a more F2P friendly mode to a more P2W mode saw gigantic drops in popularity and their player bases.

Take all the video game talk to the video game section of the board please. This is the Wargaming section.

I prefer a smaller rulebook in my starter. If the game is good enough, I get the hard back and give the smaller one to my skumgrod so we can play.

I also dislike Starter Sets that don't give you enough to really play the game very well and get a feel for the actual game play. Thankfully, most of those don't really exist anymore.

I do also like a bit of terrain, since if it is a true starter; it is for people who do not really wargame. They won't have stuff to use as terrain.

 Easy E wrote:
Take all the video game talk to the video game section of the board please. This is the Wargaming section.

I prefer a smaller rulebook in my starter. If the game is good enough, I get the hard back and give the smaller one to my skumgrod so we can play.

I also dislike Starter Sets that don't give you enough to really play the game very well and get a feel for the actual game play. Thankfully, most of those don't really exist anymore.

I do also like a bit of terrain, since if it is a true starter; it is for people who do not really wargame. They won't have stuff to use as terrain.

Video game talk is incredibly relevant when you're talking about "The Perfect Starter Set", which would naturally be competing for the consumers dollar versus other gaming purchases. You can't really say "The Perfect Starter Set" should cost roughly what a video game costs if you can't talk about what video games offer.

 Easy E wrote:
Take all the video game talk to the video game section of the board please. This is the Wargaming section.

I prefer a smaller rulebook in my starter. If the game is good enough, I get the hard back and give the smaller one to my skumgrod so we can play.

I also dislike Starter Sets that don't give you enough to really play the game very well and get a feel for the actual game play. Thankfully, most of those don't really exist anymore.

I do also like a bit of terrain, since if it is a true starter; it is for people who do not really wargame. They won't have stuff to use as terrain.

Actually, it's General Discussion, so starting video games (w/o DLC) vs tabletop starter is a valid discussion area; only it were purely video games would it go to video games.

I like a "rules complete" rulebook in the starter, where the "full" rulebook simply adds dedicated background, scenarios, campaign, and other stuff.

The power of plastic allows for fuller starters. Or the game is really small scale skirmish.

I like how GW uses the box as a terrain piece, and they bundle a fold-out map - really clever!

I suppose my perfect starter set:

Priced $50-$60 USD Maximum.

Would contain enough models to get a good feel for the game.

Contains a single faction, keeping costs down and allowing me to simply pick up the faction I find most appealing.

Includes full rules for the game and included faction.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
One thing you forgot is cost. Starter sets should be relatively cheap, especially as compared to other games a new player might buy.

You mentioned Battle for Skull Pass. That box was $60. It was just a bit more expensive than a video game. Now, the equivalent starter for AoS is $160. Demoing the game and then asking a potential player to spend $60 was fairly easy. Demoing the game and then asking someone to drop $160 is a lot harder.

In fairness, $160 is a lot closer for a videogame now counting season passes, loot boxes, and DLC.

But DLC avoids the sticker shock; if you hook someone on a table top game they'll spend a fortune, but you need to convince their mum to spend the $ in the first place. $60 is a no brainer, $160 takes a lot of convincing.

That Skull pass starter set was amazing - it was my first "real" hobby purchase and I got it for $45 on Ebay (it included a stagger amount of minis for that much money - even if the Dwarves in the set were a little meh). It took me months to paint it all but I was super proud once I got it all done.

Warhammer 6th, Skull Pass and Island of Blood all had the whole "contained forces" thing going for them. Had Ravening Hordes style books came in each of those boxes they would have been perfect.

40K 3rd and MaCragge lose out because of the lack of HQ, but gain in the way of very usable terrain. Also 3rd had the army lists built into the core book.

Model wise I'd like the Starter Sets to come with a "legal" force for whatever system they represent. I realize that army building is drastically different now, but you know what I mean. Smaller rule book or simple soft cover with lists built in. Codices/Army Books can come later, and be optional. Each box should aim to be less than a Getting Started set. Then you have the perfect mix.

Starter sets for larger scale games like AoS and 40k can certainly be tricky. It's probably better to include the actual rulebook and sufficient minis to, as close as possible, approximate the intended play experience than to include some token terrain. Skimrish games are probably a bit easier, especially if they are more likely to be profitable loss leaders. In this vein, the Kill Team starter set is truly amazing.

Get rid of starters with 2 armies in them.

ValentineGames wrote:
Get rid of starters with 2 armies in them.

They kind of did do that - the (hugely popular and successful) Start Collecting range is basically a faction starter box. It even comes with the rules for the units.


I think Dark Imperium and Soul Wars are pretty damn good as starter sets. All the rules, 2 reasonable armies and great presentation.

The frustration is that the 2 armies are not equal in points... I struggle to understand why they don't try very hard to make the forces you get in a box equal in strength. Is it an upsell tactic, or just the result of how the sprues are laid out? Hard to know.

If they slapped a rules flyer and printed the data sheets separate from the model assembly guide (something kind of like the Deathguard/Primaris booklets from the big boxed set - maybe have pics of the other units as a sort of “catalogue” to entice more sales...), the Start Collecting sets would be just about perfect.

The SC boxes are based more on $$$ value than points. If they tried to do it on points, the IG set would be ridiculously stuffed.

Battle For Skull Pass was the perfect starter. Cheap and a ton of minis. Island of Blood was also really good; comparable points, a few less models, but even better quality. Both were GWs best starters, as far as I’m concerned. Actually, the 6th, 7th and 8th edition fantasy starters were all pretty great.

I just got to give a shout out to the 6th edition Box set. I basically built my Empire and Orc and Goblin army off multiple lots of that set I had gotten off Ebay.

I was very impressed with the bolt action 2ed starter. Full rules, scenarios, army lists, decent amount of minis, a nice terrain piece, etc...

I've added a lot to my BA collection of rules and minis since, but it really does offer a full game out of the box, which I appreciated.

Actually I have always been pretty impressed with the starters for each edition of Fantasy. Even back to the days of cardstock buildings.

I actually think the best Edition Starter of 40K was the 3rd edition one, as while the Dark Eldar half was pretty bland, it had the entire "get you by until codexes come out" force lists for each army and it contained terrain, too.

The Suicide Squad starter set for Knight Models' Batman Miniatures Game was pretty cool. Two nice yardstick buildings, rule book and models/figures for two small forces (Suicide Squad and Joker gang and a Batman).

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Battle For Skull Pass was the perfect starter. Cheap and a ton of minis. Island of Blood was also really good; comparable points, a few less models, but even better quality. Both were GWs best starters, as far as I’m concerned. Actually, the 6th, 7th and 8th edition fantasy starters were all pretty great.

Skull Pass was very good, the way you had introductory scenarios focussed on learning how to move models, then bringing ranged combat and stuff in gradually, plus enough rules to use everything in the box was good.

Island of Blood was terrible, no introductory stuff to help you learn the rules, the expectation you would immediately go out and buy both army books to actually be able to play it (yes they did a quick reference sheet to download, as an afterthought, it wasn't in the box), had they taken the approach of Skull Pass with the text that came with the excellent models it would have been a corker.

It smacked less of a starter for the game and more a starter to the addiction. Didn't help that one army wasn't even game legal as supplied

Since I was gushing about starter sets in the other thread, I thought I'd share some of my favorite starter sets:

Infinity - Operation: Icestorm - My gold standard for starter sets, it includes two substantial forces of cool models, some cardboard scenery that isn't just there for looks, dice and templates, and a rulebook that acts as a subtle tutorial that walks you through learning the game. They later added Beyond Icestorm which brings the armies up to full points and you can download a rules packet that walks you through the parts of the game not already covered. One of the rare examples of a starter set that parlays directly into a complete game.

Runewars Miniatures Game - I think RWMG is perfectly playable with the four units you get in the box. It gives you a representative sample of the game, with heroes, ranged, cavalry, and infantry - but, you can build up to a full army by just buying two core sets. I got it at a discount, so I got two full RMG armies for $100 and felt like it was well worth it. Even at one box, I think you can get a lot of mileage out of it. Legion is similar, but I don't think it is as representative of the game at smaller point values (Legion requires more units for the initiative system, needs more terrain and those barricades ain't doing it).

Kill Team - Generally speaking, most of the GW starter sets lack something. Necromunda lacks the campaign and 3D terrain rules from the first Gang War. Age of Sigmar/40k include the big rule books and lots of models, but lack the tutorial and scenarios that their smaller, cheaper starters have. The Kill Team set, however, has pretty much everything you need to play a full game. Yeah, the GSC models have fewer than 100 pts, but it almost seems petty to complain about having to play 75 pt games when it may be an even better starter than Infinity's.

Warmachine Battle Boxes - Think the battle boxes are a good value. A warcaster and some jacks, plus a full digest-sized rulebook. Two battle boxes will give you a representative game at the price of a regular starter set, only you get to choose the factions. The restic models are a pain in the ass to work with, and good luck getting WMH players to play BB games with you, but for two players starting WMH in a vacuum, it is a great start.

Now, the worst starter sets:

Malifaux 2E - Two Player Starter Set - Contains 8 generic models that have precisely none of the character or charm that the rest of the line has. Doesn't even include the full rules (you get a code that you can enter on the website to unlock a parred down version of the rulebook from DriveThruRPG, but it contains no lore or unit stats). I don't think that it provides a representative version of the game, and what's there is hardly interesting or fun.

Wrath of Kings: Honor and Treachery - It has enough models, but doesn't include any rules. It has a single sheet of paper with a very limited version of the rules on it. One of the worst sins a starter set can commit is lacking rules and having too few models. This one also came out after the game was effectively already dead.

X-Wing - WAY too few models. I'm not sure that the starter set has even two games worth of content in it. You'll get more mileage out of a second core set, but not enough.

Walking Dead: All Out War - Solo Starter Set - Has ONE scenario and can not be expanded upon because it lacks the full rule set (doesn't have rules for splitting combat, for example). Basically, you can't go from the solo starter to the game without getting the normal starter box. The normal starter is mostly okay (especially the collector's edition), except that it also only has ONE scenario. It is basically incomplete without also getting the Days Gone Bye expansion, which includes a narrative campaign based on the comic's story.

Deadzone 2nd Edition - The first edition of Deadzone came with tons of terrain, but the 2nd barely has any. It comes with enough models and a full rulebook, but I don't think the game would be very fun or interesting with only two or three barricades. Personally, I paired it with the terrain from the 1st edition box and it worked out pretty well. But for a game that is built on this 3D cube movement system, it is pretty weird to not have any 3D cubes worth of terrain.

A comparison to board games is also valid. You get a game in a box - which is I think why people want scenarios and army-building in the box because that's part of the game.

The full rulebook
Two playable forces of equal points value
Custom dice
Price Tag of $100 or less.

I'd like the models to be easy to build.
HQ + 2 Troop Choices + another choice.
The tray inside the box being printed terrain is a nice touch.

I love starter sets. I like starter sets that include two complete forces of roughly equal cost and ability, that can be easily expanded into full forces/armies. My ideal starter has a complete rulebook/pamphlet (minus the fluff, background, army lists for other armies is fine) with a set of tutorial scenarios to show players the ropes.

Some starters that have really stuck out to me in the past:
Battle for Skull Pass (My buddy and I played the heck out of this when we were poor college students)

The New KT Starter (It could include enough points for GSC, but other that that it is perfect....it even has enough terrain and the gameboard....though a bit of scatter adds something).

infinity Operation Icestorm (The intro system in this game was amazing, it had great models, was reasonably priced, and it gave you a battlefield to play on.....I just don't have the time to keep up with Infinity since the rules are very complex and I only get to game about once every 4-6 weeks.....great game though).

I want faction starters for LotR.
Gondor: 12 warriors of gondor + 12 rangers + 6 knights + plastic captain, standard, musician + The simple terrain kits we use to have + basic rules and unit stats + 6 dice all for = £50

Mordor: 12 orcs + 12 morannon orcs + 6 warg riders + plastic captain, standard, musician + The simple terrain kits we use to have + basic rules and unit stats all for = £50

Rohan: 24 warriors + 6 riders + plastic captain, standard, musician + The simple terrain kits we use to have + basic rules and unit stats all for = £50

Armies of the east: 12 Easterlings + 12 Haradrim + 6 cavalry of either faction + plastic captain, standard, musician + The simple terrain kits we use to have + basic rules and unit stats + 6 dice all for = £50

Etc etc etc etc

They could add the 8 page rules screen and some dataslates to the battleforce boxes and that would make mono force starter boxes out of them

They have been mentioned, but I will second Operation: Ice Storm and the Suicide Squad starters.

It appears the Suicide Squad starter is no longer available? I wasn't a fan of the movie-based models, but it did seem like a much better introduction to the BMG than the current offerings...

 Sqorgar wrote:
It appears the Suicide Squad starter is no longer available? I wasn't a fan of the movie-based models, but it did seem like a much better introduction to the BMG than the current offerings...

It got dropped September last year with the new edition change. That said, the new Bat-Boxes are great value for what they are. One player starter, but they come with a quick start rulebook (and the full rules are free anyway) and a full sized and fully competitive crew to start playing. Someone can realistically just learn what their models do, grab a set of objectives and rock up to a tournament with a good chance of success. The Riddler and Joker sets also have a Leader, Sidekick and Henchmen all included, so give almost the full spread of models and their interactions in a starter experience, with the models having divided rules between quick start and regular, so you can gradually pick up rules as you play more.

If I'm not wrong, there's only three bat boxes right now? Riddler, Joker, and Suicide Squad, right? No Batman? Seems like a pretty big oversight.

 Sqorgar wrote:
If I'm not wrong, there's only three bat boxes right now? Riddler, Joker, and Suicide Squad, right? No Batman? Seems like a pretty big oversight.

They can't release everything at once. Batman wasn't in the general release of the original SS box either, and they did release a big new Batman model this month too. Yes a Batman box would be good, but there are also now currently 6 different versions of Batman on their webstore, with the heroes having huge selection to tailor their purchases instead of the more limited boxes