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 Grimskul wrote:

I think people tend to oversell the xeno-necromancy too much IMO sometimes. Ynnari help was a factor, but don't forget the fundamental basis for his resurrection was Mechanicus technology. In any case, I think Morden's case still stands, it doesn't matter whether or not it's "blasphemy" or not how he got revived (not to mention no one knows how he came back besides a very small circle of people). He's a primarch, through and through.

And if he was actually a thrall of Yvraine set up by the Ynnead to take control of the Imperium how would things look any different?

 Crimson wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

I think people tend to oversell the xeno-necromancy too much IMO sometimes. Ynnari help was a factor, but don't forget the fundamental basis for his resurrection was Mechanicus technology. In any case, I think Morden's case still stands, it doesn't matter whether or not it's "blasphemy" or not how he got revived (not to mention no one knows how he came back besides a very small circle of people). He's a primarch, through and through.

And if he was actually a thrall of Yvraine set up by the Ynnead to take control of the Imperium how would things look any different?

He probably wouldn't be able to commune with the Emperor for one thing, or at the very least, the Emperor would have purged the Ynnari influence on him when they met face to face. Either way, it doesn't change that he IS a primarch. It's not like his resurrection fundamentally changed his biology or being.

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

er ok.... But they didn't - because he is not.... he is a Primarch. Thats what he is and thats how he is perceived - there is not a difference.

That is only a matter of perspective. Sure he is a Primarch. He is also resurrected by a xeno-necromancy. Whether one considers that blasphemy is a matter of opinion. Personally I find it rather implausible that a puritan Inquisitor and a devout Sister of Battle would not see xeno-necromancy and heretech resurrecting a saint blasphemy, but that's how they wrote it. For example if Satanists would start resurrecting dead saints by necromancy, I really doubt Catholics would just declare it a miracle and be cool with it.

And what religious organisations tell to people has very little to do with how things are, and very much to do what those organisations want people to believe. It is about control and power, especially in a dark and dystopic setting like 40K.

Have you read the Campaign packs? You seem to be ingoring the entire story. Why?

Its not a "Devout Sister of Battle" - Its Saint Celestine on a mission from her God, - she is (as normal) told what to do by the Emperor himself to use the Xenos for His purpose.

The Inquisitor is massively suspcious of the Xenos, and both RG AND St Celestine as she is out of touch by a few hundred years having been a captive of a certain Necron collector (who has has her mind shackled)

It takes her till the end of the entire campign to believe.

If God sent a incarnate angel to Earth to tell people what to do - fairly sure the cathloics (at the very least) would believe - this is not a question of having to rely on Fiath - GOD sends an actual ANGEL.

Its like Pratchet said - its hard to be an atheist if the actual Gods come round and throw bricks through your window!

 Grimskul wrote:

He probably wouldn't be able to commune with the Emperor for one thing, or at the very least, the Emperor would have purged the Ynnari influence on him when they met face to face. Either way, it doesn't change that he IS a primarch. It's not like his resurrection fundamentally changed his biology or being.

Assuming that Emperor actually communes with anyone and is not just a vegetable. People hearing voices in their heads is not proof of supernatural influence. Or maybe Guilliman thinks it is Emperor talking to him while it actually is Ynnead? Also, Magnus and Mortarion are Primarchs too, but for some reason the Imperium is not that cool with them...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Its not a "Devout Sister of Battle" - Its Saint Celestine on a mission from her God, - she is (as normal) told what to do by the Emperor himself to use the Xenos for His purpose.

And you don't think that the Emperor literally telling people that he is personally cool with xenos necromancy don't pretty heavily damage the central themes of the setting?

 Crimson wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

He probably wouldn't be able to commune with the Emperor for one thing, or at the very least, the Emperor would have purged the Ynnari influence on him when they met face to face. Either way, it doesn't change that he IS a primarch. It's not like his resurrection fundamentally changed his biology or being.

Assuming that Emperor actually communes with anyone and is not just a vegetable. People hearing voices in their heads is not proof of supernatural influence. Or maybe Guilliman thinks it is Emperor talking to him while it actually is Ynnead? Also, Magnus and Mortarion are Primarchs too, but for some reason the Imperium is not that cool with them...

Ok now you are getting a bit silly - The Emperor speaks to people - thats confirmed by GW in and out of universe.

And you don't think that the Emperor literally telling people that he is personally cool with xenos necromancy don't pretty heavily damage the central themes of the setting?

No - The Emperor is a hypocrite - we all know this. The Imperium is based on dark contradicitons - remenber the job of some of the most Elite marines it has is to aquire Xenos tech to allow the Ad MEch to reverse engineer it.

 Crimson wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

He probably wouldn't be able to commune with the Emperor for one thing, or at the very least, the Emperor would have purged the Ynnari influence on him when they met face to face. Either way, it doesn't change that he IS a primarch. It's not like his resurrection fundamentally changed his biology or being.

Assuming that Emperor actually communes with anyone and is not just a vegetable. People hearing voices in their heads is not proof of supernatural influence. Or maybe Guilliman thinks it is Emperor talking to him while it actually is Ynnead? Also, Magnus and Mortarion are Primarchs too, but for some reason the Imperium is not that cool with them...

No, it's quite explicit in Dark Imperium that the Emperor communicated to Roboute Guilliman when he entered the chamber with the Golden Throne. It's why he's so demoralized internally after meeting with him. If he wanted it to go the way he wanted and was just going full wacko, I highly doubt he'd hallucinate that. Here's the link for it by the way: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D_lnzgLEe3taX24SodvfCSd2VGsHcIgwQpJ5jmIMuLs/edit

Are you just going on conjecture rather than fact at this point?

 Grimskul wrote:

No, it's quite explicit in Dark Imperium that the Emperor communicated to Roboute Guilliman when he entered the chamber with the Golden Throne. It's why he's so demoralized internally after meeting with him. If he wanted it to go the way he wanted and was just going full wacko, I highly doubt he'd hallucinate that. Here's the link for it by the way: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D_lnzgLEe3taX24SodvfCSd2VGsHcIgwQpJ5jmIMuLs/edit

Are you just going on conjecture rather than fact at this point?

We know that, as readers, people in the setting don't know that. Any reasonable Inquisitor would be insanely suspicious of a xenos plot.

 Crimson wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

No, it's quite explicit in Dark Imperium that the Emperor communicated to Roboute Guilliman when he entered the chamber with the Golden Throne. It's why he's so demoralized internally after meeting with him. If he wanted it to go the way he wanted and was just going full wacko, I highly doubt he'd hallucinate that. Here's the link for it by the way: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D_lnzgLEe3taX24SodvfCSd2VGsHcIgwQpJ5jmIMuLs/edit

Are you just going on conjecture rather than fact at this point?

We know that, as readers, people in the setting don't know that. Any reasonable Inquisitor would be insanely suspicious of a xenos plot.

Your going round and round in circles with nothing to back it up.

WHY would they - Gods own Angel says he is ok, God says he is good, No-One knows or has said otherwise. Again you are forgetting or repeadely ignoirgn that many of the Inqusitors are religious fanatics or at least beievers.

Again a Angel direct from GOD said to them he is the geniuine article.

 Mr Morden wrote:


Your going round and round in circles with nothing to back it up.

WHY would they - Gods own Angel says he is ok, God says he is good, No-One knows or has said otherwise. Again you are forgetting or repeadely ignoirgn that many of the Inqusitors are religious fanatics or at least beievers.

Again a Angel direct from GOD said to them he is the geniuine article.

Said 'angel' tells them to trust a xeno-witch. That goes completely against ten thousand years of ingrained doctrine.

Furthermore, the whole story is nauseatingly simplistic. Every potential complication is just brushed away. God says Guilliman is awesome, he is so shiny and everyone loves him. It is gak storytelling.
Did you ever read the Inquisitor (the old gamebook)? The whole set up is that different factions within the Inquisition are battling about what is the 'truth' about the Emperor; what is his will. If we are now in a situation where the Emperor just tells people what he thinks that undermines that whole ambiguity. But there is place for such things in the current fluff.

 Crimson wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

No, it's quite explicit in Dark Imperium that the Emperor communicated to Roboute Guilliman when he entered the chamber with the Golden Throne. It's why he's so demoralized internally after meeting with him. If he wanted it to go the way he wanted and was just going full wacko, I highly doubt he'd hallucinate that. Here's the link for it by the way: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D_lnzgLEe3taX24SodvfCSd2VGsHcIgwQpJ5jmIMuLs/edit

Are you just going on conjecture rather than fact at this point?

We know that, as readers, people in the setting don't know that. Any reasonable Inquisitor would be insanely suspicious of a xenos plot.

But no one outside of Greyfax, Celestine, the Ynnari, and the UM know about the details of his resurrection. Even if Inquisitors were (rightfully) suspicious, if he has the backing of the Custodes (whom even the Inquisitors must defer to) and as Morden said, a bloody Saint of the Emperor, why would anyone question him? None of his actions have merited accusations of treason or heresy either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Your going round and round in circles with nothing to back it up.

WHY would they - Gods own Angel says he is ok, God says he is good, No-One knows or has said otherwise. Again you are forgetting or repeadely ignoirgn that many of the Inqusitors are religious fanatics or at least beievers.

Again a Angel direct from GOD said to them he is the geniuine article.

Said 'angel' tells them to trust a xeno-witch. That goes completely against ten thousand years of ingrained doctrine.

Furthermore, the whole story is nauseatingly simplistic. Every potential complication is just brushed away. God says Guilliman is awesome, he is so shiny and everyone loves him. It is gak storytelling.
Did you ever read the Inquisitor (the old gamebook)? The whole set up is that different factions within the Inquisition are battling about what is the 'truth' about the Emperor; what is his will. If we are now in a situation where the Emperor just tells people what he thinks that undermines that whole ambiguity. But there is place for such things in the current fluff.

I can understand your frustration with his return, but fundamentally there's nothing wrong with a Primarch returning, at least the way he did. It's not like the Imperium never had a Primarch lead it, the complications that arise is the Great Rift, cleaving the Imperium in two, and Roboute's own horror of what the Imperium's become. There's a lot of potential in him attempting some pursuit of reform and having to deal with rotting edifices that have been built up, like the Ecclesiarchy. He's already butted heads with Inquisitors that cover up the Imperium's past with his attempt to revive his version of Remembrancers that are trying to catalogue a relatively accurate timeline for the Imperium that has been out of whack for 10k years.

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Your going round and round in circles with nothing to back it up.

WHY would they - Gods own Angel says he is ok, God says he is good, No-One knows or has said otherwise. Again you are forgetting or repeadely ignoirgn that many of the Inqusitors are religious fanatics or at least beievers.

Again a Angel direct from GOD said to them he is the geniuine article.

Said 'angel' tells them to trust a xeno-witch. That goes completely against ten thousand years of ingrained doctrine.

Furthermore, the whole story is nauseatingly simplistic. Every potential complication is just brushed away. God says Guilliman is awesome, he is so shiny and everyone loves him. It is gak storytelling.
Did you ever read the Inquisitor (the old gamebook)? The whole set up is that different factions within the Inquisition are battling about what is the 'truth' about the Emperor; what is his will. If we are now in a situation where the Emperor just tells people what he thinks that undermines that whole ambiguity. But there is place for such things in the current fluff.

Dude at about this point given you're not a stupid individual, I'm beginning to suspect you're being deliberatly obtuse.

No one, outside of Cawl, Greyfax, Celestine and some Ultramarines know the Eldar where involved. So all this "Xenos necromancy" you keep babbling about isn't something anyone knows expect people who have already accepted him

BrianDavion wrote:

Dude at about this point given you're not a stupid individual, I'm beginning to suspect you're being deliberatly obtuse.

No one, outside of Cawl, Greyfax, Celestine and some Ultramarines know the Eldar where involved. So all this "Xenos necromancy" you keep babbling about isn't something anyone knows expect people who have already accepted him

Yes. GW wrote those people accepting that stuff, but they shouldn't have. I am critiquing the writing, do you understand that? They brushed a potentially interesting point of conflict under the carpet in favour of the unquestioned shiny saviour narrative.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

He probably wouldn't be able to commune with the Emperor for one thing, or at the very least, the Emperor would have purged the Ynnari influence on him when they met face to face. Either way, it doesn't change that he IS a primarch. It's not like his resurrection fundamentally changed his biology or being.

Assuming that Emperor actually communes with anyone and is not just a vegetable. People hearing voices in their heads is not proof of supernatural influence. Or maybe Guilliman thinks it is Emperor talking to him while it actually is Ynnead? Also, Magnus and Mortarion are Primarchs too, but for some reason the Imperium is not that cool with them...

Ok now you are getting a bit silly - The Emperor speaks to people - thats confirmed by GW in and out of universe.

And you don't think that the Emperor literally telling people that he is personally cool with xenos necromancy don't pretty heavily damage the central themes of the setting?

No - The Emperor is a hypocrite - we all know this. The Imperium is based on dark contradicitons - remenber the job of some of the most Elite marines it has is to aquire Xenos tech to allow the Ad MEch to reverse engineer it.

Bingo!

I'm increasingly of the opinion through this thread that Crimson's real issue is that they've made some big assumptions about the lore that are not actually true. Complaining about stuff contradicting the lore when it's not at all, it's just contradicting their perception of the lore.

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Dude at about this point given you're not a stupid individual, I'm beginning to suspect you're being deliberatly obtuse.

No one, outside of Cawl, Greyfax, Celestine and some Ultramarines know the Eldar where involved. So all this "Xenos necromancy" you keep babbling about isn't something anyone knows expect people who have already accepted him

Yes. GW wrote those people accepting that stuff, but they shouldn't have. I am critiquing the writing, do you understand that? They brushed a potentially interesting point of conflict under the carpet in favour of the unquestioned shiny saviour narrative.

Why wouldn't they accept it?

Cawl like many of the radical tech priests seems to regularly use/ consorts with Xenos. No reason for him to take issue with an eldar being in the room Celestine is a living saint who is carrying out the emperors will which clearly includes getting the IOM one of it's best generals back. The Ultra Marines have no reason to turn on their own Primarch and have in the past worked with Eldar/Tau when the stakes were high enough. Only Greyfax has any reason to not be ok with the Eldar and she would be a crappy witness if she did say anything. This is also assuming that anyone that witnessed this actually understand exactly what happened. Sure they knew the eldar were in the room but how many would really understand what Yvraine did? They would probably assume that it was all Cawl and I doubt he's not gonna take the credit.

What part of 'it makes a boring story' you did not understand? The Inquisition, the Sisters and Marines all normally absolutely loathe the xenos. It would have been very easy to write a seed of that conflict there.

 Crimson wrote:
What part of 'it makes a boring story' you did not understand? The Inquisition, the Sisters and Marines all normally absolutely loathe the xenos. It would have been very easy to write a seed of that conflict there.

we understand... and think it would have been a lame story. "ohh look the very future of humanity is threatened, but these small minded morons are too busy infighting.. yawn"

seriously, people infighting like morons when the fething future of humanity is at stake ISN'T a good story, yeah I know Game of Thrones does it but some of us think GRRM is an over rated writer

And again yes the IOM is not a big fan of xenos but in many stories have worked with the Eldar especially when fighting Chaos. Also stop with the blanket all members of a faction act the same way. The Ultramarines are know for being pragmatic, Cawl is by your logic a heretic (to be fair though he kinda is) and Celestine isn't just a battle sister, she's essential an demon of the God of Order. Again, the only person who would flip out just because eldar are in the room is Greyfax and at the time, she is tempted to do so. She is however not an idiot and realizes shooting Bobby G, the dirty Xenos or Celestine is only going to get her killed so she holds her tongue.

Your essentially acting like teaming up with the Eldar never ever happens, when it's actually a fairly common scenario.

That's probably the attitude that most people who don't like what Guilliman is doing are going to take. Any overt move against him would be crushed because even the factions or people who don't like him have other reasons to not work together.

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Dude at about this point given you're not a stupid individual, I'm beginning to suspect you're being deliberatly obtuse.

No one, outside of Cawl, Greyfax, Celestine and some Ultramarines know the Eldar where involved. So all this "Xenos necromancy" you keep babbling about isn't something anyone knows expect people who have already accepted him

Yes. GW wrote those people accepting that stuff, but they shouldn't have. I am critiquing the writing, do you understand that? They brushed a potentially interesting point of conflict under the carpet in favour of the unquestioned shiny saviour narrative.

"Sigh"

I asked if you have read the source material -you obviously have not and have no interest in doing so have ignored all the points we have made about the actual story.

We get it, you hate RG - well done - point made.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
What part of 'it makes a boring story' you did not understand? The Inquisition, the Sisters and Marines all normally absolutely loathe the xenos. It would have been very easy to write a seed of that conflict there.

we understand... and think it would have been a lame story. "ohh look the very future of humanity is threatened, but these small minded morons are too busy infighting.. yawn"

seriously, people infighting like morons when the fething future of humanity is at stake ISN'T a good story, yeah I know Game of Thrones does it but some of us think GRRM is an over rated writer

That indeed would have been way better story and would have much better fit the nihilistic nature of the 40K lore. Or at least what 40K lore used to be... As for GRRM, his stories seem to be pretty popular so I really don't think emulating some of that would have been a bad idea. Certainly way better than the unquestioned shiny saviour narrative that we got.

But yeah, you actually summarised the important point of disconnect, if you think that 'small minded morons infighting and endangering the humanity' is not cool but big damn noble heroes are, then we're not going to agree. We fundamentally disagree what 40K should be about.

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
What part of 'it makes a boring story' you did not understand? The Inquisition, the Sisters and Marines all normally absolutely loathe the xenos. It would have been very easy to write a seed of that conflict there.

we understand... and think it would have been a lame story. "ohh look the very future of humanity is threatened, but these small minded morons are too busy infighting.. yawn"

seriously, people infighting like morons when the fething future of humanity is at stake ISN'T a good story, yeah I know Game of Thrones does it but some of us think GRRM is an over rated writer

That indeed would have been way better story and would have much better fit the nihilistic nature of the 40K lore. Or at least what 40K lore used to be... As for GRRM, his stories seem to be pretty popular so I really don't think emulating some of that would have been a bad idea. Certainly way better than the unquestioned shiny saviour narrative that we got.

But yeah, you actually summarised the important point of disconnect, if you think that 'small minded morons infighting and endangering the humanity' is not cool but big damn noble heroes are, then we're not going to agree. We fundamentally disagree what 40K should be about.

you keep insisting that it's eaither full fledged infighting with everyone hating each other or "noble hero superfriends" and it must be one or the other. I belive there is a middle ground.

thing is, we've gotten very few looks at Primaris Marines so far, a few codex entries and a tinsy number of novels. codices aren't really good for "subtle" (and despite everyone claiming GOT is a good example of politics, it in many ways is an example of what happens when playing the political game backfires) in terms of post Gathering Storm novels we've gotten..

Blood of Ix, Conquest of honour and Iron, Dark Imperium, Ruins of Prosperio, War of Secrets, Devestation of Baal. Watcher's on the throne.

I have no read Blood of Ix and Conquest of Honor and Iron, but Dark Imperium Ruins of Prosperio, War of Secrets Devestation of Baal and Watchers on the throne ALL had some degee of resistance to Gulliman.

BrianDavion wrote:

you keep insisting that it's eaither full fledged infighting with everyone hating each other or "noble hero superfriends" and it must be one or the other. I belive there is a middle ground.

Sure, It doesn't need to be full blown civil war, but now we are so firmly in the "noble hero superfriends" territory that the middle ground is not even in the sight.

(and despite everyone claiming GOT is a good example of politics, it in many ways is an example of what happens when playing the political game backfires)

And that results an interesting situation! Let it backfire!

in terms of post Gathering Storm novels we've gotten..

Blood of Ix, Conquest of honour and Iron, Dark Imperium, Ruins of Prosperio, War of Secrets, Devestation of Baal. Watcher's on the throne.

I have no read Blood of Ix and Conquest of Honor and Iron, but Dark Imperium Ruins of Prosperio, War of Secrets Devestation of Baal and Watchers on the throne ALL had some degee of resistance to Gulliman.

I really don't think some mild grumbling counts as resistance. It needs to be something substantial.

As I said, I don't mean there needs to be a full blown 'Ultramarian Heresy' (though that would be interesting!) but now all avenues of real friction are just squished. As people have pointed out, guilliman is a Primarch and a Saint, so naturally many people are going to defer to him. For this exact reason he needs some tarnish on his halo, so that he can be credibly challenged. Now the story is written so that a Living Saint, the Custodes, and Emperor himself just directly back him and he is given the highest office in the realm. And worst of all, the thing that could reasonably cause some serious doubt, the xenos involvement is not known, so that doesn't matter. They really could have allowed some nuance and subtlety. All direct involved from the Emperor should have obviously been avoided. It is a big part of the lore that his will is unknown and it is constantly debated and fought over by the Inquisition, the Ecclesiarchy and the High Lords. And the xeno plot should be known. I don't mean that the High Lords should have instantly declared him excommunicate traitoris for it, but it would have allowed some genuine doubt. He could have also been a high ranking military commander leading crusades without also being the highest ranking High Lord. It would have allowed interesting dynamic where the Lords of Terra try to keep Guilliman busy and please him enough that he won't cross the Rubicon while trying to guard their own power. Now he is basically the President-Pope Superman, with all the important players backing him. I really don't understand how people can find this interesting.

except I don't think he does need tarnish to his Halo. the Imperium of man has eneugh problems going for it that and endless sucession of little civil conflicts against Gulliman wouldn't IMHO add anything intreasting.

BrianDavion wrote:
except I don't think he does need tarnish to his Halo. the Imperium of man has eneugh problems going for it that and endless sucession of little civil conflicts against Gulliman wouldn't IMHO add anything intreasting.

So we fundamentally disagree. "The Imperium is besieged by all sorts of horrors, but big damns space marine heroes beat them back" is the tired storyline, and it doesn't become any more interesting if the space marine heroes are even bigger and shinier.

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
except I don't think he does need tarnish to his Halo. the Imperium of man has eneugh problems going for it that and endless sucession of little civil conflicts against Gulliman wouldn't IMHO add anything intreasting.

So we fundamentally disagree. "The Imperium is besieged by all sorts of horrors, but big damns space marine heroes beat them back" is the tired storyline, and it doesn't become any more interesting if the space marine heroes are even bigger and shinier.

Yep we disagree with you.

Marines are over done - yes - does it make a difference that the figurehead for the Imperium is a Primarch - no not really.

Does he wear shiny armour - er yeah but so do the Marines, the Custodes, the Sisters of Battle, quite a few Regiments of the Guard, various Rogue Traders, Inquisitors - its an Imperial thing.

Also RG has not beat the Chaos forces back - he is barely holding his own. as you should know,

Seriously can you answer the question - have you actually read any of the recent lore - it certainly does not appear so,

or are just expressing your continuing hatred of one character which could have its own thread - "Why I hate RG".

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

you keep insisting that it's eaither full fledged infighting with everyone hating each other or "noble hero superfriends" and it must be one or the other. I belive there is a middle ground.

Sure, It doesn't need to be full blown civil war, but now we are so firmly in the "noble hero superfriends" territory that the middle ground is not even in the sight.

No we’re not. The factional differences and disputes that existed before the Gathering Storm are still there, with the addition of all the things I mentioned before. It’s just that they’re doing it in the shadows while Guilliman isn’t looking.

If you want more obvious infighting, then do it. Your models, your story.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

you keep insisting that it's eaither full fledged infighting with everyone hating each other or "noble hero superfriends" and it must be one or the other. I belive there is a middle ground.

Sure, It doesn't need to be full blown civil war, but now we are so firmly in the "noble hero superfriends" territory that the middle ground is not even in the sight.

No we’re not. The factional differences and disputes that existed before the Gathering Storm are still there, with the addition of all the things I mentioned before. It’s just that they’re doing it in the shadows while Guilliman isn’t looking.

If you want more obvious infighting, then do it. Your models, your story.

He is not listening and/or not reading our replies fully.

I have read the lore, I have read your replies. Guilliman is beating the enemies back same way this always happens. There is this biggest threat ever: Tyranids are unstoppable will eat the galaxy, but they won't, Abaddons Black Crusade will break the Imperium, but it won't, the Necrons will overwhelm the humanity, but they won't. I don't mean that the Imperium should be destroyed, merely that the conflicts with the foes without are ultimately way less interesting than with foes within.

And this 'yes there is conflict, really' is meaningless. Grumbling behind Guilliman's back is meaningless. He holds all the cards and seems to be sane and competent. As a result the Imperium is more unified and more coordinated than in thousands of years. This is boring direction.

 Crimson wrote:
I have read the lore, I have read your replies. Guilliman is beating the enemies back same way this always happens. There is this biggest threat ever: Tyranids are unstoppable will eat the galaxy, but they won't, Abaddons Black Crusade will break the Imperium, but it won't, the Necrons will overwhelm the humanity, but they won't. I don't mean that the Imperium should be destroyed, merely that the conflicts with the foes without are ultimately way less interesting than with foes within.

And this 'yes there is conflict, really' is meaningless. Grumbling behind Guilliman's back is meaningless. He holds all the cards and seems to be sane and competent. As a result the Imperium is more unified and more coordinated than in thousands of years. This is boring direction.

I fundamentally disagree with that premise. The fact that someone competent is in charge for a change is a really interesting new direction for the Imperium.

I fully expect things to go wrong down the line, which will have all the more impact because the Imperium could have taken a meaningful turn here.

It's a much more satisfying arc than all grimdark all the time would be, again and again.

But Crimson, if any of those xenos or chaos enemies actually win, there is no more W40k game, which is clearly never going to happen!

Abaddon's latest Black Crusade was not a final victory, but it has had huge ramifications for the whole galaxy. I was somewhat disappoinated at how the Tyranids were driven back from Baal, but its survival came at a huge cost.

There is dissent and sources of possible dissent brewing against Roboute Guilliman. There is still huge distrust in RG of Cawl, Calgar resents his new position, the Ecclesiarchy could easily turn on RG or vice versa, and so on. But these things are more interesting if they build up over time than if they are shoved down out throats at the first opportunity. The scene is being set, and whilst some things will be resolved, I am sure others will emerge and some of those being set up will escalate.

For example, how do you know that there will be no more appearances of Greyfax, and that she won't ultimately denounce RG and regret not doing so sooner?

 Fifty wrote:
But Crimson, if any of those xenos or chaos enemies actually win, there is no more W40k game, which is clearly never going to happen!

Abaddon's latest Black Crusade was not a final victory, but it has had huge ramifications for the whole galaxy. I was somewhat disappoinated at how the Tyranids were driven back from Baal, but its survival came at a huge cost.

I don't mean those enemy faction should win, at least to the extent that it would mean the destruction of the Imperium. I merely mean that those conflicts are really not that interesting itself, and the narrative is not improved by a bigger space marine hero fighting against a bigger daemon. Have you noticed that how in many zombie and monster films the focus is really on the internal dynamic of the group of people fighting against the monsters? In such films in addition to the external threat, there is also an internal one. The people tun on each other or there is some backstabbing donkey-cave in the group. The story is way more interesting that way, instead of merely being about how the heroes beat the monsters.

There is dissent and sources of possible dissent brewing against Roboute Guilliman. There is still huge distrust in RG of Cawl, Calgar resents his new position, the Ecclesiarchy could easily turn on RG or vice versa, and so on. But these things are more interesting if they build up over time than if they are shoved down out throats at the first opportunity. The scene is being set, and whilst some things will be resolved, I am sure others will emerge and some of those being set up will escalate.

Such developments would obviously be welcome, and would alter my assessment of the situation. I can only comment on how the story has been presented thus far.

For example, how do you know that there will be no more appearances of Greyfax, and that she won't ultimately denounce RG and regret not doing so sooner?

Yes, I'd love that. But have you noticed how there has been several pages of people saying how an Inquisitor absolutely cannot do such a thing?