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Voss wrote:
The big question isn't if Custodes or Astartes can mess about with Guard ranks and command authority, but if they'd notice or bother. General opinion of novels, codexes and other background material is they can, but generally don't as long as the guard units are pointed in the correct direction, shooting enemies and soaking fire. If they aren't doing that, the Marines may not even wait for the Commissars to cull the officer corps, they may just preemptively do it themselves. Most chapters won't care if a general or a lieutenant is giving the advance order, as long as someone is giving it and the troops are obeying.

Marines don't have the authority to execute guard officers, or take command of a guard regiment. Most guard commanders will subordinate themselves to a Space Marine commander in the same theater, but that isn't necessarily a given. Conflicts HAVE happened before where a SM contingent and a Guard regiment/division have been given conflicting orders and get in each other's way, or even start shooting at each other because they see the other as "obstructing". Usually it takes the commissariat or an inquisitor to sort out the mess.

I remember one bit of lore where a Guard officer tries to take command of a Dark Angels contingent because their commander got killed and the officer in question was put in charge of the planetary defense by some high up administratum official or something. The Marines didn't like it and didn't want to listen to him, until Azrael himself showed up and chewed them out for being too prideful before taking command himself and making the IG officer his second in command.

w1zard wrote:

Marines don't have the authority to execute guard officers, or take command of a guard regiment. Most guard commanders will subordinate themselves to a Space Marine commander in the same theater, but that isn't necessarily a given. Conflicts HAVE happened before where a SM contingent and a Guard regiment/division have been given conflicting orders and get in each other's way, or even start shooting at each other because they see the other as "obstructing". Usually it takes the commissariat or an inquisitor to sort out the mess.

I remember one bit of lore where a Guard officer tries to take command of a Dark Angels contingent because their commander got killed and the officer in question was put in charge of the planetary defense by some high up administratum official or something. The Marines didn't like it and didn't want to listen to him, until Azrael himself showed up and chewed them out for being too prideful before taking command himself and making the IG officer his second in command.

Warmaster Slaydo did had under his command Imperial Fists and White Scars. Yarrick was also the highest authority at the eve of the Third War for Armageddon. He even stared downed a Space Marine Captain who was unhappy of his assignment. Then again, he's Yarrick, the Emperor probably calls him sir.

Yarrick had command ceded to him by the respective chapter masters present (Principly led by Helbrecht) so there was a single command authority. They didn't have to do that.

The Guard can't command Astartes and the Astartes can't command Guard. However, there are two exceptions:

Guard can command astartes where the astartes are ordered to obey - if the Chapter master tells the captain/sergeant "you're attached to this Warmaster/Rogue Trader's forces". This tends to be 'by name' though and the right of command doesn't filter down.

Astartes can't command guard but specific astartes often do. This is because a lot of peers of the imperium have multiple legal 'hats' - most are also planetary lord commanders, which makes them commanders of the world's PDF (if it has one, like the Macragge defence auxilia) and nominally gives them command rank in the astra militarum. Again, that belongs to either the chapter master or the captain with the 'master of the domains' title, and isn't delegatable, because the legal identity who has it is Lord Macragge, not Chapter Master of the Ultramarines.

There is a lot of background material produced for 40k, not all of it is good or makes sense. Some, as in this case, cross the line of 'suspension of disbelief' where you just read about it, and say "....nah"

Can we expect someone would have risen to the rank of Warmaster, with all of the favour-pulling, backstabbing, and awful behaviour that we see when people rise to positions of power in authoritarian regimes (and I can't even imagine what it would take to get to that rank of 'super-Caesar' in the Imperium's army) and then to be taken out in that simply?

I think far more likely, the Commissar would have fared fairly similarly to the one in the Hunt for Red October book (if you've ever read it). An unfortunate slip, and banged his head on the dining table. Very unlucky, let's write to the family and let them know he died a hero of the Imperium.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
.

The commissar is the type a person who is like what you are doing is against the Emperor so out you go etc, ...

... and the subject of their justice has been picked out for a purpose by one of that same Emperor's holy guard.

If Gabriel descended from the heavens to tell the Spanish Inquisition to stop burning that heretic because he had a purpose for him, I don't think the priests would have bothered to quibble.

 Pacific wrote:
There is a lot of background material produced for 40k, not all of it is good or makes sense. Some, as in this case, cross the line of 'suspension of disbelief' where you just read about it, and say "....nah"

Can we expect someone would have risen to the rank of Warmaster, with all of the favour-pulling, backstabbing, and awful behaviour that we see when people rise to positions of power in authoritarian regimes (and I can't even imagine what it would take to get to that rank of 'super-Caesar' in the Imperium's army) and then to be taken out in that simply?

I think far more likely, the Commissar would have fared fairly similarly to the one in the Hunt for Red October book (if you've ever read it). An unfortunate slip, and banged his head on the dining table. Very unlucky, let's write to the family and let them know he died a hero of the Imperium.

Or like the current fluff talks about in terms of people opposing Gulliman it was a simple matter of Custodes enforcing their will on an unwilling military that then happily popped the guy the moment they looked away.

The commissar's job is to kill anyone they think is failing at their job inexcusably. Anyone. Governors go down like flies in front of commissars in the lore, what makes a war master appointed by an outside power after being judged a coward by the internal power structure safe?

I feel the Gabriel comparison needs more weight placed on it.

Remember, Commissars are also religious fanatics, fully indoctrinated during the education.

A Custodes very much is like an Angel speaking to a True Believer. Their mere existence is somewhat beyond mythical, especially in a Galaxy where the vast, vast majority of the populace will never see, let alone be spoken to by even a relatively humble Astartes.

A Custodian is the chosen bodyguard of The Emperor of Mankind. If like a Commissar you're a true believer, how do you even start to gainsay that? How do you call them out? In what possible way can you say 'but I know best' in that situation? They are literally speaking with The Emperor's Voice. Because unlike everyone else, they've actually seen him. Call him a liar, and I'm pretty sure your own charges, let alone the Ministorum will have you burned as a Heretic lickety split, with absolutely no comebacks from anyone of a right mind.

And whilst tongue in cheek, the Cain novels show a clear respect for the other departments within the Commissariat. A Custodes is the tippiest toppermost level. Hand picked and crafted by The Emperor himself. Immortal demi-gods so trusted they are Him On Earth's personal companions.

Go on. Tell him he's overruled. See what happens then. Here's a hint. He'll still do as he pleases, you just won't be around to see it.

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
There is a lot of background material produced for 40k, not all of it is good or makes sense. Some, as in this case, cross the line of 'suspension of disbelief' where you just read about it, and say "....nah"

Can we expect someone would have risen to the rank of Warmaster, with all of the favour-pulling, backstabbing, and awful behaviour that we see when people rise to positions of power in authoritarian regimes (and I can't even imagine what it would take to get to that rank of 'super-Caesar' in the Imperium's army) and then to be taken out in that simply?

I think far more likely, the Commissar would have fared fairly similarly to the one in the Hunt for Red October book (if you've ever read it). An unfortunate slip, and banged his head on the dining table. Very unlucky, let's write to the family and let them know he died a hero of the Imperium.

Or like the current fluff talks about in terms of people opposing Gulliman it was a simple matter of Custodes enforcing their will on an unwilling military that then happily popped the guy the moment they looked away.

The commissar's job is to kill anyone they think is failing at their job inexcusably. Anyone. Governors go down like flies in front of commissars in the lore, what makes a war master appointed by an outside power after being judged a coward by the internal power structure safe?

My thoughts on it are what might work in theory (i.e. "You're a traitor, I'm going to execute you" *BANG*) wouldn't necessarily hold true in practice.

The rank Warmaster is pretty much as high as you can get, other than perhaps the High Lords of Terra. There's a description on the Lexicanum page which gives some sense of scale:

"I have at my command an entire battle group of the Imperial Guard. Fifty regiments, including specialised drop troops, stealthers, mechanised formations, armoured companies and mobile artillery.
Over half a million fighting men and thirty thousand tank and artillery pieces are mine to command.
Emperor show mercy to the fool who stands against me, for I shall not."
Warmaster Demetrius, Salonika Crusade, 733.M38

In terms of historical (real-life) parallel I would perhaps liken it to something like Caesar, and the troops under his command invading Gaul, or in more contemporary terms someone like MacArthur in command of the American contingent in Korea. What links these two individuals was the tremendous resources at their disposal in terms of military power. And, that they made the political powers back home extremely worried that they would continue to use their power responsibly. One of the biggest concerns was that once given that power, they would turn it to their own ends and march back to Rome (which was a massive concern of the senate). In fact, I'd say that this was almost certainly some of the thinking behind the background when the Horus Heresy was written, armies heading off under their own steam happened constantly in history and is a pretty standard trope.

So - imagine Caesar's armies x 1000, spread over a star system, the ability to destroy worlds under the command of someone with an ego to match. For someone that has fought tooth and claw to get that much power, back-stabbing other vociferous individuals along the way, are they going to let some guy with a big-rimmed cap and stick up his bottom come up and execute him?
They wouldn't get anywhere near him. If the Commissar got beyond the 'docking accident' with the Warmasters ship, I'm imagining what kind of 'house-hold guard' they would have: gene-hanced, monstrous bodyguards armed with the best tech and who kill on command, if they got past the laser defence grid (or servitor-controlled weaponry) that lead to his inner sanctum. No doubt the WM himself would have some Jokaero device (with a nerve weapon or the like- very handy when picking off rivals who tend to have 'heart attacks' at state dinners), or some kind of displacement/warp field device if anyone actually managed to get close enough to him, within his domain, to take a shot.

I'm not saying the Commissars are below the rank of a WM, a commander or whomever. But, you have to try and imagine what kind of coterie a Warmaster would have around them, second to none within the Imperium, what hard and utterly ruthless bastards they would have to be to get to that position, and then the practical application of how anyone would get near them to execute them for some previous transgression.

Grim dumb vs. Grimdark? I think they're synonymous.

A guardsman can be executed for not having ha damn uplifting primer with him. Yeah, there could never be a situatuion when it was impossible to hold onto that damn thing in the middle of a battle, it could never be lost thru unavoidable circumstances.

But hey, the commissar has his quota...

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
A guardsman can be executed for not having ha damn uplifting primer with him. Yeah, there could never be a situatuion when it was impossible to hold onto that damn thing in the middle of a battle, it could never be lost thru unavoidable circumstances.

But hey, the commissar has his quota...

I find the whole execution over something small and stupid thing to be really overdone in SOME 40k stories. I have my copy of the infantryman's uplifting primer, and most of the stuff that can get you executed is harsh but makes sense. Wasting ammo? Abandoning your post? Striking a superior without cause? All of those things are very real crimes in the modern military and can get you into some deep gak... in a setting where manpower is plentiful and supplies are not, I can definitely see people getting shot or hung over stuff like that. There are some things that just go too far though, like getting executed for losing your helmet/equipment in battle or not saluting a superior. That is just a waste of resources (manpower and battle experience are resources) even when not considering the moral implications of executing soldiers over minor transgressions like that. Some stories do a wonderful job of avoiding that kind of childish "grimderp", others do not.

Losing your gear, not saluting and officer etc.. are all real crimes in armies past and present. The difference is that the Imperium really values you as nothing.

However, likely because of the forces of Chaos, they cannot resort to time honoured methods of punishment such as flogging which might have been your punishment a few hundred years ago for such crimes in the army. So they resort to the safest approach - just shoot you and move on.

Also lets not forget the rules are open to interpretation. Clearly a Commissar has to walk a fine line between the enforcement of Imperial Law and the maintenance of moral of the troops and army at large. Some will get this right and some will get it utterly wrong; and some will be in the middle. Basically the rule book gives them a huge latitude to work with, its up to the Commissar in person to interpret and act upon the law as they see fit.

You'd need to be a pretty veteran and well-connected commissar to interfere with a Warmaster's actions, but it's not totally unbelievable. No low-level commissar integrated with a company or regiment is going to be anywhere near him, but the Departmento Munitorum is definitely going to have someone stood behind him keeping an eye out ...

IIRC, in Wrath of Iron a Commissar imprisons a Lord General for disobeying the Iron Hands - I'll have to dig it out to double-check.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
You'd need to be a pretty veteran and well-connected commissar to interfere with a Warmaster's actions, but it's not totally unbelievable. No low-level commissar integrated with a company or regiment is going to be anywhere near him, but the Departmento Munitorum is definitely going to have someone stood behind him keeping an eye out ...

Yes.. but the point I was trying to make is that would he really allow someone to be stood behind him?

Generally people who have got to that rank (and I can't even imagine what it would be like within something like the Imperium, and at that rank) wouldn't allow anyone to get within knife-in-the-back range.

In any case, I think we've given this far more thought than (what was probably) a throwaway line written in the text.

Commissars are asigned to a certain function and while they can dispense discipline at the lower levels, they can't go up. A Commissar Lord would be asigned to the HQ of a large Imperial Guard army and be in charge of monitoring the higher ops, killing them or replacing them if need be. A Commissar assigned to a platoon leader cannot simply walk up to HQ and shoot a general.

beast_gts wrote:
IIRC, in Wrath of Iron a Commissar imprisons a Lord General for disobeying the Iron Hands - I'll have to dig it out to double-check.

That's stupid, SM's aren't in the chain of command of IG and they're perfectly allowed to ignore or disobey whatever the SM tells them.

 Bobthehero wrote:

beast_gts wrote:
IIRC, in Wrath of Iron a Commissar imprisons a Lord General for disobeying the Iron Hands - I'll have to dig it out to double-check.

That's stupid, SM's aren't in the chain of command of IG and they're perfectly allowed to ignore or disobey whatever the SM tells them.

You could argue they were imprisoned for ignoring the advice of a much more experienced leader therefore risking the war effort. But that's incredibly flimsy.

epronovost wrote:
Commissars are asigned to a certain function and while they can dispense discipline at the lower levels, they can't go up. A Commissar Lord would be asigned to the HQ of a large Imperial Guard army and be in charge of monitoring the higher ops, killing them or replacing them if need be. A Commissar assigned to a platoon leader cannot simply walk up to HQ and shoot a general.

It is similar to how in theory a newly minted Inquisitor could claim to answer only to the Emperor and demand the arrest and execution of all the High Lords of Terra. He wouldn't get very far and probably would soon meet with an unfortunate "accident".

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I feel the Gabriel comparison needs more weight placed on it.

Remember, Commissars are also religious fanatics, fully indoctrinated during the education.

A Custodes very much is like an Angel speaking to a True Believer. Their mere existence is somewhat beyond mythical, especially in a Galaxy where the vast, vast majority of the populace will never see, let alone be spoken to by even a relatively humble Astartes.

A Custodian is the chosen bodyguard of The Emperor of Mankind. If like a Commissar you're a true believer, how do you even start to gainsay that? How do you call them out? In what possible way can you say 'but I know best' in that situation? They are literally speaking with The Emperor's Voice. Because unlike everyone else, they've actually seen him. Call him a liar, and I'm pretty sure your own charges, let alone the Ministorum will have you burned as a Heretic lickety split, with absolutely no comebacks from anyone of a right mind.

And whilst tongue in cheek, the Cain novels show a clear respect for the other departments within the Commissariat. A Custodes is the tippiest toppermost level. Hand picked and crafted by The Emperor himself. Immortal demi-gods so trusted they are Him On Earth's personal companions.

Go on. Tell him he's overruled. See what happens then. Here's a hint. He'll still do as he pleases, you just won't be around to see it.

You really need to read 'the Grand Inquisitor' by Dostoyevsky...

pm713 wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

beast_gts wrote:
IIRC, in Wrath of Iron a Commissar imprisons a Lord General for disobeying the Iron Hands - I'll have to dig it out to double-check.

That's stupid, SM's aren't in the chain of command of IG and they're perfectly allowed to ignore or disobey whatever the SM tells them.

You could argue they were imprisoned for ignoring the advice of a much more experienced leader therefore risking the war effort. But that's incredibly flimsy.

Just had a quick look at the book, and he was a Commissar-General. From memory the Lord General refused to commit troops to support the Iron Hands (and their AdMech allies) so the Commissar-General locked him up and took command, but it was too late and the Iron Hands had taken heavy casualties and the AdMech had lost titans. The end of the book is the Purging of Contqual, when the Iron Hands killed one in every three Imperial citizens of the Contqual sector as punishment for allowing Chaos to take hold.

 Overread wrote:
Losing your gear, not saluting and officer etc.. are all real crimes in armies past and present. The difference is that the Imperium really values you as nothing.

However, likely because of the forces of Chaos, they cannot resort to time honoured methods of punishment such as flogging which might have been your punishment a few hundred years ago for such crimes in the army. So they resort to the safest approach - just shoot you and move on.

Also lets not forget the rules are open to interpretation. Clearly a Commissar has to walk a fine line between the enforcement of Imperial Law and the maintenance of moral of the troops and army at large. Some will get this right and some will get it utterly wrong; and some will be in the middle. Basically the rule book gives them a huge latitude to work with, its up to the Commissar in person to interpret and act upon the law as they see fit.

As someone who has immediate family in the military... Losing gear in battle will get you chewed out by your platoon sergeant, but it is not a military crime. Nor is failing to salute a superior officer, that might get you latrine duty.

You are confusing "infraction" with "crime".

Striking a superior officer or abandoning your post will get you a court-martial and time in Leavenworth.

If the Commissars were really determined to kill someone they would probably do it after his "special protection" had worn off, but this particular situation does seem a bit wonky. The guy was put in charge and won, which should excuse a lot of previous infractions. But maybe this would have made the Commissariat look weak or unschooled in tactics - so they had to kill him in order to keep up their own magic as unerring enforcers of the proper way?

Otherwise I see nothing not proper GrimDark in it. The IoM is a wasteful, slow-moving juggernaut that values adherence to dogma much higher than innovation or initiative. Only those cleared for it may employ innovation or initiative.

Been reading, and enjoying, 40k fluff since Rogue Trader and the Realm of Chaos books appeared in my local (long closed) hobby shop. I've seen codices come and go, some I really enjoyed, others totally anathema to what I envisioned in my mind of particular backgrounds. I just take it all with a grain of salt. ALL of them work when you just consider those poor Administratum scribes writing down all this information second, third, fourth hand. Unreliable Narrators, every damn one. One could even ponder what nuggets of truth spawned this imprecise information, and just make something up out of that.

Seeing all the fiction and fluff like this allows me to save my RAGE for rule changes...

w1zard wrote:
As someone who has immediate family in the military... Losing gear in battle will get you chewed out by your platoon sergeant, but it is not a military crime. Nor is failing to salute a superior officer, that might get you latrine duty.

You are confusing "infraction" with "crime".

Striking a superior officer or abandoning your post will get you a court-martial and time in Leavenworth.

The Imperium isn't modeled after current militaries. Failing to give due respect to an officer in the late nineteenth/early twentieth century armies that the IG are based on would have much harsher punishments, especially if you were already "undesirable" for one reason or another. Should be no surprise that the Guard takes that practice to the absolute extreme.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

w1zard wrote:
As someone who has immediate family in the military... Losing gear in battle will get you chewed out by your platoon sergeant, but it is not a military crime. Nor is failing to salute a superior officer, that might get you latrine duty.

You are confusing "infraction" with "crime".

Striking a superior officer or abandoning your post will get you a court-martial and time in Leavenworth.

The Imperium isn't modeled after current militaries. Failing to give due respect to an officer in the late nineteenth/early twentieth century armies that the IG are based on would have much harsher punishments, especially if you were already "undesirable" for one reason or another. Should be no surprise that the Guard takes that practice to the absolute extreme.

Not all guard regiments are based on 18th or 19th century armies. Cadians are absolutely based on modern militaries, Catachans are based on 1960's U.S army etc. Even the concept of the commissar is based off of the soviet military from the 1940s.

Even failing to salute an officer in the Napoleonic era would get you flogged at worst, not executed. The punishments in the uplifting primer are exaggerated for comedic effect, stop trying to pretend that some of those punishments are even close to having real life precedent.

EDIT:
The closest thing I could find to failure to salute that is a "crime" in the military is Article 89, but that looks like it is more geared toward disrespect toward an officer and insubordination.