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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Wyzilla wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Yeah the super big models are intentionally priced out of competitive play, and honestly it's probably a good thing. They are and should remain 'for fun' models.

Why should they remain bad just because you don't like them?

Because they'd break the bloody game if they were implemented. The reason why 40k is at such a bad state for the past years is because apocalypse creeped into what was designed to be a skirmish wargame and is fundamentally incapable of balancing apocalypse style matches. Throwing in competitive Thunderhawks would be akin to dumping kerosene on the fire.

As for the Contemptor, it's the better choice every time. Mortis Contemptors can actually move and remain accurate with a 2+ BS while the Predator will degrade to a fairly limiting 4+ if it re-positions. Mortis Contemptors loaded up with lascannons can be aggressive and constantly march forward, while Predators will be best served as a static gunline.

The reason the game is in a "bad state" is because of poor balance in general. Thunderhawks had nothing to do with that. You could even eliminate Knights entirely and the game would still be unbalanced. Same thing to last edition and the edition before.

Super Heavy units did literally nothing but simply get implemented. To pretend that broke the game is simply playing revisionary for how YOU think the game should be played.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Wyzilla wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Yeah the super big models are intentionally priced out of competitive play, and honestly it's probably a good thing. They are and should remain 'for fun' models.

Why should they remain bad just because you don't like them?

Because they'd break the bloody game if they were implemented. The reason why 40k is at such a bad state for the past years is because apocalypse creeped into what was designed to be a skirmish wargame and is fundamentally incapable of balancing apocalypse style matches. Throwing in competitive Thunderhawks would be akin to dumping kerosene on the fire.

As for the Contemptor, it's the better choice every time. Mortis Contemptors can actually move and remain accurate with a 2+ BS while the Predator will degrade to a fairly limiting 4+ if it re-positions. Mortis Contemptors loaded up with lascannons can be aggressive and constantly march forward, while Predators will be best served as a static gunline.

The reason the game is in a "bad state" is because of poor balance in general. Thunderhawks had nothing to do with that. You could even eliminate Knights entirely and the game would still be unbalanced. Same thing to last edition and the edition before.

Super Heavy units did literally nothing but simply get implemented. To pretend that broke the game is simply playing revisionary for how YOU think the game should be played.


No, it's because this game was literally not built for fitting superheavies onto a d6 platform. While the game would still be broken/basal without superheavies, superheavies were the start of the game's decline when gak like titans started to creep into it. Even Land Raiders are fairly excessive units for the limits of the 40k system.

“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon






Meh, some superheavies are fine. the Wraithknight and the Baneblades are fine IMO since they're fairly vulnerable to concentrated anti-tank fire, and are expensive enough that they usually have to kill quite a lot to make their points back. The Space Marine super heavy tanks are so expensive that they're probably just not worth fielding, like the Fellblade is damn near 1000 points, that's nuts. Superheavies that have 3++ saves though... that's a problem

2000 points Aurora 1st company
4000 points Aurora 5th company
2000 points Aurora 6th company
3000 points Aurora 8th company

Aurora Chapter 8th company Blog -
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/408113.page 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Wyzilla wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Wyzilla wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Yeah the super big models are intentionally priced out of competitive play, and honestly it's probably a good thing. They are and should remain 'for fun' models.

Why should they remain bad just because you don't like them?

Because they'd break the bloody game if they were implemented. The reason why 40k is at such a bad state for the past years is because apocalypse creeped into what was designed to be a skirmish wargame and is fundamentally incapable of balancing apocalypse style matches. Throwing in competitive Thunderhawks would be akin to dumping kerosene on the fire.

As for the Contemptor, it's the better choice every time. Mortis Contemptors can actually move and remain accurate with a 2+ BS while the Predator will degrade to a fairly limiting 4+ if it re-positions. Mortis Contemptors loaded up with lascannons can be aggressive and constantly march forward, while Predators will be best served as a static gunline.

The reason the game is in a "bad state" is because of poor balance in general. Thunderhawks had nothing to do with that. You could even eliminate Knights entirely and the game would still be unbalanced. Same thing to last edition and the edition before.

Super Heavy units did literally nothing but simply get implemented. To pretend that broke the game is simply playing revisionary for how YOU think the game should be played.


No, it's because this game was literally not built for fitting superheavies onto a d6 platform. While the game would still be broken/basal without superheavies, superheavies were the start of the game's decline when gak like titans started to creep into it. Even Land Raiders are fairly excessive units for the limits of the 40k system.

The fact you even made issue of the scale of Land Raiders just shows you should play Killteam instead of not understanding the nuances of balancing Super Heavy units, pretty much where most of them aren't broken and are arguably poor at times.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





the_scotsman wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
The contemptor is a rare case where I strongly recommend going forgeworld, in spite of their GARBAGE quality control standards. The FW model is so much better than the plastic one that it’s embarrassing. That plastic kit should be $40 max. And, if you’re going to convert to lascannons anyway, it’ll cost about the same money.


You need to convert anyway because unless I'm wrong, FW doesn't sell a twin lascannon. Unless you have to buy the body (56) and 4x of the lascannon arms (16) for a total of 120USD for a fething dreadnought.

Versus, lets see... 60+10$ for two cognis lascannon bits from ebay.

For a little over half the price I'm gonna call it worthwhile.


The Contemptor Lascannon arm from ForgeWorld is a twin Lascannon.


Ah, OK, that brings it a little closer to parity. A paltry 90$ for your greeble-covered hunk of bubbly miscast sub china-quality resin you'll spend 7 hours painstakingly removing the mould lines from each little layer on the huge chest eagle. Why for just the price of my daily cup of coffee for a month I could have this premium product.



Make no mistake, the quality control on Forgeworld resin is the worst of any company I've purchased resin from, and it's not even close.

BUT!

The resin contemptor can actually be posed to look amazing with some work. And the plastic one is $60 which is just as embarassing as the quality of Forgeworld.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I've never had a single issue with FW outside bent antennae here and there, but that's it.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I've never had a single issue with FW outside bent antennae here and there, but that's it.


They're also super good at resolving quality issues. They'll replace it, no problems.
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Wyzilla wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Wyzilla wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Yeah the super big models are intentionally priced out of competitive play, and honestly it's probably a good thing. They are and should remain 'for fun' models.

Why should they remain bad just because you don't like them?

Because they'd break the bloody game if they were implemented. The reason why 40k is at such a bad state for the past years is because apocalypse creeped into what was designed to be a skirmish wargame and is fundamentally incapable of balancing apocalypse style matches. Throwing in competitive Thunderhawks would be akin to dumping kerosene on the fire.

As for the Contemptor, it's the better choice every time. Mortis Contemptors can actually move and remain accurate with a 2+ BS while the Predator will degrade to a fairly limiting 4+ if it re-positions. Mortis Contemptors loaded up with lascannons can be aggressive and constantly march forward, while Predators will be best served as a static gunline.

The reason the game is in a "bad state" is because of poor balance in general. Thunderhawks had nothing to do with that. You could even eliminate Knights entirely and the game would still be unbalanced. Same thing to last edition and the edition before.

Super Heavy units did literally nothing but simply get implemented. To pretend that broke the game is simply playing revisionary for how YOU think the game should be played.


No, it's because this game was literally not built for fitting superheavies onto a d6 platform. While the game would still be broken/basal without superheavies, superheavies were the start of the game's decline when gak like titans started to creep into it. Even Land Raiders are fairly excessive units for the limits of the 40k system.

The fact you even made issue of the scale of Land Raiders just shows you should play Killteam instead of not understanding the nuances of balancing Super Heavy units, pretty much where most of them aren't broken and are arguably poor at times.

Do you just not understand what Warhammer is? Warhammer is developed as a skirmish game involving infantry and a couple tanks. It's based on the D6 system which inherently cripples granularity. Warhammer is not supposed to have superheavy units because it was not made with the intention of having superheavy units. The system Priestly devised was meant for a couple squads of infantry and a tank or two, and once you start throwing anything more at it things break down more and more until you get a mess. The only way Warhammer would be suitable for superheavy units at all is if the current system was completely scrapped, a 2d6 or d10 system was implemented, and the scale was accordingly adjusted to properly support the needed differences between basic infantry, marines/eldar, or the differences between a predator and a leman russ.

“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Then play 500 games exclusively. It isn't my problem you don't like the scale of those units shouting that it isn't 40k.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in au
Deadshot Weapon Moderati





Newcastle NSW

Yes go for the FW Contemptor, so much better with chapter tactics.
Ignore all the people complaining about quality, I've been collecting since the beginning of FW and never had a problem

The Four Winds Tribe has returned to claim the Underhive for House Escher


Deathwatch Kill Team: W9 D0 L2
 
   
Made in de
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller



Aachen

 Wyzilla wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Wyzilla wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Wyzilla wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Yeah the super big models are intentionally priced out of competitive play, and honestly it's probably a good thing. They are and should remain 'for fun' models.

Why should they remain bad just because you don't like them?

Because they'd break the bloody game if they were implemented. The reason why 40k is at such a bad state for the past years is because apocalypse creeped into what was designed to be a skirmish wargame and is fundamentally incapable of balancing apocalypse style matches. Throwing in competitive Thunderhawks would be akin to dumping kerosene on the fire.

As for the Contemptor, it's the better choice every time. Mortis Contemptors can actually move and remain accurate with a 2+ BS while the Predator will degrade to a fairly limiting 4+ if it re-positions. Mortis Contemptors loaded up with lascannons can be aggressive and constantly march forward, while Predators will be best served as a static gunline.

The reason the game is in a "bad state" is because of poor balance in general. Thunderhawks had nothing to do with that. You could even eliminate Knights entirely and the game would still be unbalanced. Same thing to last edition and the edition before.

Super Heavy units did literally nothing but simply get implemented. To pretend that broke the game is simply playing revisionary for how YOU think the game should be played.


No, it's because this game was literally not built for fitting superheavies onto a d6 platform. While the game would still be broken/basal without superheavies, superheavies were the start of the game's decline when gak like titans started to creep into it. Even Land Raiders are fairly excessive units for the limits of the 40k system.

The fact you even made issue of the scale of Land Raiders just shows you should play Killteam instead of not understanding the nuances of balancing Super Heavy units, pretty much where most of them aren't broken and are arguably poor at times.

Do you just not understand what Warhammer is? Warhammer is developed as a skirmish game involving infantry and a couple tanks. It's based on the D6 system which inherently cripples granularity. Warhammer is not supposed to have superheavy units because it was not made with the intention of having superheavy units. The system Priestly devised was meant for a couple squads of infantry and a tank or two, and once you start throwing anything more at it things break down more and more until you get a mess. The only way Warhammer would be suitable for superheavy units at all is if the current system was completely scrapped, a 2d6 or d10 system was implemented, and the scale was accordingly adjusted to properly support the needed differences between basic infantry, marines/eldar, or the differences between a predator and a leman russ.


2d6 for 40 hit rolls is a great idea...

40k is (no longer) a game of 2 squads and a tank versus the same. If it was I wouldn't be playing it, and so would many others. To me the game is really one of the worst games if it is reduced to 500pts, compared to other games of that size, but it is the only game that let's me play at a decent speed with 80 models per side including infantry and tanks and flyers and has that diverse of a faction list.

Noone stops you from playing 500pts games or from banning superheavies, as long as you find other players willing to go along.
But claiming others do not understand what 40k is while telling us what 40k was back in the previous millennium is questionable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/12 09:26:11


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




At this point give GW a few more editions of kill team and you will have the game for you, if 40k was a 2 squads and a vehicle scale game what would be the point of killteam?

Also I find it off that people complain about the scale of 40k increasing, but why if it was supposed to be a game played with 20 to 30 models did the individual models not matter more?

Epic while a great game in many ways suffered from the scale of the model's being so small, it limited the number of people buying them just as display models.

40k has evolved and still has a long way to go.

But on topic a predator is hilariously butter like in it's resilience, less mobile than a russ, which are all at odds with numerous lore descriptions.
FW indexes atleast contain some viable models unlike most of the codex vehicals.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Sicarans can probably be ran in place of Predators for example.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in de
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller



Aachen

Ice_can wrote:
But on topic a predator is hilariously butter like in it's resilience, less mobile than a russ, which are all at odds with numerous lore descriptions.
FW indexes atleast contain some viable models unlike most of the codex vehicals.


The mobility is what really pisses me off, to be honest. Just give them an Ignore Movement for Heavy Weapons already, make them more expensive in exchange. But let me feel like I'm fielding a mobile battle tank and not a short-ranged artillery piece.
Resilience is fine with me - they're upgunned Rhinos after all. But I shouldn't long for my Tallarn Leman Russ Commanders all game, ffs.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/12 22:28:11


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




nekooni wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
But on topic a predator is hilariously butter like in it's resilience, less mobile than a russ, which are all at odds with numerous lore descriptions.
FW indexes atleast contain some viable models unlike most of the codex vehicals.


The mobility is what really pisses me off, to be honest. Just give them an Ignore Movement for Heavy Weapons already, make them more expensive in exchange. But let me feel like I'm fielding a mobile battle tank and not a short-ranged artillery piece.
Resilience is fine with me - they're upgunned Rhinos after all. But I shouldn't long for my Tallarn Leman Russ Commanders all game, ffs.

That's why I replaced mine with sicarans, they atleast don't feel like a let down.

Though they arn't exactlly making a Russ look bad and are still bad compaired to Russ commanders, but the can have some synergies and buffs stacked to make them work.
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

 Stux wrote:
Yeah the super big models are intentionally priced out of competitive play, and honestly it's probably a good thing. They are and should remain 'for fun' models.

The problem is that when we actually do play apocolypse games the superheavies are bloody useless since they cost twice as much as they should.
   
Made in de
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller



Aachen

Ice_can wrote:
nekooni wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
But on topic a predator is hilariously butter like in it's resilience, less mobile than a russ, which are all at odds with numerous lore descriptions.
FW indexes atleast contain some viable models unlike most of the codex vehicals.


The mobility is what really pisses me off, to be honest. Just give them an Ignore Movement for Heavy Weapons already, make them more expensive in exchange. But let me feel like I'm fielding a mobile battle tank and not a short-ranged artillery piece.
Resilience is fine with me - they're upgunned Rhinos after all. But I shouldn't long for my Tallarn Leman Russ Commanders all game, ffs.

That's why I replaced mine with sicarans, they atleast don't feel like a let down.

Though they arn't exactlly making a Russ look bad and are still bad compaired to Russ commanders, but the can have some synergies and buffs stacked to make them work.


The thing is that, since I also play IG, I could just add a Supreme Command of 3 Tank Commanders, not worry about any positioning or additional buff characters, and still have a better tank squadron.
   
Made in gb
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





 Imateria wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Yeah the super big models are intentionally priced out of competitive play, and honestly it's probably a good thing. They are and should remain 'for fun' models.

The problem is that when we actually do play apocolypse games the superheavies are bloody useless since they cost twice as much as they should.


Realistically though, is a bit of a points drop on a Thunderhawk going to make a difference in an apocalypse size game? It'll still get blasted off the table by Warlord Titans turn one!

Which is fine, if you're just wanting a big fun battle with all the silly big toys.
   
Made in de
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Germany

A contemptor mortis dread with twin autocannons is better than the sicaran. Except at shooting that eldar flyer which can be -3 to hit. The contemptor mortis dread is also better than any predator.
   
 
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