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 Stux wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:


But why would the Inquisitors or sisters or anyone think that Xenos were even involved. The only people who knew are either personally loyal to Gulliman, a Living Saint, one Inqusitor who herself has been exposed to xenos tech so any accusation she throws around would lead to Cawl ratting out that she was a necron puppet and Cawl himself who is probably happy to take all the credit for getting God's son back on his feet. Even if an Inquisitor magically knew what happened, to accuse a primarch and win they would need overwhelming proof.

But that is because GW chose to write it so. Everyone, (a bloody living saint included!) just went along with it. They chose to kill this potentially interesting story development where there would be conflict, friction and even potential infighting in the Imperium over a childish and boring stryline where Guilliman is just a big shiny hero and everyone loves him.

What makes you think there won't be infighting?

I saw it as just the first step in a new narrative. There are two massive hooks left open for conflict within the Imperium down the road.

1.
Guilliman detests the ecclesiarchy. He will absolutely attempt to take them down eventually. He sees them as an affront to everything the Emperor was fighting for. But he is also a pragmatist and realised that for now he can't fight a civil war while the Imperium is already in such danger.

2.
Other Primarchs. They will return, and there is no way The Lion or Russ will cow to Guilliman.

Agreed - From the Imperial POV the absolute worst Primarch to come back would be the Lion, just as likely to cause a new civil war given his personality (or lack of it) - they would be much better off with him asleep.

The Lion would just assume he was in charge now. Cheers for keeping the seat warm Bobby, I'll take it from here!

There's also Marneus Calgar's growing insecurity and envy at being left behind to guard Macragge and then having to be bailed out and cencured (even if implicitly) by Guilliman. There's the friction between veteran Marines and the Primaris, even amongst Chapters such as the Ultramarines. There's elements of the Adeptus Terra who are reluctant to give up the power structures they've built over 10,000 years. There's Whatever power structures are forming in the Imperium Nihilus, who may not want to be resuced and "liberated" after a century or more of getting by on their own. There's the Custodes' own distrust of the Space Marines. Guilliman and Cawl not necessarily having all their objectives in alignment. Planetary governors resisting or hampering the efforts to rebuild the old 500 worlds of Ultramar.
If you think that the current story has no conflict, infighting and friction, then you're simply not paying attention.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
There's also Marneus Calgar's growing insecurity and envy at being left behind to guard Macragge and then having to be bailed out and cencured (even if implicitly) by Guilliman. There's the friction between veteran Marines and the Primaris, even amongst Chapters such as the Ultramarines. There's elements of the Adeptus Terra who are reluctant to give up the power structures they've built over 10,000 years. There's Whatever power structures are forming in the Imperium Nihilus, who may not want to be resuced and "liberated" after a century or more of getting by on their own. There's the Custodes' own distrust of the Space Marines. Guilliman and Cawl not necessarily having all their objectives in alignment. Planetary governors resisting or hampering the efforts to rebuild the old 500 worlds of Ultramar.
If you think that the current story has no conflict, infighting and friction, then you're simply not paying attention.

All of these are interesting things and the should concentrate on them more and they should actually go somewhere. But every time I suggest that any of such things could result anyone actually opposing Guilliman a legion of fanboys appears to tell me how that is impossible because Guilliman is just too awesome and powerful.

 Crimson wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
There's also Marneus Calgar's growing insecurity and envy at being left behind to guard Macragge and then having to be bailed out and cencured (even if implicitly) by Guilliman. There's the friction between veteran Marines and the Primaris, even amongst Chapters such as the Ultramarines. There's elements of the Adeptus Terra who are reluctant to give up the power structures they've built over 10,000 years. There's Whatever power structures are forming in the Imperium Nihilus, who may not want to be resuced and "liberated" after a century or more of getting by on their own. There's the Custodes' own distrust of the Space Marines. Guilliman and Cawl not necessarily having all their objectives in alignment. Planetary governors resisting or hampering the efforts to rebuild the old 500 worlds of Ultramar.
If you think that the current story has no conflict, infighting and friction, then you're simply not paying attention.

All of these are interesting things and the should concentrate on them more and they should actually go somewhere. But every time I suggest that any of such things could result anyone actually opposing Guilliman a legion of fanboys appears to tell me how that is impossible because Guilliman is just too awesome and powerful.

Not what we said at all and kindly tone down the "fanboy" crap. I realise you have a pathogical hate of the character but sheesh.

The question was can a Inquisitor order around RG - we all said no thats not how it would work due to the power structure that he has built around him - its too strong and would upset too many people who benefit from him, not all of which he likes or is even agrees with.

As has been noted numerous times there plenty of issues that have and will arise but can a basic inquisitor walk up to him and order him to do stuff - nah - no more than they could Vandire.

 Crimson wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
There's also Marneus Calgar's growing insecurity and envy at being left behind to guard Macragge and then having to be bailed out and cencured (even if implicitly) by Guilliman. There's the friction between veteran Marines and the Primaris, even amongst Chapters such as the Ultramarines. There's elements of the Adeptus Terra who are reluctant to give up the power structures they've built over 10,000 years. There's Whatever power structures are forming in the Imperium Nihilus, who may not want to be resuced and "liberated" after a century or more of getting by on their own. There's the Custodes' own distrust of the Space Marines. Guilliman and Cawl not necessarily having all their objectives in alignment. Planetary governors resisting or hampering the efforts to rebuild the old 500 worlds of Ultramar.
If you think that the current story has no conflict, infighting and friction, then you're simply not paying attention.

All of these are interesting things and the should concentrate on them more and they should actually go somewhere. But every time I suggest that any of such things could result anyone actually opposing Guilliman a legion of fanboys appears to tell me how that is impossible because Guilliman is just too awesome and powerful.

Well let's have a discussion about what people here are saying, not what these 'fanboys' are saying.

Personally I think the reason there hasn't been much resistance within the Imperium to Guilliman yet, from a narrative perspective, is because that story is part of what they have planned for the return of The Lion.

 Mr Morden wrote:

As has been noted numerous times there plenty of issues that have and will arise but can a basic inquisitor walk up to him and order him to do stuff - nah - no more than they could Vandire.

And yet what happened to Vandire?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stux wrote:


Personally I think the reason there hasn't been much resistance within the Imperium to Guilliman yet, from a narrative perspective, is because that story is part of what they have planned for the return of The Lion.

I really fething hope not. I really don't want to 40K to turn into HH where you need to be a Primarch or at least some other sort of superhuman to have any agency. Kepp that Primarch soap opera out of 40K.



Furthermore, a single inquisitor alone could obviously not challenge Guilliman. It would require the Inquisition as a group, working together with other factions and people who were threatened by Guilliman upsetting the status quo.

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

As has been noted numerous times there plenty of issues that have and will arise but can a basic inquisitor walk up to him and order him to do stuff - nah - no more than they could Vandire.

And yet what happened to Vandire?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stux wrote:


Personally I think the reason there hasn't been much resistance within the Imperium to Guilliman yet, from a narrative perspective, is because that story is part of what they have planned for the return of The Lion.

I really fething hope not. I really don't want to 40K to turn into HH where you need to be a Primarch or at least some other sort of superhuman to have any agency. Kepp that Primarch soap opera out of 40K.



Furthermore, a single inquisitor alone could obviously not challenge Guilliman. It would require the Inquisition as a group, working together with other factions and people who were threatened by Guilliman upsetting the status quo.

Well, I'm afraid the Primarchs are returning. They've been super popular kits, so I'm certain they'll keep coming. And like it or not they will absolutely be the protagonists of the story going forward.

 Stux wrote:


Well, I'm afraid the Primarchs are returning. They've been super popular kits, so I'm certain they'll keep coming. And like it or not they will absolutely be the protagonists of the story going forward.

Yes, you're probably correct. And no, I don't like that. Apparently it was not enough to have whole separate game dedicated to Primarchs pummelling each other...

 Crimson wrote:

 Stux wrote:


Well, I'm afraid the Primarchs are returning. They've been super popular kits, so I'm certain they'll keep coming. And like it or not they will absolutely be the protagonists of the story going forward.

Yes, you're probably correct. And no, I don't like that. Apparently it was not enough to have whole separate game dedicated to Primarchs pummelling each other...

Ah but everyone is boycotting that game now

 Crimson wrote:

 Stux wrote:


Well, I'm afraid the Primarchs are returning. They've been super popular kits, so I'm certain they'll keep coming. And like it or not they will absolutely be the protagonists of the story going forward.

Yes, you're probably correct. And no, I don't like that. Apparently it was not enough to have whole separate game dedicated to Primarchs pummelling each other...

In a twisted ironic way 40k's becoming more stagnant as the current "storyline" keeps advancing. GW is taking the most convenient path and turning 40k in to another rendition of 30k, so instead of grand sweeping stories that require though and effort like Game of Thrones or Romance of the Three Kingdoms we get a bunch of immortal idiots fighting their each other again and again.. and again… and again. Huzzah!

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

In a twisted ironic way 40k's becoming more stagnant as the current "storyline" keeps advancing. GW is taking the most convenient path and turning 40k in to another rendition of 30k, so instead of grand sweeping stories that require though and effort like Game of Thrones or Romance of the Three Kingdoms we get a bunch of immortal idiots fighting their each other again and again.. and again… and again. Huzzah!

Yep. Well said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stux wrote:

Ah but everyone is boycotting that game now

Do you hear that GW! That's because everyone hates Primarchs! No more Primarchs!

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
In a twisted ironic way 40k's becoming more stagnant as the current "storyline" keeps advancing. GW is taking the most convenient path and turning 40k in to another rendition of 30k, so instead of grand sweeping stories that require though and effort like Game of Thrones or Romance of the Three Kingdoms we get a bunch of immortal idiots fighting their each other again and again.. and again… and again. Huzzah!

I'm sure most people would love for the lore in 40k to go the way of a song of ice and fire with people only getting one book in the last 12-13 years. Ultimately as much as some people don't like it the horus heresy sold well so they're bringing back characters that people have been asking for forever into the present with models and new lore. If they didn't make the primarchs so much more powerful than their marines this probably wouldn't have happened.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Stux wrote:


Well, I'm afraid the Primarchs are returning. They've been super popular kits, so I'm certain they'll keep coming. And like it or not they will absolutely be the protagonists of the story going forward.

Yes, you're probably correct. And no, I don't like that. Apparently it was not enough to have whole separate game dedicated to Primarchs pummelling each other...

In a twisted ironic way 40k's becoming more stagnant as the current "storyline" keeps advancing. GW is taking the most convenient path and turning 40k in to another rendition of 30k, so instead of grand sweeping stories that require though and effort like Game of Thrones or Romance of the Three Kingdoms we get a bunch of immortal idiots fighting their each other again and again.. and again… and again. Huzzah!

I don't totally disagree with you. But at the same time I appreciate the position GW are in too. They simply can't get all GoTs on their storyline. Complex stories of betrayal, changing sides, and major characters checking out simply aren't compatible with an expensive miniatures game.

Take the idea some people had that Russ could return having fallen to Khorne, just as an example. It's a fun idea. But they can't do it, because it would possibly off most of the Space Wolf players. They'd feel seriously screwed.

They have to leave scope for people to continue to field the armies they have so much emotional attachment to, and that restricts how much they can do to rock the boat in the lore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course they did do it in Fantasy with End Times... And that caused some major rifts which will never be healed for some of the older players.

Besides saying "instead of GoiT of three kingdoms" implies we might have gotten that, has GW EVER given us that type of storyline?

It's also quite impossible to deliver such storyline as background to build a game on.

 Jidmah wrote:
It's also quite impossible to deliver such storyline as background to build a game on.

not without adapting a massive change from how GW delivers the setting no, GW has never done a very good job tying novels to game events etc that would be nesscary for that type of thing, really the only game setting I'm familer with that has sort of managed it is Battletech and It's a open question how well they've done it

Regarding the initial question, my own opinion is that while the i inquisition may have power over the office Guilliman posses, they don't actually have authority over his person.

The Imperium isn't a place of checks and balances, it's an autocracy that has had to find a workaround solution to its autocrat being unable to lead for 10,000 years, and find a solution that works within all the power boundaries set up to maintain that autocrats power with no rivals.

But now a new autocrats has been able to take power by the apparant blessing of the old one, amd supported by the most prestigious and singularly important power broker in the entire government.

He's untouchable IMO.

Even Ceasar, emperor of rome, leader of the world, got a knife in his back.
Doesnt matter how powerful you are or high up you go. Tick off enough people and theyll be there to cut you down.

A lone inquisitor might not be able to do much. But thats the thing about inquisitors. Theyre never alone. They have their own webs and wheels and wheels withing wheels. The organisation of the inquisition wouldnt have too much trouble orchestrating power moves with all its multinumerous connections if it so desired. Rowboat didnt make any friends when he basically told the inquisition they were idiots and started making his own quasi inquisitors to "make an accurate history". That alone would be rage fuel to many as anything that comes out of that that isnt in line with the creed and what the inquisition says so can only be interpreted as absolute heresy and bobby g easily labeled as a fraud by many regardless of how many important people say hes cool.

Guilliman isnt Caesar; hes Augustus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like wise who is the average Imperial citizen actually going to believe- the word of some random inquisitor, or the word of a Cystodian, the only true appointed (and themselves semi devine and legendary) voice the emperor?

The inqusition only has as much power as can be mustered over 10000 years of religious dogma that is totally bent in supporting what the Custodians say the emperor said. And that isnt going to be much.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Even Ceasar, emperor of rome, leader of the world, got a knife in his back.
Doesnt matter how powerful you are or high up you go. Tick off enough people and theyll be there to cut you down.

A lone inquisitor might not be able to do much. But thats the thing about inquisitors. Theyre never alone. They have their own webs and wheels and wheels withing wheels. The organisation of the inquisition wouldnt have too much trouble orchestrating power moves with all its multinumerous connections if it so desired. Rowboat didnt make any friends when he basically told the inquisition they were idiots and started making his own quasi inquisitors to "make an accurate history". That alone would be rage fuel to many as anything that comes out of that that isnt in line with the creed and what the inquisition says so can only be interpreted as absolute heresy and bobby g easily labeled as a fraud by many regardless of how many important people say hes cool.

except that you're assuming all Inqusitors would oppose the idea. For every Inqusitor who hears the idea and screams heresy, there are likely inqusitors who think it's a good idea. and there are furthermore OTHERS who likely take a more nuanced version and think it may be benifical for certain parties to have a more complete view of actual history. Unless you really think EVERY Inqusitor is a history burning moron.

 Crimson wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
There's also Marneus Calgar's growing insecurity and envy at being left behind to guard Macragge and then having to be bailed out and cencured (even if implicitly) by Guilliman. There's the friction between veteran Marines and the Primaris, even amongst Chapters such as the Ultramarines. There's elements of the Adeptus Terra who are reluctant to give up the power structures they've built over 10,000 years. There's Whatever power structures are forming in the Imperium Nihilus, who may not want to be resuced and "liberated" after a century or more of getting by on their own. There's the Custodes' own distrust of the Space Marines. Guilliman and Cawl not necessarily having all their objectives in alignment. Planetary governors resisting or hampering the efforts to rebuild the old 500 worlds of Ultramar.
If you think that the current story has no conflict, infighting and friction, then you're simply not paying attention.

All of these are interesting things and the should concentrate on them more and they should actually go somewhere. But every time I suggest that any of such things could result anyone actually opposing Guilliman a legion of fanboys appears to tell me how that is impossible because Guilliman is just too awesome and powerful.

They are called Ultramarines and they have bolters.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Even Ceasar, emperor of rome, leader of the world, got a knife in his back.
Doesnt matter how powerful you are or high up you go. Tick off enough people and theyll be there to cut you down.

A lone inquisitor might not be able to do much. But thats the thing about inquisitors. Theyre never alone. They have their own webs and wheels and wheels withing wheels. The organisation of the inquisition wouldnt have too much trouble orchestrating power moves with all its multinumerous connections if it so desired. Rowboat didnt make any friends when he basically told the inquisition they were idiots and started making his own quasi inquisitors to "make an accurate history". That alone would be rage fuel to many as anything that comes out of that that isnt in line with the creed and what the inquisition says so can only be interpreted as absolute heresy and bobby g easily labeled as a fraud by many regardless of how many important people say hes cool.

Possibily but also remember that Rg is the annoited son of GOD, chosen by Him, created by Him - many Inquisitors are true believers and when a Living Saint is one of those that confirms his status as did his audience with the Emperor himself.

Ceaser did too much too quickly, I would agree that in some ways Rg is more Augustus or Sulla both of whom surived to old age.

I also agree however that many in the Inqustion will not take kindly to any reduction in their power and it is likely a cabel or cabel's has already arisen - now how much they can do (or if they avoid fighting each other) is the question.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
There's also Marneus Calgar's growing insecurity and envy at being left behind to guard Macragge and then having to be bailed out and cencured (even if implicitly) by Guilliman. There's the friction between veteran Marines and the Primaris, even amongst Chapters such as the Ultramarines. There's elements of the Adeptus Terra who are reluctant to give up the power structures they've built over 10,000 years. There's Whatever power structures are forming in the Imperium Nihilus, who may not want to be resuced and "liberated" after a century or more of getting by on their own. There's the Custodes' own distrust of the Space Marines. Guilliman and Cawl not necessarily having all their objectives in alignment. Planetary governors resisting or hampering the efforts to rebuild the old 500 worlds of Ultramar.
If you think that the current story has no conflict, infighting and friction, then you're simply not paying attention.

All of these are interesting things and the should concentrate on them more and they should actually go somewhere. But every time I suggest that any of such things could result anyone actually opposing Guilliman a legion of fanboys appears to tell me how that is impossible because Guilliman is just too awesome and powerful.

They are called Ultramarines and they have bolters.

Thing is it's not JUST the Ultramarines supporting Gulliman (although the Ultramarines and their sucessors alone is a pretty potent power block) in addition Gulliman has the Custodes in his corner, furthermore the ecclesiarchy offically backs him as a living Saint. This does not mean Gulliman won't have push back, but it means the push back isn't going to be obvious . no one's going to get up on a Pulpit and dennounce Gulliman as a traitor and heretic, they MAY however move somewhat slower on getting things done then they should.

Carlovonsexron wrote:
Guilliman isnt Caesar; hes Augustus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like wise who is the average Imperial citizen actually going to believe- the word of some random inquisitor, or the word of a Cystodian, the only true appointed (and themselves semi devine and legendary) voice the emperor?

The inqusition only has as much power as can be mustered over 10000 years of religious dogma that is totally bent in supporting what the Custodians say the emperor said. And that isnt going to be much.

Guilliman isnt Augustus either, he's Jesus. Caesar was a man, Augustus was a man. The Emperor is a god, and Guilliman his son. Its Zeus and Heracles.

He will be Augustus when his brothers return, that's for sure- Guilliman may be forced to share power in an imperial triumvirate, but its almost assured that he'll be able to martial the most individual forces, and certainly have tue best political acumen between Russ, The Lion and himself. Not that I expect them to come to blows; or if they do maybe chaos will also be in a period of internal turmoil to explain why they dont exploit tue situation.

Carlovonsexron wrote:
He will be Augustus when his brothers return, that's for sure- Guilliman may be forced to share power in an imperial triumvirate, but its almost assured that he'll be able to martial the most individual forces, and certainly have tue best political acumen between Russ, The Lion and himself. Not that I expect them to come to blows; or if they do maybe chaos will also be in a period of internal turmoil to explain why they dont exploit tue situation.

I expect the Lion to make a power grab, but be rebuked because Guilliman's power base is already too strong (and the Custodes will stay behind him).

The Lion will then retreat with The Rock to Imperium Nihilus and cause Dante problems. Ultimately there'll pretty much be a cold war type situation between the main Imperium and Nihilus. Some skirmishing perhaps even, but stopping short of all out war, and cooperation against Humanity's biggest threats.

If Russ is thrown in the mix, I'm not sure where he'll end up. Possibly with the Lion as while they have no love for each other, there is respect, and he won't be RGs dog in the way he was for the Emperor.

Just theory mongering of course, but something like that feels like a possible route to take with it all. If all the Primarchs that come back just become super best friends I won't be too impressed!

 Deadshot wrote:

Guilliman isnt Augustus either, he's Jesus. Caesar was a man, Augustus was a man. The Emperor is a god, and Guilliman his son. Its Zeus and Heracles.

No, Caesar was a god.

I think it's more realistic to see them being super best friends though- none of them are going to be happy with what the Imperium became in thier absence, and after an initial shake up to see what kind of a balance works I can't see them being so petty as to not try and fix the Imperium.

Certainly those primarchs who supported the codex will have tue foresight to work together. If Russ and The Lion end up the odd men out thats rather self condemnin in terms of character. But then that would also he a very interesting story line (the pocket kingdoms of Russ and the Lion and the wider Imperium headed up bu Robute, Corax, The Khan, and if we're lucky Dorn. It's also a foreseeable event that even Valdor could make a return, considering the Custodes codex makes it plain that he never died “on camera”...

Doesn't it seem completely ludicrous to anyone else that these guys have been missing for ten thousand years, but then bunch of them happen to return pretty much at the same time?