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It is mostly exposure.

Sure, you might've planned well. Checked the weather, worn appropriate clothes. But even in a Forest, in England, you can find very swampy ground. Tread in that, and your feet are cold and wet. And as an experienced camper (ever since I was born - Mum and Dad were involved in Scouting), nothing is so miserable as cold, wet, feet, boots covered in cloying mud.

You may have a warm coat on, but that doesn't mean it's waterproof. Slip or fall into even a smallish puddle, and you'll know all about it.

And in the UK, we've got a lot of wilderness. It may not look it, but it's there. Near me you've got Dene Park. Then there's Dartmoor (just....don't. Ever. Nothing to see), the New Forest, Nottingham Forest (no, not that one. That's the football team), not to mention The Lake District, Snowdonia and, well, pretty much all of Scotland north of the population belt. And even quite a lot within the population belt.

If you're in the US and have planned, you may even take a satellite phone. In the UK? Who'd think of doing that, and not think it overkill?

How many people planning a hike think to take spare socks and underwear etc. Yet believe me, you'd be glad you did should you need it. Same with jumpers and trousers. Take. Spares. Put them in a waterproof bag within your rucksack. Bring firelighters with you, a reliable lighter and perhaps even kindling. Don't need much, just enough to get the fire going. Sure, building a fire is usually frowned upon. But if you do get stuck, sod the rules, you're trying not to die.

I know this sounds overly dramatic, but it's just sensible precautions.

And like if you're a teenage girl. Don't leave home without telling someone where you're going, your planned route (leave them a clear copy of the same map you're using, suitably annotated) and at least a time estimate for your return. It's tragic that we need to protect teenage lasses in that way, but when it comes to hiking and rambling, it makes sense.

If there's a group of you, you can even take flags and stuff - so should you need to alter your route, you can leave a clearly visible marker, with your new route in a sealed poly bag on it. Then, should you need to be found, people know roughly where to look. It may only be narrowing it down to a few hectares, but that's still better than the full 95 of Dene Park!

And always, always take water with you, and water purification tablets. Pack stuff like Kendall Mintcake. Not to scoff as a matter of principle, but in case you find yourself stranded. It'll provide enough energy to keep you going.

And learn the signs of hypothermia, and what to do about it.

Seriously folks. No bears, no wolves, nothing with particularly big or particularly pointy teeth in the UK wildlife (barring Adders). But the great outdoors is lethal enough without proper planning.

This slightly paranoid rant has been brought to you by Grotsnik Industries.

Grotsnik Industries. Because dying on a hill for lack of planning is a stupid way to go. And the emergency services have better things to do than play 'hunt the idiot'


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Finally? Use. A. Proper. Map. Ordnance Survey ones are ideal, as they show a poop load of info. Yes, even if you've got fancy shmancy 4G iPad like wot I've got. Because The Great Outdoors won't necessarily know what 4G is. Assume you won't get a signal, rather than hope you will.

And learn how to read the map. If the weather gets bored and decides to act up (this is Britain. This is our reality), know where the Map might suggest you can find shelter.

If you get seriously lost, go up a hill - any hill - and use the vantage gained to make at least a reasonable guess, based on what the Map shows should be around you, as to where you are. And look for electric lights whilst you're up there. Even if you can't exactly pin point your location, you can take the compass bearing of the lights, and set off in that direction. Try to go in as straight a line as you can manage, terrain allowing. If you're worried you got turned around, rinse and repeat the hill trick.

I think the key thing is when people shift from "going for a walk" to "going for a hike" and about how they draw that dividing line between the two.

Most people who think of going for a walk wouldn't probably take or do anything special, but then again they would mostly expect to stick to the pathways and signed footpaths (of which the UK has many).

I think the issue comes when walkers shift into going for a hike where they might be going off the pathways (or where there are no pathways) or heading into less tourist heavy hilly or wooded ground. Ergo areas where the path might not be maintained or even when it is it might have very steep parts, worn areas, recent rain might make it muddy, wet and sticky/slippery etc...
When that shift happens, but the person still treats it like a walk that's when many issues arise as they are not taking prepared gear with them.


Maps, compass, water purification tablets etc... just don't factor into their thinking at all. They are both ignorant and inexperienced. Plus its the UK so we don't get public service reminders about hiking safely or such as much as some other countries might (I would expect countries and regions with things like bears, wolves, etc... to have at least a general increase in public awareness and information on the subject even just to act as a reminder prompt).



I think also it can do with how people treat the natural world. For many the natural world isn't just an escape, but its advertised and marketed to them as an escape from "reality" a safe place to wander away from the stresses and strains of city and modern life. Ergo a lot of the marketing built up around it suggests its safe, easy, simple, nice, fun and low risk. And for the vast majority it is just that; however its no no-risk and much of the safety is about preparation beforehand, but that isn't put into marketing, so people wind up with a very artificial view - esp if most of their experiences are from town parks and foothpaths on RSPB reserves and the like.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
IBring firelighters with you, a reliable lighter and perhaps even kindling. Don't need much, just enough to get the fire going. Sure, building a fire is usually frowned upon. But if you do get stuck, sod the rules, you're trying not to die.

Sanctimonious bugger shows up telling you to put your fire out -> rescue!

There was a story I read about where a couple went hiking in Texas with zero supplies, into some hill/valley range, and they went into the bowl and couldn't find a way out. They came across a dead camper who had hiked in there himself and couldn't find a way out, and died in his camp from the elements and maybe starvation I don't know. But when the couple saw his maps and his notes they felt they were screwed. At some point they tried to make a fire with whatever tools the camper had, and the fire ended up raging out of control and started burning up the valley. This brought the attention to some rescue/fire spotter in a helicopter than came and found them.

So lucky for them they came across the dead camper.

Wasn't there a vaguely famous MMA fighter who went hiking alone to some place with an aquatic sounding name - not realizing it was just barren desert, laid down and died in the last year or two?

Edit: 2008...how time flies.

Some people expressed concern about Tanner's wellbeing going into the desert alone. Tanner responded to concerns about his plans for a desert adventure in a post on August 27, 2008.

"It seems some MMA (Mixed Martial Arts) websites have reported on the story, posting up that I might die out in the desert, or that it might be my greatest opponent yet, etc. Come on, guys. It's really common down in Southern California to go out to the off-road recreation areas in the desert about an hour away from LA and San Diego. "So my plan is to go out to the desert, do some camping, ride the motorcycle, and shoot some guns. Sounds like a lot of fun to me. A lot of people do it. This isn't a version of 'Into the Wild.'"[10]

Tanner had recently purchased a dirt bike, and on September 3, 2008 he rode into the desert region west of Palo Verde, California to go camping.[11] According to Tanner's manager John Hayner, Tanner called that afternoon to say that his bike had run out of gas, and that he would accordingly walk back to his camp; this conflicted with the military report that Tanner's bike was found at camp.[11] Temperatures that day reached 118 °F (48 °C), and friends became concerned and reported Tanner missing after he failed to contact them.[11] His body was discovered by a Marine helicopter on September 8, 2008.

The Imperial County coroner determined Tanner's time of death to be sometime between late September 4 and early September 5, but the legal date of death was recorded as September 8, 2008. Tanner's body was found near Clapp Spring with empty water bottles. Tanner had reportedly intended to refill his bottles at the spring before heading back to the provisions at his campsite, but the spring was unexpectedly dry, and Tanner text messaged a friend informing him of this. However, Evan felt he could make it back to camp if he traveled during the later hours of the evening, refusing offers at that time to send help. Friends were told that if they had not heard from Evan by the next morning and could not reach him by 8 am, they then needed to contact Search and Rescue.

Rescuers found Evan at a spot where he stopped to rest. During that rest, he succumbed to the excessive heat, slipping over onto his side into the position that rescuers found him in. An empty water pouch was nearby. According to the military article that was posted, Evan's motorcycle was at his camp, and within his provisions were ample supplies of water.[12] The Imperial County sheriff's office official cause of death was cited as heat exposure.[11]

A celebration of life service was held in Amarillo, Texas, on September 27 at 2:00 p.m. at the Amarillo Civic Center. A less formal gathering was held at a close friend's house in Oceanside for those that were a part of Evan's life. It was attended by Evan's sister and those close to Evan, with sharing of stories and pictures of his life. At dusk, a candlelight vigil was held to honor their friend and loved one.

The UFC honored Tanner during the Spike TV broadcast of UFC Fight Night: Diaz vs. Neer on September 17, 2008. Pancrase paid tribute to Tanner with a special ceremony during their 15th Anniversary Show on October 1, 2008. Shark Fights also honored Tanner during their inaugural event at the Amarillo National Center on October 24, 2008.

The 2008 World MMA Awards, which took place on December 31, 2008 in Las Vegas, Nevada and aired on Versus, dedicated the show to Tanner's memory.

A documentary about Tanner's life, travels, and philosophy, titled "Once I Was A Champion" and directed by Gerard Roxburgh,[13] premiered in competition at the 2011 Los Angeles Film Festival as an official selection and was nominated for "Best Documentary Feature" [2]. The film was also an official selection at the 2011 Dallas Video Festival as well as the inaugural Arclight Documentary Film Festival in November 2011. It won the "Best Documentary Audience Award" at the 2011 Bel Air Film Festival.

English film director and producer Bobby Razak released a documentary about Tanner titled "1" in March 2014, studying the events behind Tanner's tragic death.

Damn...

 KTG17 wrote:

 ingtaer wrote:

Edit, Edit; For anyone thinking I was a little harsh I just had the pleasure of spending a few hours in the bush to drag a corpse out of some bloke who was too hardcore to need a beacon, I also had had the delight as team leader to tell his Mrs and three kids that daddy was so fething hardcore he ddint need a beacon and his corpse was rotting forty meters away from the fething track but its all good because he was fething hardcore.

If you don't mind me asking... where was this? Was this in a public park, or in the outback? I just got done reading up on the two Dutch girls who went missing in Panama

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-lost-girls-of-panama-the-camera-the-jungle-and-the-bones

But now they are thinking foul play may have been involved.

But there are some places in the US, like in Utah, where people have died within a relatively short distance from their cars, simply unprepared for the heat and not having enough water, and becoming disoriented. I imagine that happens a lot in the Outback.

I was hiking with my family in Zion’s and was shocked by a Chinese couple we met on our way out that was about a mile into the trail. They were pretty much exposed to the sun in 102 degree weather with half a can of Coke to see them through to delicate arch and back. This is a trip of a few miles in an area with little to no shade, so they were pretty much signing their own death warrants.
We took them back to our van and ranked them up with a few gallons of water and the means to comfortably carry it as well as giving them some sunscreen and advice about regular drinking even if they didn’t feel thirsty.

The mother in the article says the boys haven't slept in 24 hours. The article says they were at altitudes beyond what they normally experienced, and there was also the fact that they were jogging. And then the mother says it just doesn't make sense that he'll fall off a cliff like that. Fatigue, possible altitude sickness, possible disorientation from minor dehydration. Why would it not make sense for a jogger to slip/lose footing under those circumstances?

Note: Don't EVER go jogging without water in your backpack. a pint minimum is an absolute must. Even if you don't feel yourself sweating, you ARE. Your body kicks into energy burning mode when you exercise, and water evaporates through your skin and lungs at a faster rate than when resting. First signs of dehydration are dry mouth. Many people ignore this. Second sign is funny vision. Dizziness not very long after. You MUST grab some water at the point of dizziness, or accidents will inevitably happen.

Dyatlov Pass incident was a bit more than a 'failed expedition'...

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Dyatlov Pass incident was a bit more than a 'failed expedition'...

YESTERDAY in CNN news:

Russia reopens investigation into 60-year-old Dyatlov Pass mystery

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/02/04/europe/dyatlov-pass-incident-scli-intl/index.html

 Overread wrote:
I think the key thing is when people shift from "going for a walk" to "going for a hike" and about how they draw that dividing line between the two.

Most people who think of going for a walk wouldn't probably take or do anything special, but then again they would mostly expect to stick to the pathways and signed footpaths (of which the UK has many).

I think the issue comes when walkers shift into going for a hike where they might be going off the pathways (or where there are no pathways) or heading into less tourist heavy hilly or wooded ground. Ergo areas where the path might not be maintained or even when it is it might have very steep parts, worn areas, recent rain might make it muddy, wet and sticky/slippery etc...
When that shift happens, but the person still treats it like a walk that's when many issues arise as they are not taking prepared gear with them.


Maps, compass, water purification tablets etc... just don't factor into their thinking at all. They are both ignorant and inexperienced. Plus its the UK so we don't get public service reminders about hiking safely or such as much as some other countries might (I would expect countries and regions with things like bears, wolves, etc... to have at least a general increase in public awareness and information on the subject even just to act as a reminder prompt).



I think also it can do with how people treat the natural world. For many the natural world isn't just an escape, but its advertised and marketed to them as an escape from "reality" a safe place to wander away from the stresses and strains of city and modern life. Ergo a lot of the marketing built up around it suggests its safe, easy, simple, nice, fun and low risk. And for the vast majority it is just that; however its no no-risk and much of the safety is about preparation beforehand, but that isn't put into marketing, so people wind up with a very artificial view - esp if most of their experiences are from town parks and foothpaths on RSPB reserves and the like.

I keep various tools and supplies in the front pouch of my day sack. that way, as long as thats with me I always have essentials with me. compass, knife, survival kit, med kit, and a few other bits. I'm not really interested in hiking or going off the trail, but it can't hurt to have them. If I was going to be going anywhere remote, without phone signal, chances of unforgiving terrain etc, I would always ensure I had the correct kit, and I would let someone know my location and an expected return/contact time. but then being in the military i'm a little more switched on when it comes to that stuff anyway. its lack of knowledge thats the problem.

While we're talking about going equipped - BBC - Highland rescue after pensioner's SOS signal picked up in Texas

It might seem very old-school, but consider carrying a walkie-talkie or portable CB radio. They are very cheap here in the US, not to mention small. In some places you can't get cell-phone reception, but if you are on a hill you could get 30 miles of range on a handheld walkie talkie. Even if you can't reach the cops or a park ranger a passing trucker could mean you get saved.

 cuda1179 wrote:
It might seem very old-school, but consider carrying a walkie-talkie or portable CB radio. They are very cheap here in the US, not to mention small. In some places you can't get cell-phone reception, but if you are on a hill you could get 30 miles of range on a handheld walkie talkie. Even if you can't reach the cops or a park ranger a passing trucker could mean you get saved.

Or, instead of hoping that someone is listening for you take an emergency beacon. Constant satellite monitoring, no need to wonder if anyone is going to hear your message, and your location is included in the beacon signal so you don't have to worry about how your rescuers are going to find you. TBH if you're going out alone in the backcountry without one you're an idiot.

 Peregrine wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
It might seem very old-school, but consider carrying a walkie-talkie or portable CB radio. They are very cheap here in the US, not to mention small. In some places you can't get cell-phone reception, but if you are on a hill you could get 30 miles of range on a handheld walkie talkie. Even if you can't reach the cops or a park ranger a passing trucker could mean you get saved.

Or, instead of hoping that someone is listening for you take an emergency beacon. Constant satellite monitoring, no need to wonder if anyone is going to hear your message, and your location is included in the beacon signal so you don't have to worry about how your rescuers are going to find you. TBH if you're going out alone in the backcountry without one you're an idiot.

This, so many times. They are cheap, easy to register and have global coverage.

 Peregrine wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
It might seem very old-school, but consider carrying a walkie-talkie or portable CB radio. They are very cheap here in the US, not to mention small. In some places you can't get cell-phone reception, but if you are on a hill you could get 30 miles of range on a handheld walkie talkie. Even if you can't reach the cops or a park ranger a passing trucker could mean you get saved.

Or, instead of hoping that someone is listening for you take an emergency beacon. Constant satellite monitoring, no need to wonder if anyone is going to hear your message, and your location is included in the beacon signal so you don't have to worry about how your rescuers are going to find you. TBH if you're going out alone in the backcountry without one you're an idiot.

This doesn't have to be an either/or argument. Both can work together.

At my age, if the grass is taller than a wiener dog's butt I won't go there.

Modern living has obviously brought us great benefits, but we've lost a lot of our skills as well.

You'd be surprised at how many people can't read a map, set a map, or tell the difference between grid, true, and magnetic north...

In a tiny waterproof pouch or bag, no bigger than a few square inches, and hardly weighing anything, you can carry a small knife, a small compass, a box of matches, a tiny torch, and an SAS survival guide (or survival guide of your choice)

But most people going out into the wild seem hard-pressed even to do that.

Every summer up here in Scotland, people climb Ben Nevis - Britain's highest peak. It ain't much compared to the rest of the world, but it's still a decent height, and the temperature still drops a degree for every 1000 feet.

And what happens? Some idiots goes up in shorts and sandals, nearly dies of exposure, and my taxmoney has to pay for a helicopter to rescue the idiot.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Modern living has obviously brought us great benefits, but we've lost a lot of our skills as well.

You'd be surprised at how many people can't read a map, set a map, or tell the difference between grid, true, and magnetic north...

In a tiny waterproof pouch or bag, no bigger than a few square inches, and hardly weighing anything, you can carry a small knife, a small compass, a box of matches, a tiny torch, and an SAS survival guide (or survival guide of your choice)

But most people going out into the wild seem hard-pressed even to do that.

Every summer up here in Scotland, people climb Ben Nevis - Britain's highest peak. It ain't much compared to the rest of the world, but it's still a decent height, and the temperature still drops a degree for every 1000 feet.

And what happens? Some idiots goes up in shorts and sandals, nearly dies of exposure, and my taxmoney has to pay for a helicopter to rescue the idiot.

As someone that actually had to work with people that SHOULD by all means be able to read maps and still had the displeasure of ending up in Lichtenstein even though the Person THAT COULD and SHOULD've been reading the map (1:25'000 so a rather accurate one at that) i can say that this has nothing to do with losing of skills but rather with "Errare humanum est".

 cuda1179 wrote:
This doesn't have to be an either/or argument. Both can work together.

It's an either/or when backpacking and weight and volume matter immensely. If you've already got an extremely reliable device that automatically summons a rescue helicopter to your exact location at the press of a button from virtually anywhere on earth you don't really need to be wasting pack space and weight on a portable radio that might, if you hike out of wherever you are and up onto a good location and someone happens to be listening, get you in contact with someone who is nowhere near you and has no way to determine your location (and you're probably lost or you'd just hike out) to get you help. And if you don't have that device, well, see previous comment on the idiocy of going out into the backcountry without one.

Having done some backpacking in the US, plus a looong road trip, more backpacking and camping in western Australia, it's plain as day that if you screw up in the remote outdoors, you can get dead fast. All it takes is a bad fall with no one knowing where you are, or being dehydrated more than you think, or not being prepared for the cold, and that's it.

My wife and I did a backpacking trip in Zion, which we wound up doing our route in reverse in order to avoid some controlled burns at the time. That meant that in order to get to get to our campsite our first day was something like 16 miles and 9000 feet of elevation with our heavy packs, at a higher elevation than we were used to. We figured 'what the hell' and slogged through our first day. Our bodies were not prepared for that. The second day we could barely move, and were nearly out of water. We had our mapped locations for potable water and our filters, so that was obviously our mission for the second day. We left our packs and did the trek to water successfully (barely), allowing us to camp on our plateau a second night and then make our way to the populated valley instead of finishing the route like we had originally planned.

In the end, we were well equipped and played it safe, and in reality we weren't in THAT remote of a location. But it's really clear that had we been slightly less well prepared, and in a slightly more remote location, that situation could have gone irreparably south real fast.

Loved every minute of it though!