Why are Guardsmen so awesome in game?

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**Kanluwen**

the_scotsman wrote:

I have never claimed that orders are unlimited, just that they allow basic guardsmen to do things that other armies spend CPs on or only have on their most specialized units. I can't count the number of times I've looked at a Stratagem or other ability and gone "oh, it's like that thing I can do with my Guard, but with fewer limits and not CP free/automatic."

And did you ever think that's because if one goes and look at the "most specialized units" in Guard, they don't get access to these Orders?

That said, some of the things you're highlighting here as limits are...questionable. You have to be in close combat in order to fight twice. ooookay.

No, you have to be in 1" of an enemy unit in order to get to be issued the Order. You then get to fight during your Shooting Phase, and then you have a normal Combat phase afterwards.

You can't...remain stuck in combat, then fall back and still shoot? What other unit does that?
Every unit that can fall back and shoot has to do it in that order and doesn't get to keep the enemy stuck. Even if you could The only units that can have their cake and eat it too are units that can continue firing while stuck in combat, like Space Wolves with a stratagem, and....well....guardsmen, with Vostroyan or Death Korps orders.

Your portrayal of the Order made it read to me as though the unit would get to tarpit and then retreat+shoot in one action. I just wanted to make sure people are aware of the way things work.

Just like I'm sure you know that, as mentioned, "Take Aim!" doesn't do what you claimed it did.

**Kcalehc**

the_scotsman wrote:

Also - this is true, I thought it was just a second advance which would prevent shooting for non-tallarn. So I suppose the fastest Guard can move is 6"+D6"+3" embark+12"+D6"+3" disembark for 1cp (new Emperor's Blade Stratagem)

You cannot both Embark and Disembark in the same turn. Transports section of main rules.

**skchsan**

Orders aren't what makes guardsmen so awesome. The ultimate result of resolving the orders have minuscule effect on the game overall.

What makes guardsmen so scary is their board control and how cheap they are.

For 240 pts, mere 12% of 2000 pt games, 60 Guardsmen can swamp the entire deployment zone of any type.

Currently, 8th ed largely undervalues board control and low T/Sv single wound models.

**the_scotsman**

Kcalehc wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

Also - this is true, I thought it was just a second advance which would prevent shooting for non-tallarn. So I suppose the fastest Guard can move is 6"+D6"+3" embark+12"+D6"+3" disembark for 1cp (new Emperor's Blade Stratagem)

You cannot both Embark and Disembark in the same turn. Transports section of main rules.

"can" trumps "can't." If I have a stratagem that says "unit immediately moves as if it was the movement phase" that breaks the usual BRB restriction of only getting to move once.
You can tell that "Rapid Redeploy" does allow you to disembark even if you embarked, because the GSC version of the same stratagem (that costs the same, but has the additional restriction of only being able to get out 9" away and causes mortal wounds) has an additional restriction that says "you can't do it if you embarked that movement phase."

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

I have never claimed that orders are unlimited, just that they allow basic guardsmen to do things that other armies spend CPs on or only have on their most specialized units. I can't count the number of times I've looked at a Stratagem or other ability and gone "oh, it's like that thing I can do with my Guard, but with fewer limits and not CP free/automatic."

And did you ever think that's because if one goes and look at the "most specialized units" in Guard, they don't get access to these Orders?

That said, some of the things you're highlighting here as limits are...questionable. You have to be in close combat in order to fight twice. ooookay.

No, you have to be in 1" of an enemy unit in order to get to be issued the Order. You then get to fight during your Shooting Phase, and then you have a normal Combat phase afterwards.

You can't...remain stuck in combat, then fall back and still shoot? What other unit does that?
Every unit that can fall back and shoot has to do it in that order and doesn't get to keep the enemy stuck. Even if you could The only units that can have their cake and eat it too are units that can continue firing while stuck in combat, like Space Wolves with a stratagem, and....well....guardsmen, with Vostroyan or Death Korps orders.

Your portrayal of the Order made it read to me as though the unit would get to tarpit and then retreat+shoot in one action. I just wanted to make sure people are aware of the way things work.

Just like I'm sure you know that, as mentioned, "Take Aim!" doesn't do what you claimed it did.

"Take Aim" does do what I claimed it does, you just have to be a particular subfaction to get it and not move - which basically means that the order is for HWTs who don't want to be moving anyway, because FRFSRF is always better for regular guard squads.

**Bharring**

Restrictions in special rules doesn't necessarily mean lack of restrictions in similar rules is permission, though.

If there's a rule that says "Add +1 BS. This does not apply to Overwatch", and another that says "Add +1 BS", both units are hitting on 6s on Overwatch.

**Marmatag**

the_scotsman wrote:
With the current way that the orders system works, Guardsmen end up looking more like superhuman mega-freaks in game than the supposed "superhumans" depicted in the other factions.

There are a tiny handful of units that get to move twice for free in the movement phase: Lightning-fast eldar and harlequins specialized in close combat, swarms of genestealers commanded by the most notorious tyranid command monster in the whole galaxy, an angel imbued with the emperor's godlike power, and guardsmen. Recently GW made it so the angel couldn't do that anymore because it felt unfair.

There are a tiny handful of units that get to fight twice for free in the fight phase: Crazy bezerk sisters of battle strapped to death walkers, khorne bezerkers dedicated to the god of war and skulls, and guardsmen.

There are a small number of units that can double their shots at will in the shooting phase: Massive Tau mechas bristling with missiles and cannons who fire pneumatic support struts into the ground and brace themselves before unleashing hellfire, space marines in specialized body-encapsulating suits of iron man armor who stand still and unload into oncoming enemy swarms, highly advanced crystal-powered eldar grav tanks, and regular guard tanks and guardsmen.

I understand what they were going for with the orders system, but the current incarnation of the mechanic ends up making other armies and specialist units who make just one of the at-will commands their specific "thing" feel inadequate. In my last game playing my Guard against some Eldar, I was able to effortlessly outpace the fething Eldar in a last-turn objective grab, sending upwards of 40 guard bodies flying across the board 20+" to flood an objective with obsec bodies.

I'll take, Game Imbalance for 800, Alex.

Daily Double! Here's the answer: Because the rules writers clearly favor Imperial Guard.

You wrote... "Why are guardsmen so awesome?"

You wagered... $10000. That doubles your cash for a total of $20000! Great job!

At least you're starting to realize that you can automatically win against almost all lists, meta or not, by playing imperial guard, and without much difficulty. That's more than can be said for quite a few people on here.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

skchsan wrote:
Orders aren't what makes guardsmen so awesome. The ultimate result of resolving the orders have minuscule effect on the game overall.

What makes guardsmen so scary is their board control and how cheap they are.

For 240 pts, mere 12% of 2000 pt games, 60 Guardsmen can swamp the entire deployment zone of any type.

Currently, 8th ed largely undervalues board control and low T/Sv single wound models.

This. Guardsmen are 6 point models at the very least.

**Kanluwen**

the_scotsman wrote:

"Take Aim" does do what I claimed it does, you just have to be a particular subfaction to get it and not move - which basically means that the order is for HWTs who don't want to be moving anyway, because FRFSRF is always better for regular guard squads.

By this logic, Space Marine units are at a -1 to be hit by ranged weapons.

I know what you're talking about. Not everyone is aware of the particulars and I dislike people pretending that this kind of crap is always the case.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Marmatag wrote:

I'll take, Game Imbalance for 800, Alex.

Daily Double! Here's the answer: Because the rules writers clearly favor Imperial Guard.

...

skchsan wrote:
Orders aren't what makes guardsmen so awesome. The ultimate result of resolving the orders have minuscule effect on the game overall.

What makes guardsmen so scary is their board control and how cheap they are.

For 240 pts, mere 12% of 2000 pt games, 60 Guardsmen can swamp the entire deployment zone of any type.

Currently, 8th ed largely undervalues board control and low T/Sv single wound models.

This. Guardsmen are 6 point models at the very least.

If Guardsmen are 6 point models, then Marines are 20 points and fricking Scions are 15.

**Insectum7**

Marmatag wrote:

This. Guardsmen are 6 point models at the very least.

Not in my Chapter Approved.

**Marmatag**

Have you lost a game in 8th edition to marines, with Imperial Guard?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Insectum7 wrote:
Marmatag wrote:

This. Guardsmen are 6 point models at the very least.

Not in my Chapter Approved.

No one cares man.

**Insectum7**

Marmatag wrote:

No one cares man.

Unlikely. I suspect another thread about it will pop up in 3. . . 2. . .

**Vankraken**

skchsan wrote:
Orders aren't what makes guardsmen so awesome. The ultimate result of resolving the orders have minuscule effect on the game overall.

What makes guardsmen so scary is their board control and how cheap they are.

For 240 pts, mere 12% of 2000 pt games, 60 Guardsmen can swamp the entire deployment zone of any type.

Currently, 8th ed largely undervalues board control and low T/Sv single wound models.

Not to mention the near total removal of area effect weapons which could mulch large numbers of models and changes to the way wounding works so now S5 is equally effective against T3 targets and T4 (and S3 is equally effective against T4 and T5). The changes to AP also help guardsman (and boyz) so now their armor actually does something unlike before where most anti infantry weapons had least AP6 or AP5. Before those T shirt and cardboard armor saves didn't do a thing against most shooting necessitating the need for cover which made forming screens across open ground very susceptible to getting gunned down.

**Vaktathi**

the_scotsman wrote:

Yes, "Largely" except in this context means "doing none of the things anyone is complaining about."

I guess. Some have improved, some are demonstrably inferior to older versions, some were made obsolete and needed new functionality. Bring It Down for example just rerolls wounds on 1 now, whereas it used to reroll all failed hits against MC's and Vehicles, a much more powerful ability.

Move Move Move used to be "roll 3d6 pick the highest when you run(advance), move an extra inch or two". Now it's "Advance AGAIN multiplying your move by two. Oh, if you're the right army tactic, you can still shoot after rofl rofl rofl."

Thats probably the one that has the most merit to complain about ill grant.

First Rank Second Rank didn't double your firepower

Only partially true, it did double your lasgun shots at targets over 12" away, the only change now is that it's a bit better at under 12", but an extra half dozen lasgun shots probably arent swinging too many games.

and in the olden days you had to stay still if you wanted to double tap (you know, like you would if you're firing in ranks .

While true, that hasn't been the case for the last 3 editions.

Get Back in the Fight" was a morale thing, not a "Leave melee and shoot again at full effect like you've got a jet pack strapped to your back" thing.

The original functionality of this order no longer exists, it's about the only mechanic in the game to approximate the original intent of the rule.

That said, given what usually happens to guardsmen in close combat, how often are units withdrawing and still are able to hit back with great power? Relatively rarely, these are weeny units that will generally have been quite depleted.

Every order has the same NAME it used to have, but the effects have been amped to such goofy levels that you've now got guardsmen doing things that in other factions you have to be a fast close combat specialist, or a stationary shooting specialist, or using a 3CP stratagem to do.

Lots of factions and units have many of the same abilities and don't need to spend 3CP to do it. More to the point, in such cases, the units getting 3 CP spend on them are typically delivering dramatically more impressive returns than the guardsmen are.

Also, "every other faction can do that with auras" is a silly argument

I don't recall making that argument, only that there is a difference between a 200pt CC beast of a combat character and what their abilities are impacting, and what guardsmen bring to the table.

They also have psychic powers, one of the better lists in the game. And all these aura giving/order giving/psychic power casting buff characters are half to a third the cost that other factions pay for these characters.

Primarily because the IG characters have literally no other utility. They bring no great resiliency or killing power in and of themselves for the most part, just the order/aura/powers.

**catbarf**

Marmatag wrote:At least you're starting to realize that you can automatically win against almost all lists, meta or not, by playing imperial guard, and without much difficulty.

Must be a grand conspiracy that mono-Guard aren't winning tournaments, then.

Marmatag wrote:No one cares man.

Pot, kettle. Please show us on the doll where the Imperial Guardsman touched you.

**Martel732**

Anyone who has used both marines and guardsmen should have noticed how much easier it is to play with guardsmen. You don't have to be careful, you don't care if they die, etc. They get in the way to the enemy, cause more damage than they should, and are a general nuisance. So good. They are better in every phase of the game, including assault, because they block assaults so effectively, and don't REALLY care if they don't shoot.

**Galas**

I think this thread was more about how strange feels that something that in most other armies is made by a great power (Ynnari gain power from the souls of the death, Sororitas are literally making miracles, etc...), Guardsmen, normal, humans, do the same just because a dude is shouting them.

And yeah this is not a "well a SM can't kill 300 guardsmen ingame because fluff doesn't matter" and more about "The gameplay should try to create sensations that work accordingly with the expectation the players have" just like playing Custodes feels like playing a true ultra elite army unlinke Space Marines.

**Martel732**

Orders are pretty miraculous, as it makes guardsmen better at something like falling back and shooting than the ultramarine, who practice it all the time in theory.

But then, it can mimic at 3 CP stratagem and let guardsmen fight again.

And then mimic a stratagem only slaaneesh forces get.

And it also makes them move faster than my jump troops.

"well a SM can't kill 300 guardsmen ingame because fluff doesn't matter"

Marines can't kill a dead cow with a power chainsaw atm.

**generalchaos34**

catbarf wrote:
Marmatag wrote:At least you're starting to realize that you can automatically win against almost all lists, meta or not, by playing imperial guard, and without much difficulty.

Must be a grand conspiracy that mono-Guard aren't winning tournaments, then.

Marmatag wrote:No one cares man.

Pot, kettle. Please show us on the doll where the Imperial Guardsman touched you.

Everyone tells me how great guard are but you pretty much never see mono guard winning anything, just the loyal 32 boosting a small squad of whatever stupid stuff the meta is using at the moment. Sure they have cool order and can do some amazing things but at the end of the day you are shooting with lasguns on T3 platforms with poor shooting.

I think an adjustment to how CPs work (i.e. limiting how they are used, as in per detachment only) and also an increase in the strength of anti infantry weapons will really help. A simple solution would be to make flamers have the number of shots based on unit size. So 1d6 for less than 5, 3+D3 for 5 or more, 6 hits for 10 or more. That would put a lot of Oooomph back into the flamer and really make elite armies shine while horde armies will have to really think about who they are shooting at, as well as make flame weapons actually worthwhile instead of simply being used to snipe Eldar aircraft (which is very silly)

**Martel732**

Guardsmen shoot at T5 and below better than marines by a long shot. I've fought some vicious lists with 120-150 guardsmen. I wonder if only group think keeps these lists out of the top, or if there actually is a weakness I haven't found.

**Trickstick**

Mass infantry can be a liability in a timed tournament setting.

**BertBert**

Martel732 wrote:
Guardsmen shoot at T5 and below better than marines by a long shot. I've fought some vicious lists with 120-150 guardsmen. I wonder if only group think keeps these lists out of the top, or if there actually is a weakness I haven't found.

There is just no reason to play an inferior list, is all. If Imp soup got nerfed or outright prohibited, you'd probably see more mono Imp lists at the top.

**TwinPoleTheory**

Trickstick wrote:
Mass infantry can be a liability in a timed tournament setting.

So much this. If tournament format dropped a round each day (down to 2) and went to a 4 hour time limit you would see a lot more list variety I think. Not to mention that horde lists could actually bring the strength of their lists to bear without slow play.

**Marmatag**

catbarf wrote:
Marmatag wrote:At least you're starting to realize that you can automatically win against almost all lists, meta or not, by playing imperial guard, and without much difficulty.

Must be a grand conspiracy that mono-Guard aren't winning tournaments, then.

Marmatag wrote:No one cares man.

Pot, kettle. Please show us on the doll where the Imperial Guardsman touched you.

"Mono" is the ultimate disingenuous argument.

A faction is good or bad irrespective of whether it's forced to play mono or not. Only 3 factions, Orks, Necrons, and Tau, really are mono faction.

Imperial Guard not winning as a mono faction means nothing, because they have no restriction where they need to be played mono faction. That's like saying "how many games have you won while standing on one foot?" It's irrelevant, because that's just not a metric by which the game is measured. And since you're bringing up tournament data, guard is still far and away the most common army and has bar none the most wins in 8th edition. Oh but wait, some guard players have added an imperial knight to their lists. Therefore, Guard aren't strong? Derp. That's obviously a fallacy, but then we get back to the whole "mono" sideshow.

**Crimson**

the_scotsman wrote:

Nah, originally it was a thread about why it is that Guard orders allow basic human mooks to do for free what almost every other faction has to pass a test, spend CP, or have a super specialized unit ala Khorne Bezerkers to be able to do.

Fight Twice, Move Twice, Fall Back and Shoot, and reroll all hits should not be thrown around like candy.

Yep, it is just silly. It is not even about balance, if IG was costed fairly (it isn't) it would still be silly. It is just immersion breaking that a guy shouting at you can make a regular grunt to perform things that ludicrously agile ancient aliens or genetically enhanced supersoldiers with centuries of experience cannot. If these officers are so effective, Guilliman should definitely assign them to marine chapters and Assassin Temples!

**skchsan**

In the spirit of sticking to the OP and the topic:

Guardsmen are not these uber-OP boogieman of the 8th edition. However, they ARE indeed the sole S-tier troop choice in the game, reasons being but not limited to:
1. cheap.
2. has access to 'do-this-twice-in-a-turn' buff with minimal point expenditure.
3. obsec.
4. CP generation system scaling based on how many troop choices you take.
5. board control.
6. change in how AP works, increasing their durability per point.
7. fall back mechanism.

Guardsmen have the best offense, defense & utility per point in the game currently with GREAT synergy to changes made to core mechanics in 8th ed.

**Martel732**

They're pretty OP boogiemen. Especially if you try to play with elite troops.

**skchsan**

Martel732 wrote:
They're pretty OP boogiemen. Especially if you try to play with elite troops.

Yeah but they're not uber-OP boogiemen - just OP boogiemen!

**Martel732**

Okay. They aren't scatterbike good. So they are merely stuck at OP boogiemen. They lose the "uber".

**Insectum7**

Galas wrote:
I think this thread was more about how strange feels that something that in most other armies is made by a great power (Ynnari gain power from the souls of the death, Sororitas are literally making miracles, etc...), Guardsmen, normal, humans, do the same just because a dude is shouting them.

Oorah!!

**Trickstick**

Insectum7 wrote:
Galas wrote:
I think this thread was more about how strange feels that something that in most other armies is made by a great power (Ynnari gain power from the souls of the death, Sororitas are literally making miracles, etc...), Guardsmen, normal, humans, do the same just because a dude is shouting them.

Oorah!!

Orks believe that red makes things go fasta. Humans believe that you have to follow orders. Same thing.

**An Actual Englishman**

Marmatag wrote:

"Mono" is the ultimate disingenuous argument.

A faction is good or bad irrespective of whether it's forced to play mono or not. Only 3 factions, Orks, Necrons, and Tau, really are mono faction.

And even Orks, Necrons and Tau effectively 'soup' with themselves. You rarely see one single Clan, Dynasty or Sept at competitive events.