Switch Theme:

How orginal is 40k's universe?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Poll
Is he right
Hes half right
Yes hes right
No hes wrong

View results
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss





GW can "claim" to own the Sun too but it doesn't make it true. The Chapter House lawsuits and the Spots the Space Marine debacle really slapped GW down a peg or twenty.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/09 15:34:51


Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. 
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut






Karol wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Everything creative is inspired by, borrowed from, or based on other things to one degree or another. It's mostly about how these elements are combined or recreated in new ways.

It's not about where those individual elements came from reqlly, it's more about the whole. And that I feel is pretty unique and original in 40k.


But doesn't GW claim that they have the sole ownership of words, or stuff like swords and not just specific designes, but all swords made for models of the scale etc?


You could make the comparison more easily with you pictures if mabey it was FLAT not a round snake, and also if it broadened out at the bottom instead of just one width

But isn't the look like that just because it would have been to hard or costly to cast the models that way?

It's a world set in the future yet we can all pretty much imagine exactly how things from that world would look in ours today

Well that is because the copied actually existing political systems and just put them in space. They even left some names the same, so we have commisars in IG etc.




Well theres plenty of rounded with detail on things like sword handles etc to see that theres no way they did it for molding costs. Its not like its just a flat crapy surface, its a nicely detailed helmet design, just as nice as the simlpe snakes......

Black legion / Chaos Space Marine Collector. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




40k is pretty much the greatest example of if you commit plagiarism from enough sources, you end up with something unique. Most individual factions and characters are based on previous media or real life examples but GW threw enough of that together to make something new.
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut






But all fantasy got its ideas from some thing that came from some one else right??? technically speaking.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/09 15:54:56


Black legion / Chaos Space Marine Collector. 
   
Made in gb
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Karol wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Everything creative is inspired by, borrowed from, or based on other things to one degree or another. It's mostly about how these elements are combined or recreated in new ways.

It's not about where those individual elements came from reqlly, it's more about the whole. And that I feel is pretty unique and original in 40k.


But doesn't GW claim that they have the sole ownership of words, or stuff like swords and not just specific designes, but all swords made for models of the scale etc?


I don't really see what your point is... Yes, they have protected words and other intellectual property. That doesn't mean they shoot down, or even legally could if they wanted to, everything that is inspired by their property.

In the same way they took ideas from Dune, but there's no Fremen or Spice Melange mentioned in 40k.
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut






 Stux wrote:
Karol wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Everything creative is inspired by, borrowed from, or based on other things to one degree or another. It's mostly about how these elements are combined or recreated in new ways.

It's not about where those individual elements came from reqlly, it's more about the whole. And that I feel is pretty unique and original in 40k.


But doesn't GW claim that they have the sole ownership of words, or stuff like swords and not just specific designes, but all swords made for models of the scale etc?


I don't really see what your point is... Yes, they have protected words and other intellectual property. That doesn't mean they shoot down, or even legally could if they wanted to, everything that is inspired by their property.

In the same way they took ideas from Dune, but there's no Fremen or Spice Melange mentioned in 40k.



What have you never seen or your self had an idea and then found out it already exists

Black legion / Chaos Space Marine Collector. 
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman




Gainesville, VA

 Stormatious wrote:
But all fantasy got its ideas from some thing that came from some one else right??? technically speaking.


Mostly yes, e.g. Tolkien didn't invent orcs or elves or dwarves, they were already a part of folklore, but he made his own versions that were somewhat different. GW did something similar and made a derivative work from earlier works. But they didn't outright copy (much); and in the early days much of it was (arguably) in parody, which is also protected in its own right.
   
Made in gb
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





 Stormatious wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Karol wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Everything creative is inspired by, borrowed from, or based on other things to one degree or another. It's mostly about how these elements are combined or recreated in new ways.

It's not about where those individual elements came from reqlly, it's more about the whole. And that I feel is pretty unique and original in 40k.


But doesn't GW claim that they have the sole ownership of words, or stuff like swords and not just specific designes, but all swords made for models of the scale etc?


I don't really see what your point is... Yes, they have protected words and other intellectual property. That doesn't mean they shoot down, or even legally could if they wanted to, everything that is inspired by their property.

In the same way they took ideas from Dune, but there's no Fremen or Spice Melange mentioned in 40k.



What have you never seen or your self had an idea and then found out it already exists


It happens all the time to everybody! I think sometimes people underestimate just how many ideas that overlap billions of people will have :p

That said, 40k is definitely and explicitly inspired by many pre existing properties. Inspiration isn't infringement.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






It's also inspired by a wider range of things than most people think - the benefits of a higher art education. 40k is inspired as much by medieval art, religion, Victorian literature and the like as it is by more modern things like Tolkien and Dune.
   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

Arcanis161 wrote:I guess in summary, 40k hardly has any original ideas, but instead finds a way to blend a bunch of different ideas together into a (ok not really) cohesive story and universe.
Huron black heart wrote:Practically everything within 40k has been based on an idea from somewhere else, or at the very least, heavily influenced by it. The overall universe however feels like a unique entity of it's own, the sum of all the parts equalling more than the total (think I got that quote slightly wrong but you get the idea)

These guys, along with many others, get it. Warcraft is no different. The basic ideas aren't original, it's how you weave them together that matters.

Jaxler wrote:At what point does inspiration become theft?

That's what copyright lawyers are for.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Grizzled MkII Monster Veteran





Mississippi

Daemons and Chaos are heavily based on Micheal Moorcock’s Elric of Melinbone, which GW had the rights for to produce a Stormbringer game for a while (of which I have a copy).

It never ends well 
   
Made in ca
Missionary On A Mission






Chaos is definitely inspired by Moorcock more than anything else - right down to the eight-pointed star.

You can see Lovecraft's influence most in the genestealer cults (basically Shadow Over Innsmouth with a xenomorph aesthetic) and also in the old lore for the C'Tan, when they were spooky unknowable all-knowing entities completely unsuited to being tabletop miniatures.

I've heard it said that she can melt you with her eyes. 
   
Made in us
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control




San Jose, CA

SeanDavid1991 wrote:
Spoiler:
There are only seven stories that can ever be written.

Overcoming the Monster
Definition: The protagonist sets out to defeat an antagonistic force (often evil) which threatens the protagonist and/or protagonist's homeland.

Rags to Riches
Definition: The poor protagonist acquires power, wealth, and/or a mate, loses it all and gains it back, growing as a person as a result.

The Quest
Definition: The protagonist and companions set out to acquire an important object or to get to a location. They face temptations and other obstacles along the way.

Voyage and Return
Definition: The protagonist goes to a strange land and, after overcoming the threats it poses to them, they return with experience.

Comedy
Definition: Light and humorous character with a happy or cheerful ending; a dramatic work in which the central motif is the triumph over adverse circumstance, resulting in a successful or happy conclusion.[3] Booker makes sure to stress that comedy is more than humor. It refers to a pattern where the conflict becomes more and more confusing, but is at last made plain in a single clarifying event. The majority of romance films fall into this category.

Tragedy
Definition: The protagonist's character flaw or great mistake which is their undoing. Their unfortunate end evokes pity at their folly and the fall of a fundamentally good character.

Rebirth
Definition: An event forces the main character to change their ways and often become a better person.

Art and design have similar boundries.

There can only be so many ideas. Everything is influenced by something. There are no original ideas. What is original is the interpretation of those ideas, ideas grow and evolve.

I think Workshop do a fantastic job at their interpretation of what they design. There are fluffs sometimes as with any universe. Look at the books by Tolkien post LotR and WoW's Panda's.

What Workshop do really well better than any other is making the whole galaxy feel alive and full of lore. It's a world set in the future yet we can all pretty much imagine exactly how things from that world would look in ours today. To achieve that is special.



Joseph Campbell would be proud.

There are no new ideas, just modifications/changing perspective/innovative uses of existing ones.

Tolkien was equally influenced by Aurthurian/Druidian folklore as he was his own horrific experiences in WWI.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




The Admech were lifted from Asimov's Foundation series.

The Church of Science
   
Made in us
Grizzled MkII Monster Veteran





Mississippi

I thought “A Canticle for Leobwitz” (sp?) was the inspiration for Admech.

It never ends well 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Karol wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Everything creative is inspired by, borrowed from, or based on other things to one degree or another. It's mostly about how these elements are combined or recreated in new ways.

It's not about where those individual elements came from reqlly, it's more about the whole. And that I feel is pretty unique and original in 40k.


But doesn't GW claim that they have the sole ownership of words, or stuff like swords and not just specific designes, but all swords made for models of the scale etc?


You could make the comparison more easily with you pictures if mabey it was FLAT not a round snake, and also if it broadened out at the bottom instead of just one width

But isn't the look like that just because it would have been to hard or costly to cast the models that way?

It's a world set in the future yet we can all pretty much imagine exactly how things from that world would look in ours today

Well that is because the copied actually existing political systems and just put them in space. They even left some names the same, so we have commisars in IG etc.


If you are going to vilify GW for protecting their IP when copyright law is just one big mess, which forces them to be idiots to protect their work, I feel like you'd be better off directing your complaints to copyright laws instead of GW.

   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle






40k is WFB in space; WFB is D&D, the wargame; D&D is LotR in RPG form; LotR is modern high fantasy based on European folklore.

Throw in some Judge Dredd and Dune to give the Imperium of Man a dash of character and you have the basis of 40k.

 
   
Made in nl
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller






your mind

One of the best things about early gw was that it was a sort of clearinghouse of common tropes from scifi and fantasy. I mean everything from Moorcock to Aliens to Starship Troopers to Tolkein.

The game and hobby have suffered since gw put up its ip walls and started pretending it had no connection with the rest. Increasingly what is unique IP is senseless mumbojumbo trademark idiocy.

So yes. It is increasingly original but increasingly bad and increasingly derivative at the same time.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/09 21:55:14


   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

Torquar wrote:The Admech were lifted from Asimov's Foundation series.

The Church of Science

I don't recall the Foundation's Church of Science having the iron replacing flesh, nor the leaders of such knowing it was a bunch of hogwash.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in gb
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Devon, UK

 jeff white wrote:
One of the best things about early gw was that it was a sort of clearinghouse of common tropes from scifi and fantasy. I mean everything from Moorcock to Aliens to Starship Troopers to Tolkein.

The game and hobby have suffered since gw put up its ip walls and started pretending it had no connection with the rest. Increasingly what is unique IP is senseless mumbojumbo trademark idiocy.

So yes. It is increasingly original but increasingly bad and increasingly derivative at the same time.


Careful, lest Attornus Lawyerson unleashes the power of Litigus from his mighty power weapon Briefcasius and reduces you to a pile of smoking asch™ for suggesting that anything GW produces is anything less than 100% their own work.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in us
Aspirant Tech-Adept






 Charistoph wrote:
Arcanis161 wrote:I guess in summary, 40k hardly has any original ideas, but instead finds a way to blend a bunch of different ideas together into a (ok not really) cohesive story and universe.
Huron black heart wrote:Practically everything within 40k has been based on an idea from somewhere else, or at the very least, heavily influenced by it. The overall universe however feels like a unique entity of it's own, the sum of all the parts equalling more than the total (think I got that quote slightly wrong but you get the idea)

These guys, along with many others, get it. Warcraft is no different. The basic ideas aren't original, it's how you weave them together that matters.

Jaxler wrote:At what point does inspiration become theft?

That's what copyright lawyers are for.


No. Copyright lawyers and for fertilizing crop land with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Charistoph wrote:
Torquar wrote:The Admech were lifted from Asimov's Foundation series.

The Church of Science

I don't recall the Foundation's Church of Science having the iron replacing flesh, nor the leaders of such knowing it was a bunch of hogwash.
THEY TOOK Asimov's idea and added some steampunk/cyber fusion to it. Also they ripped off H. R. Giger too, the very original 40k art was heavily inspired by Giger.

See the first illustration of the emperor:



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/10 00:37:17


"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." Jesse "the mind" Ventura. 
   
Made in us
Mutating Changebringer





New Hampshire, USA

40K is a mountain of rip-offs. This is well and widely known.
As far as Khorne berzerker helmets...
100% taken from Conan there is a very good video on YouTube about it. Side by side comparisons through out.

Khorne Daemons 4000+pts
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





I remember going in to GW in the late 80’s and I don’t remember anything about like what they produced on the Sci-Fi front.

After decades of fleshing out there lore, numerous publications, massive design & character input as well as instantly recognisable figures from their quality, I think it would be fair to say they have done enough to lay claim to their universe.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/11 00:02:20


 
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut






 Chimaera wrote:
I remember going in to GW in the late 80’s and I don’t remember anything about like what they produced on the Sci-Fi front.

After decades of fleshing out there lore, numerous publications, massive design & character input as well as instantly recognisable figures from their quality, I think it would be fair to say they have done enough to lay claim to their universe.



I agree with you, i have not seen any thing that has ever made me think, omg thats so GW. So yeah you're right,.

Black legion / Chaos Space Marine Collector. 
   
Made in ca
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha

The original inspiration for the Imperial Guard is/was pretty clearly the Red Army.

Pro-Pain and Pro-Pain Accessories


The Fall of Kronstaat IV - Война Народная The People's War
The Plog - A [NSFW] Slaanesh Soup with Red Army Seasoning
The Fluff - Волшебная Сказка A Fairy Tale
 
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss





 Excommunicatus wrote:
The original inspiration for the Imperial Guard is/was pretty clearly the Red Army.
In addition to the Wehrmacht and British WW1 armies.

Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






The insane mishmash of all of 40k's various inspirations is what makes it original and great.

   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
The original inspiration for the Imperial Guard is/was pretty clearly the Red Army.
In addition to the Wehrmacht and British WW1 armies.

Along with a half dozen other dystopian/sci-fi/historical armies, depending on which brand you're looking at.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Charistoph wrote:

I don't recall the Foundation's Church of Science having the iron replacing flesh, nor the leaders of such knowing it was a bunch of hogwash.


The leaders of the Church were the heads of the Foundation itself, they were well aware that the religious trappings were hogwash. They taught technology use by rote, rather than actual scientific knowledge. They didn't engage in heavy augmentation like the admech it's true, but Foundation was written in 1951...
   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

Torquar wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:

I don't recall the Foundation's Church of Science having the iron replacing flesh, nor the leaders of such knowing it was a bunch of hogwash.

The leaders of the Church were the heads of the Foundation itself, they were well aware that the religious trappings were hogwash. They taught technology use by rote, rather than actual scientific knowledge. They didn't engage in heavy augmentation like the admech it's true, but Foundation was written in 1951...

Sorry, I meant to reverse that second part, the AdMech leadership don't consider their religion a bunch of hogwash like the Foundation's Church of Science leadership does.

Foundation was first written earlier than that with the first story being written in 1941, it just wasn't bound as a book till 1951.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: