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Hi i was building lists with my space marines and i started looking at forge world relics and noticed that the dual twin las contempter is only 10 points more than a full las predator.

for 10 points you get the following upgrades:

2+ save (from 3)
5+ invul (from none)
ignore wounds on a 6+ (from none)
12 wounds (from 11)
2+ bs (from 3)
2+ ws (from 6)
7 str (from 6)

The downgrades include:

9" move (down from 12) although you cant ever get slower due to damage
you lose smoke launchers: -1 to hit from enemy once per game (but you have to give up shooting)
you must take another elite choice per relic contemptor if you take more than 1 (otherwise it just counts as a lord of war)
-----[For example if you take 2 contemptors you must have at least 2 "other" elites from the codex]

and finally im not sure but i think the contemptor can take our chapter tactics while the pred cant.

Can you guys let me know if im missing something here or if theres something special about the predator tank that im just not seeing?

In this case I would go for the Contemptor simply due to the 5++, the 6+ FNP, and the added BS. Icing on the cake is able to take a Chapter Tactic.

Now if you really wanted to save points you can just take a Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought.

The movement is negated since neither really want to move.

The only upside I see to the predator is having three of them for the stratagem.

Yes the Contemptor does get chapter tactics.
Gameplay wise there is little reason to take the pred over the Contemptor. The only reason not to use the Contemptor is that it is from forgeworld and therefore expensive.

A better question is why is the Contemptor so undercosted when the Thunderhawk Gunship is so overcosted?

id say the easiest fix for the las pred would be a 20 point drop to 160

if you compare it to a 110 point las razorback then add 2 lascannons onto it for 50 extra then comes out to 160

then the pred would be trading the carry capacity of the razorback for 1 extra wound

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
A better question is why is the Contemptor so undercosted when the Thunderhawk Gunship is so overcosted?

Because if GW can't find it's --- with both hands then FW couldn't find it's --- with six months of preparation and a team of native guides?

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
A better question is why is the Contemptor so undercosted when the Thunderhawk Gunship is so overcosted?

Is it a matter of the Contemptor being undercosted, or the Predator simply being too expensive?

After all, you can get almost two LasBacks for the same price as a QuadPred, and Contemptors just require you to bring in another unit of the same Force Org.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
A better question is why is the Contemptor so undercosted when the Thunderhawk Gunship is so overcosted?

Is it a matter of the Contemptor being undercosted, or the Predator simply being too expensive?

After all, you can get almost two LasBacks for the same price as a QuadPred, and Contemptors just require you to bring in another unit of the same Force Org.

Only the Relic Contemptor requires an additional (elite slot). The Mortis (heavy slot) is not actually a relic.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
A better question is why is the Contemptor so undercosted when the Thunderhawk Gunship is so overcosted?

Is it a matter of the Contemptor being undercosted, or the Predator simply being too expensive?

It's more about medium vehicles being in a bit of a rough spot right now. Predator pays for features that aren't relevant enough.

 Stux wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
A better question is why is the Contemptor so undercosted when the Thunderhawk Gunship is so overcosted?

Is it a matter of the Contemptor being undercosted, or the Predator simply being too expensive?

It's more about medium vehicles being in a bit of a rough spot right now. Predator pays for features that aren't relevant enough.

I don't think it pays for features that aren't relevant... I think it pays for features that don't exist.

Like, a Predator costs 20 points more than a Razorback, and gets +1 wound and no transport. It's not that it's paying for something that's not useful, it's just paying for something that isn't a thing.

It's paying for the option to take an additional two heavy weapons. Unfortunately this isn't really relevant, and most people would want the guns spread over more bodies anyway, even if it costs a bit more.

The Newman wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
A better question is why is the Contemptor so undercosted when the Thunderhawk Gunship is so overcosted?

Because if GW can't find it's --- with both hands then FW couldn't find it's --- with six months of preparation and a team of native guides?

*sigh* I'm sorry, but it's not a model that deserves to be in matched play.

It's T9 W30 -1 to be hit with +12" to anything targeting it. That is incredibly hard to kill unless you have a superheavy.

Yeah the super big models are intentionally priced out of competitive play, and honestly it's probably a good thing. They are and should remain 'for fun' models.

masterhobo wrote:
Yes the Contemptor does get chapter tactics.
Gameplay wise there is little reason to take the pred over the Contemptor. The only reason not to use the Contemptor is that it is from forgeworld and therefore expensive.

GW makes a plastic contemptor, and it's the work of moments to convert some twinlas arms from its very simple shoulder connection. I"d recommend getting the twin cognis lascannon bits from the Admech Balistarii - they're often for sale on the cheap because people typically build the Ironstrider Dragoon out of that kit and those bits are totally extra.

The contemptor is a rare case where I strongly recommend going forgeworld, in spite of their GARBAGE quality control standards. The FW model is so much better than the plastic one that it’s embarrassing. That plastic kit should be $40 max. And, if you’re going to convert to lascannons anyway, it’ll cost about the same money.

 Stux wrote:
Yeah the super big models are intentionally priced out of competitive play, and honestly it's probably a good thing. They are and should remain 'for fun' models.

Why should they remain bad just because you don't like them?

Quasistellar wrote:
The contemptor is a rare case where I strongly recommend going forgeworld, in spite of their GARBAGE quality control standards. The FW model is so much better than the plastic one that it’s embarrassing. That plastic kit should be $40 max. And, if you’re going to convert to lascannons anyway, it’ll cost about the same money.

You need to convert anyway because unless I'm wrong, FW doesn't sell a twin lascannon. Unless you have to buy the body (56) and 4x of the lascannon arms (16) for a total of 120USD for a fething dreadnought.

Versus, lets see... 60+10$ for two cognis lascannon bits from ebay.

For a little over half the price I'm gonna call it worthwhile.

the_scotsman wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
The contemptor is a rare case where I strongly recommend going forgeworld, in spite of their GARBAGE quality control standards. The FW model is so much better than the plastic one that it’s embarrassing. That plastic kit should be $40 max. And, if you’re going to convert to lascannons anyway, it’ll cost about the same money.

You need to convert anyway because unless I'm wrong, FW doesn't sell a twin lascannon. Unless you have to buy the body (56) and 4x of the lascannon arms (16) for a total of 120USD for a fething dreadnought.

Versus, lets see... 60+10$ for two cognis lascannon bits from ebay.

For a little over half the price I'm gonna call it worthwhile.

The Contemptor Lascannon arm from ForgeWorld is a twin Lascannon.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
The contemptor is a rare case where I strongly recommend going forgeworld, in spite of their GARBAGE quality control standards. The FW model is so much better than the plastic one that it’s embarrassing. That plastic kit should be $40 max. And, if you’re going to convert to lascannons anyway, it’ll cost about the same money.

You need to convert anyway because unless I'm wrong, FW doesn't sell a twin lascannon. Unless you have to buy the body (56) and 4x of the lascannon arms (16) for a total of 120USD for a fething dreadnought.

Versus, lets see... 60+10$ for two cognis lascannon bits from ebay.

For a little over half the price I'm gonna call it worthwhile.

The Contemptor Lascannon arm from ForgeWorld is a twin Lascannon.

Even then, I don't think most opponents would actually care as long as you paid the points for it. Personally I think the horizontal TL weapons don't look as good as the vertical ones, which is partly the reason I gravitated towards the TL Heavy Bolter on my Contemptors (on top of it being cheap and the second melee weapon being completely unnecessary).

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
The contemptor is a rare case where I strongly recommend going forgeworld, in spite of their GARBAGE quality control standards. The FW model is so much better than the plastic one that it’s embarrassing. That plastic kit should be $40 max. And, if you’re going to convert to lascannons anyway, it’ll cost about the same money.

You need to convert anyway because unless I'm wrong, FW doesn't sell a twin lascannon. Unless you have to buy the body (56) and 4x of the lascannon arms (16) for a total of 120USD for a fething dreadnought.

Versus, lets see... 60+10$ for two cognis lascannon bits from ebay.

For a little over half the price I'm gonna call it worthwhile.

The Contemptor Lascannon arm from ForgeWorld is a twin Lascannon.

Ah, OK, that brings it a little closer to parity. A paltry 90$ for your greeble-covered hunk of bubbly miscast sub china-quality resin you'll spend 7 hours painstakingly removing the mould lines from each little layer on the huge chest eagle. Why for just the price of my daily cup of coffee for a month I could have this premium product.

the_scotsman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
The contemptor is a rare case where I strongly recommend going forgeworld, in spite of their GARBAGE quality control standards. The FW model is so much better than the plastic one that it’s embarrassing. That plastic kit should be $40 max. And, if you’re going to convert to lascannons anyway, it’ll cost about the same money.

You need to convert anyway because unless I'm wrong, FW doesn't sell a twin lascannon. Unless you have to buy the body (56) and 4x of the lascannon arms (16) for a total of 120USD for a fething dreadnought.

Versus, lets see... 60+10$ for two cognis lascannon bits from ebay.

For a little over half the price I'm gonna call it worthwhile.

The Contemptor Lascannon arm from ForgeWorld is a twin Lascannon.

Ah, OK, that brings it a little closer to parity. A paltry 90$ for your greeble-covered hunk of bubbly miscast sub china-quality resin you'll spend 7 hours painstakingly removing the mould lines from each little layer on the huge chest eagle. Why for just the price of my daily cup of coffee for a month I could have this premium product.

Depending where you work you'll have one of them fancy coffee machines that does those fancy drinks. I work at a university just recently and they have one to the point I needed to take a break from coffee

It sounds like you should find another job to get that easily accessible coffee.

the_scotsman wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
The contemptor is a rare case where I strongly recommend going forgeworld, in spite of their GARBAGE quality control standards. The FW model is so much better than the plastic one that it’s embarrassing. That plastic kit should be $40 max. And, if you’re going to convert to lascannons anyway, it’ll cost about the same money.

You need to convert anyway because unless I'm wrong, FW doesn't sell a twin lascannon. Unless you have to buy the body (56) and 4x of the lascannon arms (16) for a total of 120USD for a fething dreadnought.

Versus, lets see... 60+10$ for two cognis lascannon bits from ebay.

For a little over half the price I'm gonna call it worthwhile.

Or you could already own Centurions that you didn't put Lascannons on because it's a terribly priced weapon on them and have 6 of the things just lying around...

The Predator (despite a minor reduction based on weapons) is still a really tough sell. It still needs an actual points drop, OR it needs to simply get the same "move half, shoot turret twice" rule that the Russ and Fire Prism have. Dreadnoughts in general were big winners from CA, the contemptor being particularly good (shockingly actually given its stats).

As mentioned above, just ignore the plastic Contemptor (the most insultingly bad plastic kit GW has released in 10-15 years) and you're good to go.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Yeah the super big models are intentionally priced out of competitive play, and honestly it's probably a good thing. They are and should remain 'for fun' models.

Why should they remain bad just because you don't like them?

It's not about personal preference.

The THGS is just a giant rock (51 lascannon shots to bring it down) that breaks the standard meta.

It can beat out a Castellan, which is undercosted by a bit. It's also tougher than the Castellan sans relics / stratagems (which are not pointed). That means at a basic level it should cost more than a castellan for being tougher and potentially more damaging. That can easily put us in the 800-900 point range.

On top of doing that it can disembark half an army right in your face. What's the cost of delivering 3 rhinos worth of models in a very hard to kill model than can put them within a few inches? Certainly more than 210 points.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Yeah the super big models are intentionally priced out of competitive play, and honestly it's probably a good thing. They are and should remain 'for fun' models.

Why should they remain bad just because you don't like them?

It's not about personal preference.

The THGS is just a giant rock (51 lascannon shots to bring it down) that breaks the standard meta.

It can beat out a Castellan, which is undercosted by a bit. It's also tougher than the Castellan sans relics / stratagems (which are not pointed). That means at a basic level it should cost more than a castellan for being tougher and potentially more damaging. That can easily put us in the 800-900 point range.

On top of doing that it can disembark half an army right in your face. What's the cost of delivering 3 rhinos worth of models in a very hard to kill model than can put them within a few inches? Certainly more than 210 points.

You aren't serious are you? More damaging? Definitely not for the price.

And yeah the thing delivers half your army, but then the Thunderhawk is literally your other half.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Yeah the super big models are intentionally priced out of competitive play, and honestly it's probably a good thing. They are and should remain 'for fun' models.

Why should they remain bad just because you don't like them?

It's not about personal preference.

The THGS is just a giant rock (51 lascannon shots to bring it down) that breaks the standard meta.

It can beat out a Castellan, which is undercosted by a bit. It's also tougher than the Castellan sans relics / stratagems (which are not pointed). That means at a basic level it should cost more than a castellan for being tougher and potentially more damaging. That can easily put us in the 800-900 point range.

On top of doing that it can disembark half an army right in your face. What's the cost of delivering 3 rhinos worth of models in a very hard to kill model than can put them within a few inches? Certainly more than 210 points.

The Thunderhawk has pathetic damage output compared to other superheavies of comparable cost. It's Turbo Laser Destructor is a D3 shot S16 2D6 damage weapon. A Shadowsword (Guard Tank) is a 3D3 shot weapon with the same profile. For less than the cost of the Thunderhawk, you could take THREE Shadowswords, and do 9D3 shots... 9x the damage of the Thunderhawk. The 3 Shadowswords would also be 78 T8 3+ wounds.... more survivable than the -1 to hit grants the 30 T9 wounds from the TH I imagine. The Shadowsword is also considered worse than the Knight Castellan because of it's lack of invulnerable save... you could literally have two Knight Castellans for less than the price of the TH. It's not a very useful model.

 Horst wrote:


The Thunderhawk has pathetic damage output compared to other superheavies of comparable cost. It's Turbo Laser Destructor is a D3 shot S16 2D6 damage weapon. A Shadowsword (Guard Tank) is a 3D3 shot weapon with the same profile. For less than the cost of the Thunderhawk, you could take THREE Shadowswords, and do 9D3 shots... 9x the damage of the Thunderhawk. The 3 Shadowswords would also be 78 T8 3+ wounds.... more survivable than the -1 to hit grants the 30 T9 wounds from the TH I imagine. The Shadowsword is also considered worse than the Knight Castellan because of it's lack of invulnerable save... you could literally have two Knight Castellans for less than the price of the TH. It's not a very useful model.

Relative damage (BS2 helps a bit) - not good damage for the cost, because it's also a big transport. Those three SS can 83% damage to the TH (24 wounds), but do 75% of the damage (42 wounds) needed to kill two Castellans. Nearly twice as durable - that's the difference -1 and T9 makes.

Make an Ork army that can tackle normal lists and still have tools to take down a TH without relying on 18 traktor kannons.

I'm not talking about Thunderhawks specifically. I'm talking about anything bigger than a Knight.

Something with T9 and 30W leads to skew games that aren't much fun.

If they could be price balanced perfectly that's fine. But given that's impossible, I'd rather err on the side of underperforming for these sorts of units. Where taking them is something done for wacky or narrative games and not for competitive.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Horst wrote:


The Thunderhawk has pathetic damage output compared to other superheavies of comparable cost. It's Turbo Laser Destructor is a D3 shot S16 2D6 damage weapon. A Shadowsword (Guard Tank) is a 3D3 shot weapon with the same profile. For less than the cost of the Thunderhawk, you could take THREE Shadowswords, and do 9D3 shots... 9x the damage of the Thunderhawk. The 3 Shadowswords would also be 78 T8 3+ wounds.... more survivable than the -1 to hit grants the 30 T9 wounds from the TH I imagine. The Shadowsword is also considered worse than the Knight Castellan because of it's lack of invulnerable save... you could literally have two Knight Castellans for less than the price of the TH. It's not a very useful model.

Relative damage (BS2 helps a bit) - not good damage for the cost, because it's also a big transport. Those three SS can 83% damage to the TH (24 wounds), but do 75% of the damage (42 wounds) needed to kill two Castellans. Nearly twice as durable - that's the difference -1 and T9 makes.

Make an Ork army that can tackle normal lists and still have tools to take down a TH without relying on 18 traktor kannons.

Uh you don't NEED to take down a Thunderhawk. It costs more than half of the army and doesn't have a lot of weapons. It isn't a threat you need to deal with compared to Knights.

That's an absolutely ridiculous need on your end. Especially when those "18 traktor kannons" are an absolute pittance.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Yeah the super big models are intentionally priced out of competitive play, and honestly it's probably a good thing. They are and should remain 'for fun' models.

Why should they remain bad just because you don't like them?

Because they'd break the bloody game if they were implemented. The reason why 40k is at such a bad state for the past years is because apocalypse creeped into what was designed to be a skirmish wargame and is fundamentally incapable of balancing apocalypse style matches. Throwing in competitive Thunderhawks would be akin to dumping kerosene on the fire.

As for the Contemptor, it's the better choice every time. Mortis Contemptors can actually move and remain accurate with a 2+ BS while the Predator will degrade to a fairly limiting 4+ if it re-positions. Mortis Contemptors loaded up with lascannons can be aggressive and constantly march forward, while Predators will be best served as a static gunline.