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Made in us
Freaky Flayed One




Hi i was building lists with my space marines and i started looking at forge world relics and noticed that the dual twin las contempter is only 10 points more than a full las predator.

for 10 points you get the following upgrades:

2+ save (from 3)
5+ invul (from none)
ignore wounds on a 6+ (from none)
12 wounds (from 11)
2+ bs (from 3)
2+ ws (from 6)
7 str (from 6)

The downgrades include:

9" move (down from 12) although you cant ever get slower due to damage
you lose smoke launchers: -1 to hit from enemy once per game (but you have to give up shooting)
you must take another elite choice per relic contemptor if you take more than 1 (otherwise it just counts as a lord of war)
-----[For example if you take 2 contemptors you must have at least 2 "other" elites from the codex]

and finally im not sure but i think the contemptor can take our chapter tactics while the pred cant.

Can you guys let me know if im missing something here or if theres something special about the predator tank that im just not seeing?

   
Made in us
Member of the Malleus





WI

In this case I would go for the Contemptor simply due to the 5++, the 6+ FNP, and the added BS. Icing on the cake is able to take a Chapter Tactic.

Now if you really wanted to save points you can just take a Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought.

The movement is negated since neither really want to move.

The only upside I see to the predator is having three of them for the stratagem.

I make bad decisions and think they are good.

Team No Bueno
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Yes the Contemptor does get chapter tactics.
Gameplay wise there is little reason to take the pred over the Contemptor. The only reason not to use the Contemptor is that it is from forgeworld and therefore expensive.
   
Made in gb
Sword-Bearing Inquisitorial Crusader




A better question is why is the Contemptor so undercosted when the Thunderhawk Gunship is so overcosted?

Disclaimer - I am a Games Workshop Shareholder. 
   
Made in us
Freaky Flayed One




id say the easiest fix for the las pred would be a 20 point drop to 160

if you compare it to a 110 point las razorback then add 2 lascannons onto it for 50 extra then comes out to 160

then the pred would be trading the carry capacity of the razorback for 1 extra wound
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




AdmiralHalsey wrote:
A better question is why is the Contemptor so undercosted when the Thunderhawk Gunship is so overcosted?


Because if GW can't find it's --- with both hands then FW couldn't find it's --- with six months of preparation and a team of native guides?
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




AdmiralHalsey wrote:
A better question is why is the Contemptor so undercosted when the Thunderhawk Gunship is so overcosted?

Is it a matter of the Contemptor being undercosted, or the Predator simply being too expensive?

After all, you can get almost two LasBacks for the same price as a QuadPred, and Contemptors just require you to bring in another unit of the same Force Org.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Member of the Malleus





WI

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
A better question is why is the Contemptor so undercosted when the Thunderhawk Gunship is so overcosted?

Is it a matter of the Contemptor being undercosted, or the Predator simply being too expensive?

After all, you can get almost two LasBacks for the same price as a QuadPred, and Contemptors just require you to bring in another unit of the same Force Org.


Only the Relic Contemptor requires an additional (elite slot). The Mortis (heavy slot) is not actually a relic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/10 23:34:31


I make bad decisions and think they are good.

Team No Bueno
 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
A better question is why is the Contemptor so undercosted when the Thunderhawk Gunship is so overcosted?

Is it a matter of the Contemptor being undercosted, or the Predator simply being too expensive?


It's more about medium vehicles being in a bit of a rough spot right now. Predator pays for features that aren't relevant enough.
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





 Stux wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
A better question is why is the Contemptor so undercosted when the Thunderhawk Gunship is so overcosted?

Is it a matter of the Contemptor being undercosted, or the Predator simply being too expensive?


It's more about medium vehicles being in a bit of a rough spot right now. Predator pays for features that aren't relevant enough.


I don't think it pays for features that aren't relevant... I think it pays for features that don't exist.

Like, a Predator costs 20 points more than a Razorback, and gets +1 wound and no transport. It's not that it's paying for something that's not useful, it's just paying for something that isn't a thing.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





It's paying for the option to take an additional two heavy weapons. Unfortunately this isn't really relevant, and most people would want the guns spread over more bodies anyway, even if it costs a bit more.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





The Newman wrote:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
A better question is why is the Contemptor so undercosted when the Thunderhawk Gunship is so overcosted?


Because if GW can't find it's --- with both hands then FW couldn't find it's --- with six months of preparation and a team of native guides?


*sigh* I'm sorry, but it's not a model that deserves to be in matched play.

It's T9 W30 -1 to be hit with +12" to anything targeting it. That is incredibly hard to kill unless you have a superheavy.

   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





Yeah the super big models are intentionally priced out of competitive play, and honestly it's probably a good thing. They are and should remain 'for fun' models.
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





masterhobo wrote:
Yes the Contemptor does get chapter tactics.
Gameplay wise there is little reason to take the pred over the Contemptor. The only reason not to use the Contemptor is that it is from forgeworld and therefore expensive.


GW makes a plastic contemptor, and it's the work of moments to convert some twinlas arms from its very simple shoulder connection. I"d recommend getting the twin cognis lascannon bits from the Admech Balistarii - they're often for sale on the cheap because people typically build the Ironstrider Dragoon out of that kit and those bits are totally extra.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





The contemptor is a rare case where I strongly recommend going forgeworld, in spite of their GARBAGE quality control standards. The FW model is so much better than the plastic one that it’s embarrassing. That plastic kit should be $40 max. And, if you’re going to convert to lascannons anyway, it’ll cost about the same money.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Stux wrote:
Yeah the super big models are intentionally priced out of competitive play, and honestly it's probably a good thing. They are and should remain 'for fun' models.

Why should they remain bad just because you don't like them?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Quasistellar wrote:
The contemptor is a rare case where I strongly recommend going forgeworld, in spite of their GARBAGE quality control standards. The FW model is so much better than the plastic one that it’s embarrassing. That plastic kit should be $40 max. And, if you’re going to convert to lascannons anyway, it’ll cost about the same money.


You need to convert anyway because unless I'm wrong, FW doesn't sell a twin lascannon. Unless you have to buy the body (56) and 4x of the lascannon arms (16) for a total of 120USD for a fething dreadnought.

Versus, lets see... 60+10$ for two cognis lascannon bits from ebay.

For a little over half the price I'm gonna call it worthwhile.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

the_scotsman wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
The contemptor is a rare case where I strongly recommend going forgeworld, in spite of their GARBAGE quality control standards. The FW model is so much better than the plastic one that it’s embarrassing. That plastic kit should be $40 max. And, if you’re going to convert to lascannons anyway, it’ll cost about the same money.


You need to convert anyway because unless I'm wrong, FW doesn't sell a twin lascannon. Unless you have to buy the body (56) and 4x of the lascannon arms (16) for a total of 120USD for a fething dreadnought.

Versus, lets see... 60+10$ for two cognis lascannon bits from ebay.

For a little over half the price I'm gonna call it worthwhile.


The Contemptor Lascannon arm from ForgeWorld is a twin Lascannon.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
The contemptor is a rare case where I strongly recommend going forgeworld, in spite of their GARBAGE quality control standards. The FW model is so much better than the plastic one that it’s embarrassing. That plastic kit should be $40 max. And, if you’re going to convert to lascannons anyway, it’ll cost about the same money.


You need to convert anyway because unless I'm wrong, FW doesn't sell a twin lascannon. Unless you have to buy the body (56) and 4x of the lascannon arms (16) for a total of 120USD for a fething dreadnought.

Versus, lets see... 60+10$ for two cognis lascannon bits from ebay.

For a little over half the price I'm gonna call it worthwhile.


The Contemptor Lascannon arm from ForgeWorld is a twin Lascannon.

Even then, I don't think most opponents would actually care as long as you paid the points for it. Personally I think the horizontal TL weapons don't look as good as the vertical ones, which is partly the reason I gravitated towards the TL Heavy Bolter on my Contemptors (on top of it being cheap and the second melee weapon being completely unnecessary).

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
The contemptor is a rare case where I strongly recommend going forgeworld, in spite of their GARBAGE quality control standards. The FW model is so much better than the plastic one that it’s embarrassing. That plastic kit should be $40 max. And, if you’re going to convert to lascannons anyway, it’ll cost about the same money.


You need to convert anyway because unless I'm wrong, FW doesn't sell a twin lascannon. Unless you have to buy the body (56) and 4x of the lascannon arms (16) for a total of 120USD for a fething dreadnought.

Versus, lets see... 60+10$ for two cognis lascannon bits from ebay.

For a little over half the price I'm gonna call it worthwhile.


The Contemptor Lascannon arm from ForgeWorld is a twin Lascannon.


Ah, OK, that brings it a little closer to parity. A paltry 90$ for your greeble-covered hunk of bubbly miscast sub china-quality resin you'll spend 7 hours painstakingly removing the mould lines from each little layer on the huge chest eagle. Why for just the price of my daily cup of coffee for a month I could have this premium product.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




the_scotsman wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
The contemptor is a rare case where I strongly recommend going forgeworld, in spite of their GARBAGE quality control standards. The FW model is so much better than the plastic one that it’s embarrassing. That plastic kit should be $40 max. And, if you’re going to convert to lascannons anyway, it’ll cost about the same money.


You need to convert anyway because unless I'm wrong, FW doesn't sell a twin lascannon. Unless you have to buy the body (56) and 4x of the lascannon arms (16) for a total of 120USD for a fething dreadnought.

Versus, lets see... 60+10$ for two cognis lascannon bits from ebay.

For a little over half the price I'm gonna call it worthwhile.


The Contemptor Lascannon arm from ForgeWorld is a twin Lascannon.


Ah, OK, that brings it a little closer to parity. A paltry 90$ for your greeble-covered hunk of bubbly miscast sub china-quality resin you'll spend 7 hours painstakingly removing the mould lines from each little layer on the huge chest eagle. Why for just the price of my daily cup of coffee for a month I could have this premium product.


Depending where you work you'll have one of them fancy coffee machines that does those fancy drinks. I work at a university just recently and they have one to the point I needed to take a break from coffee

It sounds like you should find another job to get that easily accessible coffee.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




the_scotsman wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
The contemptor is a rare case where I strongly recommend going forgeworld, in spite of their GARBAGE quality control standards. The FW model is so much better than the plastic one that it’s embarrassing. That plastic kit should be $40 max. And, if you’re going to convert to lascannons anyway, it’ll cost about the same money.


You need to convert anyway because unless I'm wrong, FW doesn't sell a twin lascannon. Unless you have to buy the body (56) and 4x of the lascannon arms (16) for a total of 120USD for a fething dreadnought.

Versus, lets see... 60+10$ for two cognis lascannon bits from ebay.

For a little over half the price I'm gonna call it worthwhile.


Or you could already own Centurions that you didn't put Lascannons on because it's a terribly priced weapon on them and have 6 of the things just lying around...
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






The Predator (despite a minor reduction based on weapons) is still a really tough sell. It still needs an actual points drop, OR it needs to simply get the same "move half, shoot turret twice" rule that the Russ and Fire Prism have. Dreadnoughts in general were big winners from CA, the contemptor being particularly good (shockingly actually given its stats).

As mentioned above, just ignore the plastic Contemptor (the most insultingly bad plastic kit GW has released in 10-15 years) and you're good to go.

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Yeah the super big models are intentionally priced out of competitive play, and honestly it's probably a good thing. They are and should remain 'for fun' models.

Why should they remain bad just because you don't like them?


It's not about personal preference.

The THGS is just a giant rock (51 lascannon shots to bring it down) that breaks the standard meta.

It can beat out a Castellan, which is undercosted by a bit. It's also tougher than the Castellan sans relics / stratagems (which are not pointed). That means at a basic level it should cost more than a castellan for being tougher and potentially more damaging. That can easily put us in the 800-900 point range.

On top of doing that it can disembark half an army right in your face. What's the cost of delivering 3 rhinos worth of models in a very hard to kill model than can put them within a few inches? Certainly more than 210 points.


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Yeah the super big models are intentionally priced out of competitive play, and honestly it's probably a good thing. They are and should remain 'for fun' models.

Why should they remain bad just because you don't like them?


It's not about personal preference.

The THGS is just a giant rock (51 lascannon shots to bring it down) that breaks the standard meta.

It can beat out a Castellan, which is undercosted by a bit. It's also tougher than the Castellan sans relics / stratagems (which are not pointed). That means at a basic level it should cost more than a castellan for being tougher and potentially more damaging. That can easily put us in the 800-900 point range.

On top of doing that it can disembark half an army right in your face. What's the cost of delivering 3 rhinos worth of models in a very hard to kill model than can put them within a few inches? Certainly more than 210 points.


You aren't serious are you? More damaging? Definitely not for the price.

And yeah the thing delivers half your army, but then the Thunderhawk is literally your other half.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 Daedalus81 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Yeah the super big models are intentionally priced out of competitive play, and honestly it's probably a good thing. They are and should remain 'for fun' models.

Why should they remain bad just because you don't like them?


It's not about personal preference.

The THGS is just a giant rock (51 lascannon shots to bring it down) that breaks the standard meta.

It can beat out a Castellan, which is undercosted by a bit. It's also tougher than the Castellan sans relics / stratagems (which are not pointed). That means at a basic level it should cost more than a castellan for being tougher and potentially more damaging. That can easily put us in the 800-900 point range.

On top of doing that it can disembark half an army right in your face. What's the cost of delivering 3 rhinos worth of models in a very hard to kill model than can put them within a few inches? Certainly more than 210 points.



The Thunderhawk has pathetic damage output compared to other superheavies of comparable cost. It's Turbo Laser Destructor is a D3 shot S16 2D6 damage weapon. A Shadowsword (Guard Tank) is a 3D3 shot weapon with the same profile. For less than the cost of the Thunderhawk, you could take THREE Shadowswords, and do 9D3 shots... 9x the damage of the Thunderhawk. The 3 Shadowswords would also be 78 T8 3+ wounds.... more survivable than the -1 to hit grants the 30 T9 wounds from the TH I imagine. The Shadowsword is also considered worse than the Knight Castellan because of it's lack of invulnerable save... you could literally have two Knight Castellans for less than the price of the TH. It's not a very useful model.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Horst wrote:


The Thunderhawk has pathetic damage output compared to other superheavies of comparable cost. It's Turbo Laser Destructor is a D3 shot S16 2D6 damage weapon. A Shadowsword (Guard Tank) is a 3D3 shot weapon with the same profile. For less than the cost of the Thunderhawk, you could take THREE Shadowswords, and do 9D3 shots... 9x the damage of the Thunderhawk. The 3 Shadowswords would also be 78 T8 3+ wounds.... more survivable than the -1 to hit grants the 30 T9 wounds from the TH I imagine. The Shadowsword is also considered worse than the Knight Castellan because of it's lack of invulnerable save... you could literally have two Knight Castellans for less than the price of the TH. It's not a very useful model.


Relative damage (BS2 helps a bit) - not good damage for the cost, because it's also a big transport. Those three SS can 83% damage to the TH (24 wounds), but do 75% of the damage (42 wounds) needed to kill two Castellans. Nearly twice as durable - that's the difference -1 and T9 makes.

Make an Ork army that can tackle normal lists and still have tools to take down a TH without relying on 18 traktor kannons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/11 19:45:12


   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





I'm not talking about Thunderhawks specifically. I'm talking about anything bigger than a Knight.

Something with T9 and 30W leads to skew games that aren't much fun.

If they could be price balanced perfectly that's fine. But given that's impossible, I'd rather err on the side of underperforming for these sorts of units. Where taking them is something done for wacky or narrative games and not for competitive.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Horst wrote:


The Thunderhawk has pathetic damage output compared to other superheavies of comparable cost. It's Turbo Laser Destructor is a D3 shot S16 2D6 damage weapon. A Shadowsword (Guard Tank) is a 3D3 shot weapon with the same profile. For less than the cost of the Thunderhawk, you could take THREE Shadowswords, and do 9D3 shots... 9x the damage of the Thunderhawk. The 3 Shadowswords would also be 78 T8 3+ wounds.... more survivable than the -1 to hit grants the 30 T9 wounds from the TH I imagine. The Shadowsword is also considered worse than the Knight Castellan because of it's lack of invulnerable save... you could literally have two Knight Castellans for less than the price of the TH. It's not a very useful model.


Relative damage (BS2 helps a bit) - not good damage for the cost, because it's also a big transport. Those three SS can 83% damage to the TH (24 wounds), but do 75% of the damage (42 wounds) needed to kill two Castellans. Nearly twice as durable - that's the difference -1 and T9 makes.

Make an Ork army that can tackle normal lists and still have tools to take down a TH without relying on 18 traktor kannons.

Uh you don't NEED to take down a Thunderhawk. It costs more than half of the army and doesn't have a lot of weapons. It isn't a threat you need to deal with compared to Knights.

That's an absolutely ridiculous need on your end. Especially when those "18 traktor kannons" are an absolute pittance.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Yeah the super big models are intentionally priced out of competitive play, and honestly it's probably a good thing. They are and should remain 'for fun' models.

Why should they remain bad just because you don't like them?

Because they'd break the bloody game if they were implemented. The reason why 40k is at such a bad state for the past years is because apocalypse creeped into what was designed to be a skirmish wargame and is fundamentally incapable of balancing apocalypse style matches. Throwing in competitive Thunderhawks would be akin to dumping kerosene on the fire.

As for the Contemptor, it's the better choice every time. Mortis Contemptors can actually move and remain accurate with a 2+ BS while the Predator will degrade to a fairly limiting 4+ if it re-positions. Mortis Contemptors loaded up with lascannons can be aggressive and constantly march forward, while Predators will be best served as a static gunline.

“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
 
   
 
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