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Carlovonsexron wrote:
I think it's more realistic to see them being super best friends though- none of them are going to be happy with what the Imperium became in thier absence, and after an initial shake up to see what kind of a balance works I can't see them being so petty as to not try and fix the Imperium.

Certainly those primarchs who supported the codex will have tue foresight to work together. If Russ and The Lion end up the odd men out thats rather self condemnin in terms of character. But then that would also he a very interesting story line (the pocket kingdoms of Russ and the Lion and the wider Imperium headed up bu Robute, Corax, The Khan, and if we're lucky Dorn. It's also a foreseeable event that even Valdor could make a return, considering the Custodes codex makes it plain that he never died “on camera”...

I could totally see the Lion being petty enough and Russ being angry enough to cause serious headaches for Guilliman! I don't think either are pragmatic enough to suffer the ecclesiarchy to continue to exist either.

The Lion would believe without a doubt that he should be Lord Commander.

It is possible that RG takes the high ground, gives The Lion the title to sooth his ego, and then continues to actually run things as he was previously.

Yes, buuuuuut.... Prophesy is a real thing in 40k, and there's been lore that at least Russ if not the others woukd cime back for the “end times”.

Now its always been taken for granted that these were just hopeful myths in the style of king Arthur, but it turns out they were correct. Which is kinda classic 40k in a way- that the weird religious stuff that shouldnt be possible is exactly what happens.

 Stux wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote:
I think it's more realistic to see them being super best friends though- none of them are going to be happy with what the Imperium became in thier absence, and after an initial shake up to see what kind of a balance works I can't see them being so petty as to not try and fix the Imperium.

Certainly those primarchs who supported the codex will have tue foresight to work together. If Russ and The Lion end up the odd men out thats rather self condemnin in terms of character. But then that would also he a very interesting story line (the pocket kingdoms of Russ and the Lion and the wider Imperium headed up bu Robute, Corax, The Khan, and if we're lucky Dorn. It's also a foreseeable event that even Valdor could make a return, considering the Custodes codex makes it plain that he never died “on camera”...

I could totally see the Lion being petty enough and Russ being angry enough to cause serious headaches for Guilliman! I don't think either are pragmatic enough to suffer the ecclesiarchy to continue to exist either.

The Lion would believe without a doubt that he should be Lord Commander.

It is possible that RG takes the high ground, gives The Lion the title to sooth his ego, and then continues to actually run things as he was previously.

Boy all this seems super dreadful. I really hope there won't be any more loyalist Primarchs. This is exactly the sort of Primarch soap opera nonsense that makes me want to puke.

Carlovonsexron wrote:
Yes, buuuuuut.... Prophesy is a real thing in 40k, and there's been lore that at least Russ if not the others woukd cime back for the “end times”.

Now its always been taken for granted that these were just hopeful myths in the style of king Arthur, but it turns out they were correct. Which is kinda classic 40k in a way- that the weird religious stuff that shouldnt be possible is exactly what happens.

Well that's the great contradiction of the Imperial truth isn't it. That religion is superstitious mumbo jumbo that humanity must leave being... But oh yeah, the warp is a thing and your emotions spawn gods!

And that's a 80s punk theme of early 40k at its finest- government tells you one thing and its really the exact opposite.

Carlovonsexron wrote:
Yes, buuuuuut.... Prophesy is a real thing in 40k, and there's been lore that at least Russ if not the others woukd cime back for the “end times”.

Now its always been taken for granted that these were just hopeful myths in the style of king Arthur, but it turns out they were correct. Which is kinda classic 40k in a way- that the weird religious stuff that shouldnt be possible is exactly what happens.

And then the setting is ruined. Yay! But it kinda is already, so I guess they can go all the way...

Carlovonsexron wrote:
And that's a 80s punk theme of early 40k at its finest- government tells you one thing and its really the exact opposite.

Hah! Yes, 40k has never shown authority in an especially flattering light!

But yeah, there's loads of interesting ways this could play out. I just hope they do SOMETHING with it. But I am optimistic

I think we should find out before the end of the year if Gathering Storm was an isolated thing or if it signalled the start of a new approach to the lore.

 Crimson wrote:


Boy all this seems super dreadful. I really hope there won't be any more loyalist Primarchs. This is exactly the sort of Primarch soap opera nonsense that makes me want to puke.

I agree with the melodramatic soap opera part, but I do like seeing the Imperium go in a new direction, and stumble drunkenly out of its dark age and into a period of reinvigoration.

 Crimson wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote:
I think it's more realistic to see them being super best friends though- none of them are going to be happy with what the Imperium became in thier absence, and after an initial shake up to see what kind of a balance works I can't see them being so petty as to not try and fix the Imperium.

Certainly those primarchs who supported the codex will have tue foresight to work together. If Russ and The Lion end up the odd men out thats rather self condemnin in terms of character. But then that would also he a very interesting story line (the pocket kingdoms of Russ and the Lion and the wider Imperium headed up bu Robute, Corax, The Khan, and if we're lucky Dorn. It's also a foreseeable event that even Valdor could make a return, considering the Custodes codex makes it plain that he never died “on camera”...

I could totally see the Lion being petty enough and Russ being angry enough to cause serious headaches for Guilliman! I don't think either are pragmatic enough to suffer the ecclesiarchy to continue to exist either.

The Lion would believe without a doubt that he should be Lord Commander.

It is possible that RG takes the high ground, gives The Lion the title to sooth his ego, and then continues to actually run things as he was previously.

Boy all this seems super dreadful. I really hope there won't be any more loyalist Primarchs. This is exactly the sort of Primarch soap opera nonsense that makes me want to puke.

Each to their own. Seems awesome to me. The people I talk to are pretty excited to see where it goes!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Carlovonsexron wrote:

 Crimson wrote:


Boy all this seems super dreadful. I really hope there won't be any more loyalist Primarchs. This is exactly the sort of Primarch soap opera nonsense that makes me want to puke.

I agree with the melodramatic soap opera part, but I do like seeing the Imperium go in a new direction, and stumble drunkenly out of its dark age and into a period of reinvigoration.

Definitely this. All grimdark all the time is extremely tedious for me. You need hope for the dark stuff to really mean anything. Otherwise it's just arbitrary numbers of dead guardsmen, yawn.

Carlovonsexron wrote:

 Crimson wrote:


Boy all this seems super dreadful. I really hope there won't be any more loyalist Primarchs. This is exactly the sort of Primarch soap opera nonsense that makes me want to puke.

I agree with the melodramatic soap opera part, but I do like seeing the Imperium go in a new direction, and stumble drunkenly out of its dark age and into a period of reinvigoration.

Hell no! The dark age is like one of the central element of the setting. They could stumble into even worse dark age though, there is still a way to go before they hit the bottom. The imperium already is kinda like the Holy Roman Empire in space, but I would like to see the fractured nature of it being played out more, with the power blocks working against each other and even some infighting. It would make sense to emphasise this game-wise too, as probably at least half the 40K games actually played are Imperium vs. Imperium games...

See, to me the Imperium isnt the Holy Roman Empire, but the acrual Roman empire in space; the Emperor is this combination of Alexander the Great and Augustus, and Guilliman most properly seen as Constantine.

I see this mostly because the way the Imperiums military is set up is exactly like the late Roman empire, with three tiers of military assets. (PDF-Guard-Astartes compared to the Limitanei, Comitatenses and Palatini/Scholae) as well as the major theme being a decline from greatness and a gradual decline into local autonomy ajd feudalism from aj increasingly autocraric, brital akd ineffective central government, along with the main threats being Space Barbarians from North (realtive to Terra/Rome), and the Galactic east with the endless hordes of huns/Tyranids.

Ultramar being Constantinople (even more obvious if you look at the position of ultramar ad a thin passage of safty between the warp rifts) and there you have it IMO.

The thing about such a setting is that you cam have reformers and dreamers who can set back the clock- Justinians and Belisarius’s or people even great new transformers, like Heraclius or the successful Emperors of the “Byzantine” period.

The parallel isnt exactly 1 to 1, but the point is even when things seem on a road to ruin sometimes great people arise to change the course. Though for 40k its new people are actually the old ones. Which, eh, but lets see where it goes.

Carlovonsexron wrote:
See, to me the Imperium isnt the Holy Roman Empire, but the acrual Roman empire in space; the Emperor is this combination of Alexander the Great and Augustus, and Guilliman most properly seen as Constantine.

I see this mostly because the way the Imperiums military is set up is exactly like the late Roman empire, with three tiers of military assets. (PDF-Guard-Astartes compared to the Limitanei, Comitatenses and Palatini/Scholae) as well as the major theme being a decline from greatness and a gradual decline into local autonomy ajd feudalism from aj increasingly autocraric, brital akd ineffective central government, along with the main threats being Space Barbarians from North (realtive to Terra/Rome), and the Galactic east with the endless hordes of huns/Tyranids.

Ultramar being Constantinople (even more obvious if you look at the position of ultramar ad a thin passage of safty between the warp rifts) and there you have it IMO.

The thing about such a setting is that you cam have reformers and dreamers who can set back the clock- Justinians and Belisarius’s or people even great new transformers, like Heraclius or the successful Emperors of the “Byzantine” period.

The parallel isnt exactly 1 to 1, but the point is even when things seem on a road to ruin sometimes great people arise to change the course. Though for 40k its new people are actually the old ones. Which, eh, but lets see where it goes.

Yeah, those parallels are certainly there. I think it would have been cooler, if the High Lords would not have instantly capitulated to Guilliman. He could have been made the ruler of Ultramar and maybe even the Lord Commander Ultima (the highest military leader of the Ultima Segmentum,) but the jealous High Lords would have kept the Terra and the reins of power to themselves (while obviously being really polite about it.) This would have set up the declining old Rome and new and innovative Constantinople parallel and made two distinct power blocks withing the Imperium,

Imperiums certainly has parallels for a lot of different things.

40k did start as Warhammer... IN SPAAACE, as such Imperium is the Empire, which was modelled after Holy Roman Empire, put into SPAAACE.

In that vein I'd say that DAoT was the "Roman Empire" of 40k, which makes Imperiums the Holy Roman Empire - a shadow of the past glory that desperately tries to prop itself up as the inheritors of the former empires glory despite not coming even close to it.

Ultramar is the nickname of the Portugese Empire, which ruled Brazil - and Charles V ruled not only the Holy Roman Empire but also the Spanish Empire, which ruled most of the americas.

Another parallel with the Imperium could be the Nazi Germany, who wanted the old german colonial empire back and to protect what they considered "pure europians", but yet most people they managed to get killed where europians, and they wrecked any chance for the europian colonial empires.to recover from the damage of WW1.

To be honest, I feel like the Imperium was never so much the warhammer empire in space as much as people want it to be. They were both “generic human realm: IN SPAAAACE” and not really based off each other. The fluff certain never lines up very well to make them equivalent. Even in warhammer, the Empire is only narrowly the strongest human realm, and had significant competition is both martial prowess and prestige from the other buman factions; factor in the non human factions and ita clear the fantasy empire isn't anything like the 40k Imperium. The differences in internal politics make it even more evident.


40K Imperium is the brain child of a whole lot of sci fi and historu lovers getting together and ad hoc making a future history, an aimless amalgamation of different influences that eventually hit its stride, but it never really seemed like a direct cognate to the empire in warhammer beyond both being an empire, being the primary human faction, and both being influenced by the gothic sensibilities of their creators. (IMO)

 Crimson wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Guilliman isnt Augustus either, he's Jesus. Caesar was a man, Augustus was a man. The Emperor is a god, and Guilliman his son. Its Zeus and Heracles.

No, Caesar was a god.

No, Caesar was a man given divine recognition by the state with no actually godly powers we know of in the real world, as a reward for his accomplishments.

The Emperor is an actual god with actually god-level abilities he used to accomplish things.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Guilliman isnt Augustus either, he's Jesus. Caesar was a man, Augustus was a man. The Emperor is a god, and Guilliman his son. Its Zeus and Heracles.

No, Caesar was a god.

No, Caesar was a man given divine recognition by the state with no actually godly powers we know of in the real world, as a reward for his accomplishments.

The Emperor is an actual god with actually god-level abilities he used to accomplish things.

Your other example was Jesus. Do you think he really had godly powers either? And for purpose of this discussion it only matters how people perceive things, not how they are. If the Romans believed Caesar was a god, he was a god to them.

 Crimson wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Guilliman isnt Augustus either, he's Jesus. Caesar was a man, Augustus was a man. The Emperor is a god, and Guilliman his son. Its Zeus and Heracles.

No, Caesar was a god.

No, Caesar was a man given divine recognition by the state with no actually godly powers we know of in the real world, as a reward for his accomplishments.

The Emperor is an actual god with actually god-level abilities he used to accomplish things.

Your other example was Jesus. Do you think he really had godly powers either? And for purpose of this discussion it only matters how people perceive things, not how they are. If the Romans believed Caesar was a god, he was a god to them.

Jesus is Guilliman, the son of god. The Emperor is God or Jupiter or Zeus. Whichever you prefer. Because he had ACTUAL godlevel powers are showed them. Fact he has godlevel power.

The Romans revered and viewed him as godly but he wasnt healing lepers and curing blindness. Guilliman's 40k revival is more like the Second Coming with Christ with the 10 Commandments, 2nd Edition and signed by the author.

 Deadshot wrote:


Jesus is Guilliman, the son of god. The Emperor is God or Jupiter or Zeus. Whichever you prefer. Because he had ACTUAL godlevel powers are showed them. Fact he has godlevel power.

The Romans revered and viewed him as godly but he wasn't healing lepers and curing blindness. Guilliman's 40k revival is more like the Second Coming with Christ with the 10 Commandments, 2nd Edition and signed by the author.

Yeah, Jesus wasn't really healing lepers or the blind either, yet some people believe he did. He was just as much son of God that Caesar was a descendant of Mars. Emperor has been a rotting corpse for ten millennia, what matters is that people believe he is a god. Guilliman is not really his son either, he is Frankenstein's monster, a lab experiment. What matters is that people see him as semi-divine regardless. So it is about the perception.

We should probably stere away from what exactly Jesus did or didn't do before the thread gets locked :p

 Stux wrote:
We should probably stere away from what exactly Jesus did or didn't do before the thread gets locked :p

Perhaps someone shouldn't have used him as an example then!

Edited by RiTides

 Stux wrote:
We should probably stere away from what exactly Jesus did or didn't do before the thread gets locked :p

Yes, please.

Back on topic, and no more discussion of Caesar, Jesus, or any other historical figure. This forum is for 40k General Discussion, not history or religion!

Any questions, just PM me, thanks.

 Crimson wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:


Jesus is Guilliman, the son of god. The Emperor is God or Jupiter or Zeus. Whichever you prefer. Because he had ACTUAL godlevel powers are showed them. Fact he has godlevel power.

The Romans revered and viewed him as godly but he wasn't healing lepers and curing blindness. Guilliman's 40k revival is more like the Second Coming with Christ with the 10 Commandments, 2nd Edition and signed by the author.

Yeah, Jesus wasn't really healing lepers or the blind either, yet some people believe he did. He was just as much son of God that Caesar was a descendant of Mars. Emperor has been a rotting corpse for ten millennia, what matters is that people believe he is a god. Guilliman is not really his son either, he is Frankenstein's monster, a lab experiment. What matters is that people see him as semi-divine regardless. So it is about the perception.

The difference between Caesar and the Emperor however is that Caesar was born, had parents, etc, like any other human. The Emperor was from an unknown origin and had real, tangible, provable godlike powers, unlike Caesar who was perceived as a godlike for reasons unrelated to any powers. He was a great general, the Emperor could disintegrate a man with a thought, rip out a soul and obliterate it, and force a Legion to its knees with his powers.

RiTides: I believe these are legitimate topics of discussion as they are a comparrison of position and status to the Emperor, in order to make a point on the topic. The topic beingi if the Inq can judicste over Guilliman, to which someone made a comparison to Caesar getting stabbed at the back despite status, to which I disagree, as the Emperor is more akin to a god (any god) than a monarch figure. The historical world is as much an inspiration for 40k as fiction and sci-fi and is a legitimate topic related to the thread.

The Emperor has been a corpse ten millennia. Sure, we as readers know that he 'really' had magical powers, but the people in the setting really cannot reasonably know that. Sure, they believe it, but they would believe it just the same if the whole thing was just a myth or a lie made up by the Ecclesiarchy. Same with Guilliman, sure he is a big stong dude in a giant robo armour, but this is a setting where Space Marines, Orgyns, Dreadnoughts and all sort of big stong creatures exist. So again the important par is that the people believe that he is mythic hero returned. They would believe this even if he was a well prepped spare head Cawl had bolted on armoured robobody. So like with the historical figures we are no longer allowed to talk about, the important part is the perception and belief.

 Crimson wrote:
The Emperor has been a corpse ten millennia. Sure, we as readers know that he 'really' had magical powers, but the people in the setting really cannot reasonably know that. Sure, they believe it, but they would believe it just the same if the whole thing was just a myth or a lie made up by the Ecclesiarchy. Same with Guilliman, sure he is a big stong dude in a giant robo armour, but this is a setting where Space Marines, Orgyns, Dreadnoughts and all sort of big stong creatures exist. So again the important par is that the people believe that he is mythic hero returned. They would believe this even if he was a well prepped spare head Cawl had bolted on armoured robobody. So like with the historical figures we are no longer allowed to talk about, the important part is the perception and belief.

"The Emperor Protects" is not just retoric - its something he does do - directly or though others like Living Saints.

Not sure what point you are now trying to make?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
The Emperor has been a corpse ten millennia. Sure, we as readers know that he 'really' had magical powers, but the people in the setting really cannot reasonably know that. Sure, they believe it, but they would believe it just the same if the whole thing was just a myth or a lie made up by the Ecclesiarchy. Same with Guilliman, sure he is a big stong dude in a giant robo armour, but this is a setting where Space Marines, Orgyns, Dreadnoughts and all sort of big stong creatures exist. So again the important par is that the people believe that he is mythic hero returned. They would believe this even if he was a well prepped spare head Cawl had bolted on armoured robobody. So like with the historical figures we are no longer allowed to talk about, the important part is the perception and belief.

"The Emperor Protects" is not just retoric - its something he does do - directly or though others like Living Saints.

Not sure what point you are now trying to make?

I think he's trying to say that he doesn't believe in the God-Emperor.

Get the flamers boys! We've got a heretic to burn!

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
The Emperor has been a corpse ten millennia. Sure, we as readers know that he 'really' had magical powers, but the people in the setting really cannot reasonably know that. Sure, they believe it, but they would believe it just the same if the whole thing was just a myth or a lie made up by the Ecclesiarchy. Same with Guilliman, sure he is a big stong dude in a giant robo armour, but this is a setting where Space Marines, Orgyns, Dreadnoughts and all sort of big stong creatures exist. So again the important par is that the people believe that he is mythic hero returned. They would believe this even if he was a well prepped spare head Cawl had bolted on armoured robobody. So like with the historical figures we are no longer allowed to talk about, the important part is the perception and belief.

"The Emperor Protects" is not just retoric - its something he does do - directly or though others like Living Saints.

Not sure what point you are now trying to make?

That it mostly doesn't matter how things are, only that how they're perceived.

That there are some people that are kinda hard to kill is hardly proof of divine intervention. And even if we as readers would know that's what it is, do you think people in of the Imperium meet living saints regularly? Of course not, they believe in them because the Ecclesiarchy tells them so. Similarly they believe that Guilliman is a divine saviour because the Ecclesiarchy told them so. And had the Ecclesiarchy instead told them that he is a blasphemous zombie, a result of xeno-witch necromancy and sacrilege against the good name of Saint Roboute then they would have believed that.

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
The Emperor has been a corpse ten millennia. Sure, we as readers know that he 'really' had magical powers, but the people in the setting really cannot reasonably know that. Sure, they believe it, but they would believe it just the same if the whole thing was just a myth or a lie made up by the Ecclesiarchy. Same with Guilliman, sure he is a big stong dude in a giant robo armour, but this is a setting where Space Marines, Orgyns, Dreadnoughts and all sort of big stong creatures exist. So again the important par is that the people believe that he is mythic hero returned. They would believe this even if he was a well prepped spare head Cawl had bolted on armoured robobody. So like with the historical figures we are no longer allowed to talk about, the important part is the perception and belief.

"The Emperor Protects" is not just retoric - its something he does do - directly or though others like Living Saints.

Not sure what point you are now trying to make?

That it mostly doesn't matter how things are, only that how they're perceived.

That there are some people that are kinda hard to kill is hardly proof of divine intervention. And even if we as readers would know that's what it is, do you think people in of the Imperium meet living saints regularly? Of course not, they believe in them because the Ecclesiarchy tells them so. Similarly they believe that Guilliman is a divine saviour because the Ecclesiarchy told them so. And had the Ecclesiarchy instead told them that he is a blasphemous zombie, a result of xeno-witch necromancy and sacrilege against the good name of Saint Roboute then they would have believed that.

er ok.... But they didn't - because he is not.... he is a Primarch. Thats what he is and thats how he is perceived - there is not a difference.

 Mr Morden wrote:

er ok.... But they didn't - because he is not.... he is a Primarch. Thats what he is and thats how he is perceived - there is not a difference.

That is only a matter of perspective. Sure he is a Primarch. He is also resurrected by a xeno-necromancy. Whether one considers that blasphemy is a matter of opinion. Personally I find it rather implausible that a puritan Inquisitor and a devout Sister of Battle would not see xeno-necromancy and heretech resurrecting a saint blasphemy, but that's how they wrote it. For example if Satanists would start resurrecting dead saints by necromancy, I really doubt Catholics would just declare it a miracle and be cool with it.

And what religious organisations tell to people has very little to do with how things are, and very much to do what those organisations want people to believe. It is about control and power, especially in a dark and dystopic setting like 40K.

 Stux wrote:

I could totally see the Lion being petty enough and Russ being angry enough to cause serious headaches for Guilliman! I don't think either are pragmatic enough to suffer the ecclesiarchy to continue to exist either.

The Lion would believe without a doubt that he should be Lord Commander.

It is possible that RG takes the high ground, gives The Lion the title to sooth his ego, and then continues to actually run things as he was previously.

Or possibly give him the title of Warmaster since he was so sore about missing out on that one last time round.

I actually think that either the Lion or the Wolf returning would be less a drama and more a help to Bobby G. Yes they have their differences but they learned their lesson during the HH that they could not afford to keep fighting each other. Letting the Lion take charge of the military side of things would free RG up to actually try and rebuild the Imperium properly rather than having to spend 95% of his time running around putting out bush fires.

Simmilarly I don't see Russ as causing that much trouble. RG considered him one of the "dauntless few" so obviously held him in high esteem. Guilliman is a brilliant military leader by mortal standards but was not in the running for the title or Warmaster. The reason for successes of the Ultras during the Great Crusade were as much down to their size as anything else. Guilliman is brilliant at logistics, organisation and running things. If you were assigning Primarchs cabinet offices, you would want RG for Home Secretary. He is better qualified to by Lord Commander than anyone else in the Imperium but if one of his more tactically-minded brothers showed up, I am sure he would be only too happy to share the load.

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

er ok.... But they didn't - because he is not.... he is a Primarch. Thats what he is and thats how he is perceived - there is not a difference.

That is only a matter of perspective. Sure he is a Primarch. He is also resurrected by a xeno-necromancy. Whether one considers that blasphemy is a matter of opinion. Personally I find it rather implausible that a puritan Inquisitor and a devout Sister of Battle would not see xeno-necromancy and heretech resurrecting a saint blasphemy, but that's how they wrote it. For example if Satanists would start resurrecting dead saints by necromancy, I really doubt Catholics would just declare it a miracle and be cool with it.

And what religious organisations tell to people has very little to do with how things are, and very much to do what those organisations want people to believe. It is about control and power, especially in a dark and dystopic setting like 40K.

I think people tend to oversell the xeno-necromancy too much IMO sometimes. Ynnari help was a factor, but don't forget the fundamental basis for his resurrection was Mechanicus technology. In any case, I think Morden's case still stands, it doesn't matter whether or not it's "blasphemy" or not how he got revived (not to mention no one knows how he came back besides a very small circle of people). He's a primarch, through and through.