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Bharring wrote:
Guardsmen > Marines
Obviously, because cheap always wins

Reapers > Devs
Obviously, because they're more elite

Custodes Captains vs SM Captains
Shining Spears vs SM Bike Squads

I woudn't necessarily agree that cheap almost always wins. Marines are just in a bad spot.

Ehh... in isolation those things are true-ish. I think the design mantra of Marines is that once they're mutually supporting each other, they can tip the scales.

Bharring wrote:
Guardsmen > Marines
Obviously, because cheap always wins

Reapers > Devs
Obviously, because they're more elite

Custodes Captains vs SM Captains
Shining Spears vs SM Bike Squads

I woudn't necessarily agree that cheap almost always wins. Marines are just in a bad spot.

Its not obvious as all that. But elites need some really fancy tech to compete. Like ignore all hit mods or universal 5+++. I dont care for custodes, marines, or most eldar. Eldar have a few super strong units with super strong rules and the rest just seem like marineesque victims.

Bharring wrote:
Guardsmen > Marines
Obviously, because cheap always wins

Reapers > Devs
Obviously, because they're more elite

Custodes Captains vs SM Captains
Shining Spears vs SM Bike Squads

I woudn't necessarily agree that cheap almost always wins. Marines are just in a bad spot.

Only all of those things are cheap, comparing to what rules they have. If reapers had the cost of soul burst, or ton of other buffs eldar can get build in to their cost, no one would be using them. Same with s spears. Custodes cpts vs normal cpts are hard to compare. Compare a normal sm cpt vs a BA DC smashammer cpt.

If you want to compare a custodes captin to something compare him to another elite marine HQ, the GK grand master. Then you will clearly see that the custodes gets the jetbike with all its rules, speed and shoting practicly for free.

But how can you discuss the relative value of appropriately-costed hordes vs appropriately-costed elites?

The logic itself boils down to "Appropriately-costed units should be roughly equally good as appropriately-costed units", which of course is tautological.

You're trying to fit a regression, then you're adjusting what you're fitting to to what you want the regression to be. So you lose all value in the exorcise.

There is a massive disconnect between fluff and crunch.

You hear 1 marine can take out 100 guardsmen but in game the conversion is only 16% in general.

its never going to feel right.

"You hear 1 marine can take out 100 guardsmen ..."
You also hear about a Guardsman upping the setting on his Lasgun to oneshot a CSM.

So if we have both
-1 Marine can beat 100 Guardsmen
-10 Guardsmen can beat 1 Marine

There is no logical way mechanics can meet that fluff; it's not internally consistent.

Bharring wrote:
But how can you discuss the relative value of appropriately-costed hordes vs appropriately-costed elites?

The logic itself boils down to "Appropriately-costed units should be roughly equally good as appropriately-costed units", which of course is tautological.

You're trying to fit a regression, then you're adjusting what you're fitting to to what you want the regression to be. So you lose all value in the exorcise.

Well this is not med tech science, we don't have to be right to the 6th place after zero. I doubt anyone thinks that a ravellan has a proper cost for what it does. Or that stuff like s spears or reapers can be fixed, and not killed, with point costs. Now considering that GW is in favour of point changes and not rules changes, people have to live with the fact that some stuff is over costed and some is undercosted.

Just compare the point cost of a LR cmd and a normal LR. Or something like a GK termintor and GK paladin.

You're right that this isn't med tech science. But if the math shows that the line of reasoning we're going down means literally nothing (as in, we're just showing that 1 equals 1), it's useful to back out of that path.

Further, it's a great way to expand and/or practice logic and understanding. Realizing that adjusting data for your regression so it better fits your model truly is pointless - you're just using your model, not the regression - is an important lesson to learn. Better learnt debating plastic toy soldiers than doing something important.

My point is that, claiming Elites are almost always overcosted and Hordes are almost always undercosted, then waving way every counterexample as "but they're undercosted, they should fit this model" doesn't get us anywhere.

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:
Caught myself wondering similar this morning ...

when did it change from guardsmen following tanks under heavy fire to infantry standing in a semi circle to protect the tank.

but to your question, when the superhumans are only 16.6666% better than the humans, and the humans can more than make up that difference in quantity .. then superman is going to stay home feeling very inferior

I mean from a lore standpoint (depending on the regiment/general) guardsmen are often used as meat shields to protect valuable assets like tanks.

Also isn't this just another "space marine power armor needs a buff" thread? I don't think anyone is arguing that the SM codex (and their counterparts) don't need a rules update. But also holding game mechanics to fluff levels is just dumb. I mean for example you would have to field thousands of guardsmen to ever equal the fluff rules of marine army we see on the tabletop now

Asmodios wrote:

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:
Caught myself wondering similar this morning ...

when did it change from guardsmen following tanks under heavy fire to infantry standing in a semi circle to protect the tank.

but to your question, when the superhumans are only 16.6666% better than the humans, and the humans can more than make up that difference in quantity .. then superman is going to stay home feeling very inferior

I mean from a lore standpoint (depending on the regiment/general) guardsmen are often used as meat shields to protect valuable assets like tanks.

Also isn't this just another "space marine power armor needs a buff" thread? I don't think anyone is arguing that the SM codex (and their counterparts) don't need a rules update. But also holding game mechanics to fluff levels is just dumb. I mean for example you would have to field thousands of guardsmen to ever equal the fluff rules of marine army we see on the tabletop now

Nah, originally it was a thread about why it is that Guard orders allow basic human mooks to do for free what almost every other faction has to pass a test, spend CP, or have a super specialized unit ala Khorne Bezerkers to be able to do.

Fight Twice, Move Twice, Fall Back and Shoot, and reroll all hits should not be thrown around like candy.

Agree. Even those who get it, it should be watered down.

From a balance perspective, the Ynnari versions are certainly bigger offenders. But I dislike both.

No other faction has a unit as weak as a commander giving out those buffs. Just murder them and be done with it.

"No other faction has a unit as weak as a commander giving out those buffs. Just murder them and be done with it."
*cough* Warlock.

the_scotsman wrote:

Nah, originally it was a thread about why it is that Guard orders allow basic human mooks to do for free what almost every other faction has to pass a test, spend CP, or have a super specialized unit ala Khorne Bezerkers to be able to do.

Fight Twice, Move Twice, Fall Back and Shoot, and reroll all hits should not be thrown around like candy.

Right. My standpoint on this is that it's Move Twice, Fire Twice etc. on low-stat units, which blunts the effectiveness.

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:Caught myself wondering similar this morning ...

when did it change from guardsmen following tanks under heavy fire to infantry standing in a semi circle to protect the tank.

It's pretty much always been the infantry standing in a semi circle to protect the tank, except for 5E where everything rode in its own tank. Certainly you never hid behind the tanks in 6E/7E when anything making base contact with a tank basically auto-killed it

the_scotsman wrote:
It's less about the "quality vs quantity" aspect and more about "because of orders, guardsmen feel stronger in quality than the specialist units other armies have."

Guard have a plethora of free buffs on 30-50 point characters that would make other armies blush coming off of the auras of 200+ point characters or 2CP stratagems.

Having a squad of guardsmen fight twice next to an Officer (who does nothin but give orders) has a wee bit different effect compared with other armies where that 200pt HQ is a tank of a CC monster and the aura affected troops are individually many times more capable, and the Aura can enhance a larger number of units than any individual IG officer can. Now, there are cost issues for some things that can certainly be addressed, but the impact of these abilities between the different contexts is enormous. Also, Orders have been a thing for almost a decade and 4 editions now, largely doing the same things they do now.

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar are close, but outright ignoring LoS is busted as feth.

Where did I say IG was supposed to be NPC faction? Reading in much?

IG is soul crushing because of the sheer number of wounds they can put on the table. Wounds you can never get rid of because of their sheer numbers.

Well actually ignoring LoS in a game where every official terrain element does not block LoS is not particularly useful.

 Trickstick wrote:
No other faction has a unit as weak as a commander giving out those buffs. Just murder them and be done with it.

Couple things here.

1) I can have three for 90 points, the cost of almost every other faction's basic HQ.

2) They are still characters, hiding behind the cheapest screen horde in the game.

3) even when you get to them they have 5++ and W4.

Psychic buffs that don't require a roll and can't be cancelled are way better than the way the game tries to implement support roles into other armies via the very janky psyker mechanics.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:Caught myself wondering similar this morning ...

when did it change from guardsmen following tanks under heavy fire to infantry standing in a semi circle to protect the tank.

It's pretty much always been the infantry standing in a semi circle to protect the tank, except for 5E where everything rode in its own tank. Certainly you never hid behind the tanks in 6E/7E when anything making base contact with a tank basically auto-killed it

the_scotsman wrote:
It's less about the "quality vs quantity" aspect and more about "because of orders, guardsmen feel stronger in quality than the specialist units other armies have."

Guard have a plethora of free buffs on 30-50 point characters that would make other armies blush coming off of the auras of 200+ point characters or 2CP stratagems.

Having a squad of guardsmen fight twice next to an Officer (who does nothin but give orders) has a wee bit different effect compared with other armies where that 200pt HQ is a tank of a CC monster and the aura affected troops are individually many times more capable, and the Aura can enhance a larger number of units than any individual IG officer can. Now, there are cost issues for some things that can certainly be addressed, but the impact of these abilities between the different contexts is enormous. Also, Orders have been a thing for almost a decade and 4 editions now, largely doing the same things they do now.

Yes, "Largely" except in this context means "doing none of the things anyone is complaining about."

Move Move Move used to be "roll 3d6 pick the highest when you run(advance), move an extra inch or two". Now it's "Advance AGAIN multiplying your move by two. Oh, if you're the right army tactic, you can still shoot after rofl rofl rofl." First Rank Second Rank didn't double your firepower, and in the olden days you had to stay still if you wanted to double tap (you know, like you would if you're firing in ranks . "Get Back in the Fight" was a morale thing, not a "Leave melee and shoot again at full effect like you've got a jet pack strapped to your back" thing.

Every order has the same NAME it used to have, but the effects have been amped to such goofy levels that you've now got guardsmen doing things that in other factions you have to be a fast close combat specialist, or a stationary shooting specialist, or using a 3CP stratagem to do.

Also, "every other faction can do that with auras" is a silly argument because A) show me a faction that has a fight twice, double your firepower, or move twice aura please, and B) GUARD GETS THE AURAS EVERYONE ELSE GETS ANYWAY. They have a morale aura. They have reroll to hit auras. They have +1 attack auras. They also have psychic powers, one of the better lists in the game. And all these aura giving/order giving/psychic power casting buff characters are half to a third the cost that other factions pay for these characters.

Guard infantry squads are awesome (and always have been) because whatever the edition, for the pts, you can get a helluva lot more shots at the enemy. End of the day it's about making your opponent roll as many saves as possible, as often as possible.
Guard are also awesome because they're cheap enough that you can also afford to bring a good selection of heavier options in addition to that hoard of infantry.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
No other faction has a unit as weak as a commander giving out those buffs. Just murder them and be done with it.

Couple things here.

1) I can have three for 90 points, the cost of almost every other faction's basic HQ.

2) They are still characters, hiding behind the cheapest screen horde in the game.

3) even when you get to them they have 5++ and W4.

All true. You could use snipers but I know they are not the best units. How does that new formation stack up?

the_scotsman wrote:
Move Move Move used to be "roll 3d6 pick the highest when you run(advance), move an extra inch or two". Now it's "Advance AGAIN multiplying your move by two. Oh, if you're the right army tactic, you can still shoot after rofl rofl rofl."

You can't shoot after Move Move Move, it replaces shooting.

ccs wrote:
Guard infantry squads are awesome (and always have been) because whatever the edition, for the pts, you can get a helluva lot more shots at the enemy. End of the day it's about making your opponent roll as many saves as possible, as often as possible.
Guard are also awesome because they're cheap enough that you can also afford to bring a good selection of heavier options in addition to that hoard of infantry.

They really haven't been. I'm sorry, it is definitely a pet peeve of mine when people decide "thing that's strong now has ALWAYS BEEN TOO STRONG" because in many cases (like this case) it really isn't. Guard in previous editions were flimsier (due to basic weapons having AP5 and the old wounding system making S5 wound them on 2s), less offensively powerful (fewer shots from FRFSRF in 7th and 6th and in 5th you had to not move to even double tap) and costed more.

You get this a lot about Dark Eldar as well, who have averaged about as well as Orks throughout the editions. One tiny flare of high-tieredness in 5th and that's...about it until now.

As soon as 6th came along an introduced removing models from the front, Guardsmen became almost impossible to advance with. You would lose far too much ground. I'm glad that mechanic is gone.

Also, Guardsmen have been underpowered in a few editons. Look at 3rd-4th, where they were pretty useless compared to other troops.

the_scotsman wrote:
Fight Twice, Move Twice, Fall Back and Shoot, and reroll all hits should not be thrown around like candy.

- Fight twice just became a faith power for Sororitas, was a psychic power for Slaanesh daemons, was a innate unit power for Khorne Berzerkers, is a stratagem for Marines and CSM, and is available to Eldar through Ynnari. It's hardly unique to IG, and IG squads are hardly the most devastating unit to receive that buff.

- Move twice is available to CSM through Warptime, Tyranids through Hive Commander, index Sororitas through Acts of Faith, and Eldar through Ynnari. It's hardly unique to IG, and IG squads are hardly the most durable and fastest units able to receive that buff.

- Fall back and shoot is available to every unit with Fly, SM through Ultramarines. It's hardly unique to IG, and IG squads are hardly the most mobile and devastating units able to receive that buff.

- Re-roll all hits is available to CSM through Abbadon, Space Marines through Guilliman, Adeptus Mechanicus through Cawl, and to several other units through stratagems (e.g. Daemonforge). It's hardly unique to IG, and IG squads are hardly the most devastating shooting units able to receive that buff.

They are hardly thrown around like candy, and IG are hardly the scariest units they can be used on.

 Trickstick wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
No other faction has a unit as weak as a commander giving out those buffs. Just murder them and be done with it.

Couple things here.

1) I can have three for 90 points, the cost of almost every other faction's basic HQ.

2) They are still characters, hiding behind the cheapest screen horde in the game.

3) even when you get to them they have 5++ and W4.

All true. You could use snipers but I know they are not the best units. How does that new formation stack up?

the_scotsman wrote:
Move Move Move used to be "roll 3d6 pick the highest when you run(advance), move an extra inch or two". Now it's "Advance AGAIN multiplying your move by two. Oh, if you're the right army tactic, you can still shoot after rofl rofl rofl."

You can't shoot after Move Move Move, it replaces shooting.

Which new formation? The space marine one that gives you the special Mordian order for 3CP?

Also - this is true, I thought it was just a second advance which would prevent shooting for non-tallarn. So I suppose the fastest Guard can move is 6"+D6"+3" embark+12"+D6"+3" disembark for 1cp (new Emperor's Blade Stratagem)

the_scotsman wrote:

Nah, originally it was a thread about why it is that Guard orders allow basic human mooks to do for free what almost every other faction has to pass a test, spend CP, or have a super specialized unit ala Khorne Bezerkers to be able to do.

Fight Twice, Move Twice, Fall Back and Shoot, and reroll all hits should not be thrown around like candy.

Fight Twice("Fix Bayonets!") requires you to be in 1" range to fight and be in range of an Officer to receive an Order.
Move Twice("Move! Move! Move!") is you foregoing Shooting and foregoing the ability to Charge, with the requirement of it being an "Advance" move instead of just moving as normal.
Fall Back and Shoot isn't. The Order("Get Back In the Fight!") is that you can shoot this phase even if they Fell Back--so the unit has to Fall Back during their Movement, they don't get to remain stuck in and then Fall Back+Shoot in one action.
"Reroll All Hits" isn't. The Order("Take Aim!") is to reroll hit rolls of 1. Cadians get a native trait that allows for them to reroll hit rolls of 1s, with "Take Aim!" instead getting the ability to reroll all hits if the unit remained stationary during its Movement


Also, as usual, it's worth mentioning that no one unit can ever do all of those things at once. If you receive an Order, that's it--you're done. No more Orders on that unit unless the Officer in question has Laurels of Command Relic and rolls a 4+. That Order is also 'consumed' effectively, as Officers have a set number of Orders.

In older editions, Guardsmen rarely got their 5+ save, thanks to the AP system. So, Guardsmen are now 50% more durable than they used to be.

Guardsmen, way back in 3rd, cost about half of a Marine. Now they cost less than a third. So, Guardsmen are cheaper than they used to be.

Rapid Fire used to force you to choose between maximizing firepower and being able to move. Now you can do both, so basic infantry make decent objective-grabbers. So, Guardsmen are more mobile than they used to be.

Morale used to mean that you could kill three Guardsmen and watch the rest run away. Now they tend to stick around, and you have to kill 7+ to reliably wipe the rest via morale.

Target allocation used to make special weapons less useful. If you shot a tank with a lascannon, the lasguns had to shoot the tank too. Now you can hide a heavy weapon in a squad and still maximize firepower.

I think people get too hung up on Orders. They're powerful, but they require officers who contribute basically nothing else besides filling slots. The biggest changes to Guard in 8th have been the subtle changes across editions, that combine to make them tougher, cheaper, faster, more tenacious, and better-armed than they used to be. Orders are just an easy scapegoat since their effects are so obvious.

Guard weren't always supposed to be a cannon fodder army; them becoming cheaper than even the Tyranid swarm units is a recent thing. I don't know why they didn't get bumped up to at least 5pts in CA.

the_scotsman wrote:
Which new formation? The space marine one that gives you the special Mordian order for 3CP?

It doesn't really cost 3cp though, it cost 1cp with 2cp to unlock it. You get other stuff for that 2cp too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

catbarf wrote:
In older editions, Guardsmen rarely got their 5+ save, thanks to the AP system. So, Guardsmen are now 50% more durable than they used to be.

Guardsmen, way back in 3rd, cost about half of a Marine. Now they cost less than a third. So, Guardsmen are cheaper than they used to be.

Rapid Fire used to force you to choose between maximizing firepower and being able to move. Now you can do both, so basic infantry make decent objective-grabbers. So, Guardsmen are more mobile than they used to be.

Morale used to mean that you could kill three Guardsmen and watch the rest run away. Now they tend to stick around, and you have to kill 7+ to reliably wipe the rest via morale.

Target allocation used to make special weapons less useful. If you shot a tank with a lascannon, the lasguns had to shoot the tank too. Now you can hide a heavy weapon in a squad and still maximize firepower.

I think people get too hung up on Orders. They're powerful, but they require officers who contribute basically nothing else besides filling slots. The biggest changes to Guard in 8th have been the subtle changes across editions, that combine to make them tougher, cheaper, faster, more tenacious, and better-armed than they used to be. Orders are just an easy scapegoat since their effects are so obvious.

Guard weren't always supposed to be a cannon fodder army; them becoming cheaper than even the Tyranid swarm units is a recent thing. I don't know why they didn't get bumped up to at least 5pts in CA.

You used to be able to blob up and be fearless from commissars, be able to deploy platoons as single choices, outflank them and get free respawning conscripts. Go back far enough and you even had crazy things like entire drop/infiltration armies and carapace/camo armies etc. Not to say they are not awesome now, but it isn't like they haven't taken some hits over time too.

 Kanluwen wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Nah, originally it was a thread about why it is that Guard orders allow basic human mooks to do for free what almost every other faction has to pass a test, spend CP, or have a super specialized unit ala Khorne Bezerkers to be able to do.

Fight Twice, Move Twice, Fall Back and Shoot, and reroll all hits should not be thrown around like candy.

Fight Twice("Fix Bayonets!") requires you to be in 1" range to fight and be in range of an Officer to receive an Order.
Move Twice("Move! Move! Move!") is you foregoing Shooting and foregoing the ability to Charge, with the requirement of it being an "Advance" move instead of just moving as normal.
Fall Back and Shoot isn't. The Order("Get Back In the Fight!") is that you can shoot this phase even if they Fell Back--so the unit has to Fall Back during their Movement, they don't get to remain stuck in and then Fall Back+Shoot in one action.
"Reroll All Hits" isn't. The Order("Take Aim!") is to reroll hit rolls of 1. Cadians get a native trait that allows for them to reroll hit rolls of 1s, with "Take Aim!" instead getting the ability to reroll all hits if the unit remained stationary during its Movement


Also, as usual, it's worth mentioning that no one unit can ever do all of those things at once. If you receive an Order, that's it--you're done. No more Orders on that unit unless the Officer in question has Laurels of Command Relic and rolls a 4+. That Order is also 'consumed' effectively, as Officers have a set number of Orders.

I have never claimed that orders are unlimited, just that they allow basic guardsmen to do things that other armies spend CPs on or only have on their most specialized units. I can't count the number of times I've looked at a Stratagem or other ability and gone "oh, it's like that thing I can do with my Guard, but with fewer limits and not CP free/automatic."

That said, some of the things you're highlighting here as limits are...questionable. You have to be in close combat in order to fight twice. ooookay. You can't...remain stuck in combat, then fall back and still shoot? What other unit does that? Every unit that can fall back and shoot has to do it in that order and doesn't get to keep the enemy stuck. Even if you could The only units that can have their cake and eat it too are units that can continue firing while stuck in combat, like Space Wolves with a stratagem, and....well....guardsmen, with Vostroyan or Death Korps orders.

the_scotsman wrote:

I have never claimed that orders are unlimited, just that they allow basic guardsmen to do things that other armies spend CPs on or only have on their most specialized units. I can't count the number of times I've looked at a Stratagem or other ability and gone "oh, it's like that thing I can do with my Guard, but with fewer limits and not CP free/automatic."

Obliterators shoot twice with awesome weapons. Hive Guard shoot twice with awesome weapons. Guard shoot twice with lasguns. It's a giant difference.