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 techsoldaten wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:
Yeah Sisters and Guard shouldn't be getting a bonus for their bolters. It's not as fluffy for them and they get other stuff.
Besides, the finest paintbrush is always going to paint a better masterpiece in the hands of a master artist rather than a novice painter.
Bolters were DESIGNED to be used by Astartes. Nuns and non-super human militia shouldn't be as effective with them.

And Bolter disciple is meant for Astates. There need to be "normal" bolters somewhere

-

Please cite where the Bolt Gun was made for orignally Marines? Didn't the Thunder Warriors and other pre Marine forces use them? In the Actual Lore the Sister Boltgun is a superior weapon.

Whilst I think having some form of improvment for Marines is warrented - this is the usual My own faction wants a huge boost.

Sisters of Battle, Sisters of Silence and Custodes are not fething Militia. I woud have hoped someone with any passing knowledge of the universe would have known that.

Also it's hardly "bloated", but I don't think most people would argue against consolidation of certain codices. Bloat is what 7th was and we hadn't near hit that just yet.

Looks at the spawling mass of codexes, supplements and super special rules, the vastly bloated range of models including flanderised crap and Centurions and laughs.

It's a little irritating to hear about this super special sacred Sister Bolter.

If you are going to argue there's a fluff reason for Sisters being on-par with a Space Marine with a gun, you will have to do better than superior craftsmanship. The relationship between fluff and rules is tenuous. There's all kinds of references in the Lore to different versions of power armor being faster, slower, superior, etc. In game terms, that means absolutely nothing, it's always a 3+ save. Or how Salamaders are noticeably slower than other Marines. In game terms, that means absolutely nothing, they move exactly the same as every other Chapter.

Giving Sisters Bolter Discipline would actually be a nerf to Tacticals. The point of this rule does not appear to be to buff the gun, but some of the people capable of shooting it. Who are covered in devices that augment their ability to kill things to superhuman levels.

So are Custodes if you want to pretend there is a fluf reason for Marines to get super special rules.

For the nine millionth fething time I didn't say I wanted the Sisters (or the Custodes or ALL the others I listed ) to have the new GW super special Marine rule I said if they were going to go OP like with the current suggestion on this thread then they should.

Also people should stop falsly naming threads like "Power" armour when its just yet another Buff Marines thread.

I think you're making a much bigger deal out of this then it needs to be.

Regardless of fluff, marines as a table top army aren't doing so well. So why make a big stink about a couple extra bolt rounds flying around. The rule is decent but I don't think it's been thought through too too well.

I've been giving this a bit of thought while reviewing others' experiences with the Beta rule and now firmly believe that the final version NEEDS to provide actual extra shots, rather than just extending the existing RF condition.

Most of the reviews and playtests I've seen don't make a huge difference. The only one I've seen so far that does had a list specifically designed to max out shots by taking units with the right Keywords and keeping them outside 12", but STILL lost the game anyway

So I want to amend/reinforce my original proposal/hope to this:
Rapid Fire Bolt weapons get +1 shot if stationary, at half range or Keyword Terminator, Biker, Vehicle or Centurion
I would also not have this replace the RF rules, but add to them. So weapons still get double shots at half range, but then also get +1 shot.

So a Bolter Marine gets 2 shots if stationary outside 12", or 3 shots if within 12" (double +1)
A Stormbolter Termie gets 3 shots all the time, or 5 shots within 12" (again double +1)

The reason I am backtracking on my original idea to have this affect all Bolt weapons is due to the "spirit" of the rule. Apparently, Rapid Fire was originally created JUST for Bolter Marines way back in the day and eventually made a standard weapon type for all factions. So it would seem that the intent of GW is to invoke this old rule.
So while Assault Bolters, Pistols and Heavy Bolt weapons could use a bit of love too, I'm fine with the final version just affecting Rapid Fire Bolters, because the POINT is to show the proficiency in which all Marines can use that type of weapon.
Other weapon types probably aren't used enough by enough Marines for any superior training to affect the game. The same way Sisters, Guard and Custodes don't get the Bolter Discipline rule at all.

But I'd still like there to be a Caveat in the final rule that gives Heavy Bolter some kind of boost. Even if Bolter Discipline stays as-is, I'd love to see HBs called out specifically as changing from Heavy 3 to RF2 (which would end up being 4 shots most of the time due to the Beta rule conditions)
If, however, Bolter Discipline becomes +1 shot to RF weapons as I hope, HBs could still be changed to RF2 and be worth taking. Imagine an Attack bike with a RF2 HB getting 3 shots outside half range (but no -1 hit penalty) or 5 shots within 18" (double +1), in addition to the TwinBolter shots! That makes it potentially a worthwhile unit

Or a Razorback with a RF4 Twin HB. That could actually be a rival to the Twin Assault cannon, where you trade the S6 and 12 shots for longer range and no -1 penalty for moving.
If they just add this to the Beta rule as-is, that's 8 shots at 36". With the +1 shot version, you get 5 shots outside half range, 9 shots within.

-

I'm down with your change to the bolter discipline rule, (+1 attack instead of longer rapid fire) but I can't really support RF2 heavy bolters. It feels weird and has wonky interactions with Guard. Heavy bolters are meant to be long range suppressive weapons but RF2 just makes them super stormbolters which I just don't like. If you must change it just make it Heavy 4 or something. But that's just my 2 cents.

On another note, has anyone considered giving SIA to all marines? Mostly just food for thought, but I don't see any reason why DW should have a monopoly on good bolters and they seem to be doing all right. It's not like marines are common in the first place. Plus, I'm sure Grey Knights could use some extra long range punch.

 Mr Morden wrote:
So are Custodes if you want to pretend there is a fluf reason for Marines to get super special rules.

The purpose of the rule is to represent mastery of the weapon, not a property inherent in the weapon itself. Marines are not the only users of bolt weapons, just like how the Black Templars share many elements of extreme zeal with the Sisters, but they are particularly prominent users.

Custodes are a fair argument, although I'd say that their superior skills are accounted for both in their 2+ BS and the fact that their ranged weapons (which are all unique to them) have quite powerful stats.

The only other change I would make is to have the rule include Fallen Angels. Have the rule be for Adeptus Astartes, Heretic Astartes, and Fallen. I like the idea of it changing RF1 to RF2(RF3 and so on and so forth), but even the current rule is fine by me, just as long as it affects ALL Space Marines.

There are numerous reasons why Sisters should not have this rule. It has been discussed at length and I won't go further into it.

I'm not sure that this change doesn't just help the strong units even more by increasing the total possible damage (rather than the GW buff that reduces the drawbacks of poor positioning) but it's interesting that it gives a lesser bonus to the stormbolter.
I guess a concern would be that it front-loads the damage more - units hitting at long range or deepstriking in get better with their first shots whereas the current beta rule kicks in as the game progresses.

There is also forgeworlds idea of bolter discipline to consider - tactical marines (and their equivalents) get it, and no-one else.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
There are numerous reasons why Sisters should not have this rule. It has been discussed at length and I won't go further into it.

I'm personally hoping few people email GW for this. Gunline sisters are already a trap and they don't need to be pushed further into it, they need fixes elsewhere to push their assault theme and not to be an army of half-assed T3 tactical marines for the next couple of decades.
And people need to stop using fluff to argue rules balance.

Dandelion wrote:
I'm down with your change to the bolter discipline rule, (+1 attack instead of longer rapid fire) but I can't really support RF2 heavy bolters. It feels weird and has wonky interactions with Guard. Heavy bolters are meant to be long range suppressive weapons but RF2 just makes them super stormbolters which I just don't like. If you must change it just make it Heavy 4 or something. But that's just my 2 cents.

Bolter Discipline is for Astartes only, so the only interaction this would have for Guard is making HBs better at killing them. It makes sense that Guard would still treat a HB as a Heavy Weapon, while Marines would be able to use it more like the giant Boltgun that it is.

I find it odd that many Marine platforms only have Heavy weapon options*. Making HBs RF2 would give so, so many platforms a different viable option. Razorbacks & Attack bikes being examples that immediately come to mind.
Since Rapid Fire was originally just for Marines, giving them a "Heavy" RF weapon just FEELS right. Bolter Discipline can easily do this with a single sentence:
"Heavy Bolters count as Rapid Fire 2 if used by a model with this ability and Twin Heavy Bolters count as Rapid Fire 4"



*Although this is likely due to my bias as an Eldar player. Almost all our platforms that can take from a Heavy Weapon list can also take Shuricannons, which are Assault weapons and just bigger versions of the standard Shuriken Catapults that Infantry take.
HBs being the same "type" as a Boltgun has a certain satisfaction to it.

A.T. wrote:
I'm not sure that this change doesn't just help the strong units even more by increasing the total possible damage (rather than the GW buff that reduces the drawbacks of poor positioning) but it's interesting that it gives a lesser bonus to the stormbolter.

I agree to a point as the strong models will always be stronger with any blanket change.
But the reason why +1 shot is such an elegant (IMO) solution is that it proportionately does more for just Bolt gun models than Stormbolter/Twinbolter ones. +1 shot on a 1 shot model is a 100% increase. +1 shot on a 2 shot model is only a 50% increase

So 10 Bolter Marines get to double their output at range, while 5 Stormbolter Vets only get 5 more total shots.
It's even better in RF range as those 10 Marines go from 20 shot as now, to 30 shots. 5 SB Vet go from 20 shots now to 25 shots

So the point of adding +1 shot is to encourage more models, but not necessarily Bolters with more starting shots.
But, of course, we still want Termies, Bikes & vehicles to always get the +1 shot because they need the help and this rule gives them the fell of the old Relentless rules.

-

Whilst I have different ideas about the core astartes bolter statline, i do think they should have an alt fire mode for hordes. Nothing complex, just

Range 24", Rapid Fire 2, Str 3, Dmg 1, Sv 0

Using the exploding rounds as air bursts, firing to spread shrapnel, punch through targets into ones beyond, etc, etc.

I've always been a fan of the astartes bolter/storm bolters getting +1 shot per profile number. RF 1 becomes 1+1 within 24", 2+1 within 12". Storm Bolter becomes 2+2 within 24, or 4+2 within 12". Possibly extend to Bolt Pistols.

I like the current beta rules but I like movement and closing with the enemy to be encouraged, and the beta rules don't help with that.

But a lot of the suggested permutations are in a good direction, imo.

 Insectum7 wrote:

I like the current beta rules but I like movement and closing with the enemy to be encouraged, and the beta rules don't help with that.

You and I are more alike than we would think sometimes. I'm not a fan of Marines NEEDING to camp. All this rule did was reinforce that playstyle, which is why I'm constantly promoting a proc rule of some kind on wound rolls.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

I like the current beta rules but I like movement and closing with the enemy to be encouraged, and the beta rules don't help with that.

You and I are more alike than we would think sometimes. I'm not a fan of Marines NEEDING to camp. All this rule did was reinforce that playstyle, which is why I'm constantly promoting a proc rule of some kind on wound rolls.

That is my biggest gripe with the Beta Bolter Discipline rule as-is.
If the intent is to give more shots more often, do that, but don't encourage static play, especially not for Marines.

That's why I think the rule should be +1 shot per RF bolt weapon if stationary, or at half range, or all the time if _____ keyword.
3 shots outside 12" or 5 shots within 12" for a SB Terminators is far better than a boring 4 shots all the time because it encourages getting close, which Terminators are meant to do

-

Scout bikers are some of the best units SM players have access to. I don't think they need a buff honestly.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Scout bikers are some of the best units SM players have access to. I don't think they need a buff honestly.

OK....not sure what that has to do with altering the existing Bolter Discipline rule to actually benefit units that are in (sometimes desperate) need of a buff.

I've said it before, but we cannot get hung up on changes that truly benefit 90% of units that are "bad" just because it also helps the other 10% that are already "good"
Making 90% of units that were bad into something viable is worth also making those 10% of units that are good, still be good

-

I've had 1 game with the revised bolter rules. The player was trying to use Tactical Marines. It was an abject failure. The Marines stood at the back edge, trying to deny me from deep striking, and using their 24" range double-tap to deal more damage from the rear. However, at the end of the day, Bolters are still just Bolters. Yeah, they're better than Lasguns, but not by much.

As has been stated, the main change that the current Beta Bolters does is that it makes the units where bolters are already good into something better, while the change for the units where bolters are bad isn't much of a change. I would rather than Tactical Marines and Chaos Space Marines specifically become the ones that benefit most from this change. Here's what I'd like to see;


==Beta Stratagem==

Bolter Drill - 1CP

Use before a <CUSTODES>, <ASTARTES>, or <HERETIC ASTARTES> Troop unit would fire a Bolt weapon. Increase the Strength and AP of that unit's attacks with Bolt weapons by 1 until the end of this phase. (A Bolt weapon is any weapon with the word Bolt, Bolter, or Boltgun in its name, such as Heavy Bolter, Combi-Bolter, Storm Bolter, etc. Relics that represent enhanced bolters, such as the Primarch's Wrath, are also considered Bolt weapons for this purpose.)

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

I like the current beta rules but I like movement and closing with the enemy to be encouraged, and the beta rules don't help with that.

You and I are more alike than we would think sometimes. I'm not a fan of Marines NEEDING to camp. All this rule did was reinforce that playstyle, which is why I'm constantly promoting a proc rule of some kind on wound rolls.

Word. And I appreciate that you also don't feel the need for a durabilty buff, as far as I can tell. The Rapid-Fire rule was static in 2nd, which was fine for the granularity of that game. But the shift in scale and increase in abstraction facilitates a different style for marines, imo.

 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

I like the current beta rules but I like movement and closing with the enemy to be encouraged, and the beta rules don't help with that.

You and I are more alike than we would think sometimes. I'm not a fan of Marines NEEDING to camp. All this rule did was reinforce that playstyle, which is why I'm constantly promoting a proc rule of some kind on wound rolls.

That is my biggest gripe with the Beta Bolter Discipline rule as-is.
If the intent is to give more shots more often, do that, but don't encourage static play, especially not for Marines.

That's why I think the rule should be +1 shot per RF bolt weapon if stationary, or at half range, or all the time if _____ keyword.
3 shots outside 12" or 5 shots within 12" for a SB Terminators is far better than a boring 4 shots all the time because it encourages getting close, which Terminators are meant to do
-

Yeah, I went 4-6 for Storm Bolters. It's a bigger jump, but I feel it's justified.
And for gods sake make Terminators ignore -1 penalties for Heavy and Powerfists, etc.

The other thing that feels off for me about the beta rule is that it applies to vehicles more than the marines. People want the basic marines to feel better, and mostly just want vehicles to be a bit cheaper. So, personally I'd rather drop the upgrade to vehicles but have the basic marine pump out more shots while on the move. Imo marine armies more than other armies should have a focus on the ability of the core trooper. Don't get me wrong, I like the extra bullets from Crusaders, Rhinos etc. but I'd trade it for pumping the troops.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

I like the current beta rules but I like movement and closing with the enemy to be encouraged, and the beta rules don't help with that.

You and I are more alike than we would think sometimes. I'm not a fan of Marines NEEDING to camp. All this rule did was reinforce that playstyle, which is why I'm constantly promoting a proc rule of some kind on wound rolls.

Word. And I appreciate that you also don't feel the need for a durabilty buff, as far as I can tell. The Rapid-Fire rule was static in 2nd, which was fine for the granularity of that game. But the shift in scale and increase in abstraction facilitates a different style for marines, imo.

 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

I like the current beta rules but I like movement and closing with the enemy to be encouraged, and the beta rules don't help with that.

You and I are more alike than we would think sometimes. I'm not a fan of Marines NEEDING to camp. All this rule did was reinforce that playstyle, which is why I'm constantly promoting a proc rule of some kind on wound rolls.

That is my biggest gripe with the Beta Bolter Discipline rule as-is.
If the intent is to give more shots more often, do that, but don't encourage static play, especially not for Marines.

That's why I think the rule should be +1 shot per RF bolt weapon if stationary, or at half range, or all the time if _____ keyword.
3 shots outside 12" or 5 shots within 12" for a SB Terminators is far better than a boring 4 shots all the time because it encourages getting close, which Terminators are meant to do
-

Yeah, I went 4-6 for Storm Bolters. It's a bigger jump, but I feel it's justified.
And for gods sake make Terminators ignore -1 penalties for Heavy and Powerfists, etc.

The other thing that feels off for me about the beta rule is that it applies to vehicles more than the marines. People want the basic marines to feel better, and mostly just want vehicles to be a bit cheaper. So, personally I'd rather drop the upgrade to vehicles but have the basic marine pump out more shots while on the move. Imo marine armies more than other armies should have a focus on the ability of the core trooper. Don't get me wrong, I like the extra bullets from Crusaders, Rhinos etc. but I'd trade it for pumping the troops.

If you've noticed, as maybe tactless as I am, my fixes are usually nothing super major and something i try to make easy to implement due to me caring about scaling. The core Marine issues are offense (which Deathwatch proved) and the lame implementing of Chapter Tactics. I dunno if you've seen the Genestealer Cult one for The Bladed Cog, but it makes this Iron Hands fan weep a grand amount.

I say just leave it be. It's not perfect but it's simple and easy to understand.

We gave this a good go over the last couple days, we used the +1 attack version, rather than +1 to profile, after a couple goes, because giving everyone a storm bolter, and making storm bolters rapid 4 made bikes esp. my bike vets just pretty broken. We aren't the most competitive, we like the odd narrative game day, but man, 60 shots in 12" was getting silly. At +1 attack only per weapon, they only make 50 instead of 40 attacks, which is a little less insane

The only problem we had with this when we tested it just yesterday was Hurricane Bolters really don't get too much of a boost at all. Because it's not activating their Rapid Fire like the published beta rule, they only get 7 shots at 24" and 13 in 12", or 14 if we used the add one to profile version. That said, that kind of weapon array is a lot harder to aim and calibrate than if a trained marine was holding it in their hands looking down sights, so maybe the reduced effectiveness of the drill is apt. Since they aren't the old "3 Twin-Linked bolters", even though their new profile emulates 6 bolters, its own profile. One could argue that since Hurricanes only appear on Centurions and Vehicles (and if one extends this to Custodes, still a Biker on the Dawneagle) the original version of the beta rule only ever buffs the Hurricane, and too much. It just becomes a 24" 12 shots which seems a bit much
We tried several variations, but still writing a version that doesn't get overly finicky is difficult. It's not that common a weapon, and we are all sure 18 or 24 shots per weapon (so 36 or 48 total from a crusader or raven!) at the close range is too much if we considered it as 6 individual bolters with +1 attack or 6 rapid fire 2 bolters / 3rapid fire 4 twin bolters. If we called them 3 twin bolters doing rapid fire 2 plus the 1 attack it does give it 9 to 24" and 15 at 12" which we feel is about right, but that's a bit convoluted to re-write hurricane bolters about.

Additionally, we found in CC every marine has 2 bolt pistol shots as well, and especially the Primaris units Reivers, Apothecaries and Chaplains with their heavy/absolver pistols were very powerful. One Reiver squad just murdered the enemy ork squad in one shooting phase and then assaulted a neighbouring mob immediately the next phase, and did a number on them set to do it again. It was 4th edition replaying itself. To combat this, and what we assume would be some strong heavy and pintle storm bolters on the Super Heavy relics with Steel Behemoth, we said it doesn't work within 1".

While Cypher's relic bolt pistol probably doesn't need the boost, it only works if he stands still or within 8" for just 1 absolver pistol equivalent attack, its a fair trade for ease ofjsut adding "All Fallen giant his ability" too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is what I intend to email, to clarify the above.

We came up with an alteration that follows the original idea. The rules we began trying out instead was: Bolter DiciplineHouse Rule. All Adeptus Astartes, Fallen and Heretic Astartes models gain this ability. When a model with this ability fires any "Bolt" weapon, add 1 to the number of attacks if both the firing model is not within 1" of an enemy model and any of the following conditions are met:
If the target is within half the weapon's range to the firing model
If the firing model remained stationary in the movement phase
If the firing model has Centurion, Biker, Vehicle, Terminator keywords

Any bolt Weapon also doesn't include any Custodes weapon melee weapons the Sentinel Blade, Castellan Axe or Guardian Spears if one wanted to extend the benefit there, nor the DW's Sentinel blade which does get the special issue bolt ammo that the DW get, yet does include the Vulcan Mega Bolter on the DW flyer. But hey, its better than nothing

ADEPTUS ASTARTES infantry, cavalry, bikers, walkers gain the following:

Superhuman Training
Wound rolls of 6 deal a mortal wound in addition to normal damage.

Always treat ADEPTUS ASTARTES weapons as though they are in rapid fire range.

If a HEAVY weapon is fired by an ADEPTUS ASTARTES model that did not move, double the number of shots.

A better overall change.

 Marmatag wrote:


Wound rolls of 6 deal a mortal wound in addition to normal damage.

Always treat ADEPTUS ASTARTES weapons as though they are in rapid fire range.

If a HEAVY weapon is fired by an ADEPTUS ASTARTES model that did not move, double the number of shots.

Personally I am completely against adding more mortal wounds. Especially to base infantry. Otherwise what's the point in armour saves any more?

Secondly this isn't a re-work for marines. It's a quality of life update. Play test their rule and compare it against your suggestion and feedback how it differed and what it felt like.

Otherwise from a business perspective it literally just comes across as people not testing and using the opportunity to to stuff in a rule they want for the sake of it.

Got to take baby steps.

 Marmatag wrote:

If a HEAVY weapon is fired by an ADEPTUS ASTARTES model that did not move, double the number of shots.

And Marines never moved again.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

If a HEAVY weapon is fired by an ADEPTUS ASTARTES model that did not move, double the number of shots.

And Marines never moved again.

It's like some people don't understand the core issues at hand huh?

Personally, I never really liked Auto Bolt Rifles. Carbines I could accept being the only way to give Reivers the kind of fire Intercessors can lay down. Being basically just bolters as wielded by Primaris they seem functionally more like 7th and previous Storm Bolters, I never really found the extra shot at mid-range nor the mobility to advance and fire at -1 that handy in my games so far. Especially with the official beta version, the Bolt Rifle gets 2 shots all the way to 30 if static, so you end up trading both the 6" range and the -1AP for the -1 to hit advance and fire. However, the fact they go up to 3 attacks when stationary or close, still meets the rifle for close range rate of fire and back to beating the Rifle fire at 15"-24" when also standing makes the trade-off of the AP really a calculated decision about how mobile you need your battleline, further encouraging dynamic gameplay and moving gun lines at the least. We tried some Stalkers out and we almost felt they were too good. -1 to hit, but keep the captain moving with them but 2 shots at 18" with that -2AP makes them almost feel like sternguard, but 2 ap-2 at 36 standing still maybe would encourage too much-standing play again, but flexibility is also a very Marine thing.

Also, I especially love the plus 1 shot to heavies for the Heavy Bolter at least with the under half range part of this suggestion, it makes moving up with a spraying heavy bolter worth it. Not that it helps the Grav Cannon's impotency much, but IMO that one is, in fact, a cost issue.
It feels like in Space Marine, as the Devastator class where you could hunker down and get the focus fire, or close enough you can hose down with the scattering fusillade on the move, and then deploy the stone shattering Groin Punt they do.
Still trying to work out an elegant solution to Hurricane Bolters.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

If a HEAVY weapon is fired by an ADEPTUS ASTARTES model that did not move, double the number of shots.

And Marines never moved again.

It's like some people don't understand the core issues at hand huh?

What I could see (drawing from 2nd Ed. again) is (instead of the devastator Signum), every marine heavy weapon getting +1 to hit (In 2nd Ed. unlike many armies, marine heavy weapons automatically came with a Targeter for +1 to hit).

In addition to the obvious benefit, a subtle benefit would be that it would cancel the -1 to hit from moving with a Heavy, meaning marines wouldn't lose the pesky 3 on the dice for re-rolls to hit. A Predator could move and fire, and if in Chapter Master Aura, still re-roll that 3 to-hit.

Then rework points from there. Or just rework/dump auras while you're at it. I use the blob, but I hate the blob.

I'm more a fan of that being a subpart to a Chapter Tactic (like giving it to Iron Hands for example is something I've been promoting).

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

If a HEAVY weapon is fired by an ADEPTUS ASTARTES model that did not move, double the number of shots.

And Marines never moved again.

It's like some people don't understand the core issues at hand huh?

What I could see (drawing from 2nd Ed. again) is (instead of the devastator Signum), every marine heavy weapon getting +1 to hit (In 2nd Ed. unlike many armies, marine heavy weapons automatically came with a Targeter for +1 to hit).

In addition to the obvious benefit, a subtle benefit would be that it would cancel the -1 to hit from moving with a Heavy, meaning marines wouldn't lose the pesky 3 on the dice for re-rolls to hit. A Predator could move and fire, and if in Chapter Master Aura, still re-roll that 3 to-hit.

Then rework points from there. Or just rework/dump auras while you're at it. I use the blob, but I hate the blob.

I think marine heavy weapons getting 2+ to hit would cause more castling/gun lines. I'd prefer devs to get that instead.

As far as the signum goes I'd say make it "select an enemy unit, ignore the - 1 to hit modifier for moving and firing heavy weapons against that unit" let's units stay mobile, doesn't support castling, though in order for that to happen they need to shoot at one unit(at least the heavy weapons).

Though I'm not against Predators or other tanks being able to just ignore the movement penalty. I guess seeing the results would be more convincing than what I'm imagining

 fraser1191 wrote:

As far as the signum goes I'd say make it "select an enemy unit, ignore the - 1 to hit modifier for moving and firing heavy weapons against that unit" let's units stay mobile, doesn't support castling, though in order for that to happen they need to shoot at one unit(at least the heavy weapons).

That's a pretty decent direction, though that +1 helps a lot against flyers, etc.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

As far as the signum goes I'd say make it "select an enemy unit, ignore the - 1 to hit modifier for moving and firing heavy weapons against that unit" let's units stay mobile, doesn't support castling, though in order for that to happen they need to shoot at one unit(at least the heavy weapons).

That's a pretty decent direction, though that +1 helps a lot against flyers, etc.

Yeah in my meta the - 1 to hit penalty isn't nearly as abused as other places so I tend to forget about it

I did email GW - but to say I liked the rule in its current form...