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Kinda surprised there hasn't been thread in this forum yet considering how much it's being discussed elsewhere, so here goes.

Bolter Discipline is a good step in the right direction, but it doesn't really seem to help the units that really need help (namely Tacs, Termies, Bikes, etc) and seems to favor Vets and DW taking Stormbolters and SIA. Ya know, the options that were already good.
All it really does is give the max # of shots for RF weapons in more situations. But it doesn't actually give more shots and what's worse, it encourages static gunline castling. It also does noting for Assault or Heavy Bolt weapons, but it should

At first, I thought maybe changing the rule to add +1 to the Rapid Fire characteristic of Bolt weapons, but now I think a better rule would be:

Add +1 attack to ANY Bolt weapons if:
The model was stationary
The weapon is at half range (so Rapid fire weapons would have double shots +1)
The models has the keyword: Terminator, Biker, Centurion or Vehicle

This change would mean a Tac Marine would have 2 shots at 24" if Stationary, or 3 shots in 12"
A Terminator (with SB) or Bike (with Twinbolter) would have 3 shots outside 12", 5 shots within 12"
It also means stationary Heavy Bolters would have 4 shots which makes them interesting to take.
It actually gives more shots while still encouraging getting closer (like good Shock troops should be doing)

If you like this suggestion or have something similar, please email it the Warhammer Community: 40kFAQ@gwplc.com
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/21/21st-jan-introducing-better-beta-boltersgw-homepage-post-4/

Let's try to get the finalized version something that makes a difference!

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Glad you started this thread, the original was getting derailed and this sort of proposal is probably better here anyway. Thanks for the original idea and for everyone that pointed out how much it left all the non Rapid Fire bolters behind(many of which were already somewhat lacking compared to their counterparts) to get me to think of the all bolters tweak. This version is easy to understand and is a buff that would effect a lot more of the units it is trying to help.

Calrification required: When you say "Bolt Weapons" what do you mean:

"Marine" Bolt Weapons

or ALL Bolt Weapons:

Loyalist Marine Bolt weapons
Chaos Marine Bolt Weapons
Sisters of Battle Bolt weapons
Sisters of Silence Bolt Weapons
Astra Millitarium Bolt Weapons
Custodes Bolt Weapons
etc

 Mr Morden wrote:
Calrification required: When you say "Bolt Weapons" what do you mean:

"Marine" Bolt Weapons

or ALL Bolt Weapons:

Loyalist Marine Bolt weapons
Chaos Marine Bolt Weapons
Sisters of Battle Bolt weapons
Sisters of Silence Bolt Weapons
Astra Millitarium Bolt Weapons
Custodes Bolt Weapons
etc

Good question. My suggestion is to remain in line with the current Beta Rule, so only Astartes Bolt weapons as defined by the rule, but expanded to any "Bolt" weapons that are Heavy, Assault or Pistol.

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 Mr Morden wrote:
Calrification required: When you say "Bolt Weapons" what do you mean:

"Marine" Bolt Weapons

or ALL Bolt Weapons:

Loyalist Marine Bolt weapons
Chaos Marine Bolt Weapons
Sisters of Battle Bolt weapons
Sisters of Silence Bolt Weapons
Astra Millitarium Bolt Weapons
Custodes Bolt Weapons
etc

I don’t want to speak for the op but, I think just for Space Marines and their chaos counterparts.

Emperors will wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Calrification required: When you say "Bolt Weapons" what do you mean:

"Marine" Bolt Weapons

or ALL Bolt Weapons:

Loyalist Marine Bolt weapons
Chaos Marine Bolt Weapons
Sisters of Battle Bolt weapons
Sisters of Silence Bolt Weapons
Astra Millitarium Bolt Weapons
Custodes Bolt Weapons
etc

I don’t want to speak for the op but, I think just for Space Marines and their chaos counterparts.

Well screw that - the current small buff is ok for just two bloated super sprawling factions (although Custodes should also have it) but this is too much not to give it to ALL bolt guns.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Emperors will wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Calrification required: When you say "Bolt Weapons" what do you mean:

"Marine" Bolt Weapons

or ALL Bolt Weapons:

Loyalist Marine Bolt weapons
Chaos Marine Bolt Weapons
Sisters of Battle Bolt weapons
Sisters of Silence Bolt Weapons
Astra Millitarium Bolt Weapons
Custodes Bolt Weapons
etc

I don’t want to speak for the op but, I think just for Space Marines and their chaos counterparts.

Well screw that - the current small buff is ok for just two bloated super sprawling factions (although Custodes should also have it) but this is too much not to give it to ALL bolt guns.

How do you figure? Literally no other faction struggles to use regular Bolt Weapons and you should know that.

Also it's hardly "bloated", but I don't think most people would argue against consolidation of certain codices. Bloat is what 7th was and we hadn't near hit that just yet.

Custodes having it might be sensible, but I see less reason for the others to have it. It is obvious the rule is an attempt to buff SM and CSM units that are currently under-performing for their cost, and there are lore reasons to support it as well, although game balance is what is really the most important.

Yeah Sisters and Guard shouldn't be getting a bonus for their bolters. It's not as fluffy for them and they get other stuff.
Besides, the finest paintbrush is always going to paint a better masterpiece in the hands of a master artist rather than a novice painter.
Bolters were DESIGNED to be used by Astartes. Nuns and non-super human militia shouldn't be as effective with them.

And Bolter disciple is meant for Astates. There need to be "normal" bolters somewhere

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Adding on an extra bolter shot probably wouldn't break anything, but I'm also not sure it would really make tacs, termies, or bikers significantly better than the GW beta rule does.

Personally, I want my tactical marines to basically have primaris rules. If the only fixes they receive are more bolter shots, then it might make them killy enough to be useful, but they'd feel more like eldar in terms of durability and offense than like the ceramite-clad gorillas they're supposed to be.

Decent mechanics, but maybe not the right gameplay feel.

Also, and let me know if this is too off-topic for this thread, but I've kind of been liking the idea of tying different variant bolter profiles to different chapter tactics. Something like...

* Stealthy ninja raven guard get "sniper" bolters that are heavy 1, can target characters, and have better damage or AP or something on to-wound rolls of 6.

* Hold the line imperial fists get the +1 shot when stationary that you're suggesting.

* Speedy, mobile white scars get assault 2 18" bolters

That sort of thing. Alternatively, you could just have marines select one of those bonus profiles before the game starts. Think of it as the warlord shouting out a general "combat stance" for his force as a whole. "Don't shoot until you see the whites of their eyes," and so forth.

Honestly we just need a couple of unique units to get that effect you want with maybe specialized Bolters.

Mostly, this thread is to address two issues:
1. The current rule by GW not really scaling well
2. Other Bolt weapons (Carbines, Pistols, Stalkers, Heavy Bolters) that have issues aren't touched at all by the current rule by GW.

The rule doesn't solve the right problem. Bolters are good against light infantry but don't do much against anything else.

The problem with Bolters is not volume of fire. If we really wanted to improve Bolters, it would be to make them AP -1.

In my first game with the beta rule, I had a couple situations where my CSMs stood still but all they had to target was a Leman Russ. All I was doing was rolling more dice when failing to wound.

I know this example is extreme. But think about the situations where a Marine is going to stand still at 12 - 24 inches. Even if they are camping an objective, it's not going to happen every often and doesn't offer enough of a buff that people are suddenly going to take Marines again.

I can see the rule as written being useful for Bikes, Terminators and Combi-Bolters. The complaint is it doesn't solve the right problem for simple Boltguns.

 Galef wrote:
Yeah Sisters and Guard shouldn't be getting a bonus for their bolters. It's not as fluffy for them and they get other stuff.
Besides, the finest paintbrush is always going to paint a better masterpiece in the hands of a master artist rather than a novice painter.
Bolters were DESIGNED to be used by Astartes. Nuns and non-super human militia shouldn't be as effective with them.

And Bolter disciple is meant for Astates. There need to be "normal" bolters somewhere

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Please cite where the Bolt Gun was made for orignally Marines? Didn't the Thunder Warriors and other pre Marine forces use them? In the Actual Lore the Sister Boltgun is a superior weapon.

Whilst I think having some form of improvment for Marines is warrented - this is the usual My own faction wants a huge boost.

Sisters of Battle, Sisters of Silence and Custodes are not fething Militia. I woud have hoped someone with any passing knowledge of the universe would have known that.

Also it's hardly "bloated", but I don't think most people would argue against consolidation of certain codices. Bloat is what 7th was and we hadn't near hit that just yet.

Looks at the spawling mass of codexes, supplements and super special rules, the vastly bloated range of models including flanderised crap and Centurions and laughs.

I emailed them yesterday.

I stated to keep everything the same but instead of always getting rapid fire.

Increase Rapid fire by one.

I'm okay with the assault variations and heavy variations not getting it. Yeah it makes certain takes more Niche but I think keep the change simple for now. Then improve on it later if need be.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Yeah Sisters and Guard shouldn't be getting a bonus for their bolters. It's not as fluffy for them and they get other stuff.
Besides, the finest paintbrush is always going to paint a better masterpiece in the hands of a master artist rather than a novice painter.
Bolters were DESIGNED to be used by Astartes. Nuns and non-super human militia shouldn't be as effective with them.

And Bolter disciple is meant for Astates. There need to be "normal" bolters somewhere

-

Please cite where the Bolt Gun was made for orignally Marines? Didn't the Thunder Warriors and other pre Marine forces use them? In the Actual Lore the Sister Boltgun is a superior weapon.

Whilst I think having some form of improvment for Marines is warrented - this is the usual My own faction wants a huge boost.

Sisters of Battle, Sisters of Silence and Custodes are not fething Militia. I woud have hoped someone with any passing knowledge of the universe would have known that.

Also it's hardly "bloated", but I don't think most people would argue against consolidation of certain codices. Bloat is what 7th was and we hadn't near hit that just yet.

Looks at the spawling mass of codexes, supplements and super special rules, the vastly bloated range of models including flanderised crap and Centurions and laughs.

Seeing as Centurions were 6th edition, this post mostly reads of complaining about change for the sake of complaining about change.

Nobody cares if you don't like Centurions or some of the modern fluff. It already exists, get over it. Right now the adults are talking about crunch and the implications behind certain changes.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
I emailed them yesterday.

I stated to keep everything the same but instead of always getting rapid fire.

Increase Rapid fire by one.

I'm okay with the assault variations and heavy variations not getting it. Yeah it makes certain takes more Niche but I think keep the change simple for now. Then improve on it later if need be.

Yeah, either RF+1 or just +1 shot for all Bolt weapons. Either way, the rule should be giving more shots overall, not just max shots in more situations.
It's not going to break the game and makes taking regular Marines slightly more appealing, especially if GW is going to refuse to lower their points cost

There will always be units that get more out of a blanket special rule, but if we can make the "lesser" units get a larger bonus, that it what we should strive for.
That's one of the reasons I lean more towards the +1 shot, rather than RF+1. It gives 1-2 shot models a bigger proportional bonus than those that already get 3-4 shots already.

For example, if the rule was RF+1, a Tac Marine would get 2 shots at 24" if Stationary or 4 shots within 12"
In the bolt weapons +1 shot version, that Tac still gets 2 shots at 24", but only 3 shots within 12"

While that's only 1 less shot overall in the +1 shot version, it starts to differ greatly compared to say a Vet with SB which....
...using RF+1 would have 3 Shots at 24" if stationary or 6 shots within 12"
But with the all bolt weapon +1 shot version, that's 3/5 shots respectively.
Still a very nice bonus, but you'll get more shots with more models, since 2 Tacs in that same version get 4/6 shots, thus encouraging more bodies for more overall shots.

That's why I'd prefer +1 shot over RF+1. It also can be easily applied to Assault Bolters (which are primarily on Primaris) and Heavy Bolt weapons, which is just the Heavy Bolter & Stalker, I believe which both need some love.

-

 Galef wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
I emailed them yesterday.

I stated to keep everything the same but instead of always getting rapid fire.

Increase Rapid fire by one.

I'm okay with the assault variations and heavy variations not getting it. Yeah it makes certain takes more Niche but I think keep the change simple for now. Then improve on it later if need be.

Yeah, either RF+1 or just +1 shot for all Bolt weapons. Either way, the rule should be giving more shots overall, not just max shots in more situations.
It's not going to break the game and makes taking regular Marines slightly more appealing, especially if GW is going to refuse to lower their points cost

There will always be units that get more out of a blanket special rule, but if we can make the "lesser" units get a larger bonus, that it what we should strive for.
That's one of the reasons I lean more towards the +1 shot, rather than RF+1. It gives 1-2 shot models a bigger proportional bonus than those that already get 3-4 shots already.

For example, if the rule was RF+1, a Tac Marine would get 2 shots at 24" if Stationary or 4 shots within 12"
In the bolt weapons +1 shot version, that Tac still gets 2 shots at 24", but only 3 shots within 12"

While that's only 1 less shot overall in the +1 shot version, it starts to differ greatly compared to say a Vet with SB which....
...using RF+1 would have 3 Shots at 24" if stationary or 6 shots within 12"
But with the all bolt weapon +1 shot version, that's 3/5 shots respectively.
Still a very nice bonus, but you'll get more shots with more models, since 2 Tacs in that same version get 4/6 shots, thus encouraging more bodies for more overall shots.

That's why I'd prefer +1 shot over RF+1. It also can be easily applied to Assault Bolters (which are primarily on Primaris) and Heavy Bolt weapons, which is just the Heavy Bolter & Stalker, I believe which both need some love.

-

I understand the view of + 1 shot. But in other thread I mention'd the +1 to profile (Rapid Fire1(2)) made for a much more enjoyable game and naturally made me play more aggressive to get within rapid fire range. This made my opponent be more decive.

It was really fun and didn't feel broken. Rule as stands we tried too and honestly didn't notice it.

But the increase of the rapid fire made it feel just better but not OP. I couldn't run at anything but I felt confident my scouts deploying further up meant something.

I plopped my Intercessors turn two on an objective 5 men. Turn one they got 5 shots. turn two they got 10 shots because they didn't move. Turn three I got 20 shots cos things got within rapid fire range.

At the same time I ran a redempter Dreadnought. Who had to storm bolters. It used to get 4 shots and now it got 6 so two extra shots and when it got within rapid fire range it got 12 shots.

This became so much more enjoyable and my opponent found the little extra thought enjoyable too. (He played Orks btw)

Oh! I just thought of a way to combine both versions.

RF+1 for all RF bolt weapons (if stationary, at half range, etc)
And all non-RF bolt weapons get +1 shot under the same conditions.

This is the best of both worlds. It makes RF weapons very engaging, but doesn't completely dump on non-RF bolt weapons.
Boltguns would be RF2, Storm Bolters RF3, etc while Heavy Bolters would be H4.

And you can simplify the wording to: All "bolt" weapons have their attack characteristic improved by +1 if stationary, or at half range, or Keyword: etc. This would not need to replace the way each weapon type works, but would add to it.

So RF weapons would still get double shots at half range, but they get to double a higher number. Bolters being RF2 would mean 4 shots at half range, while SBs get 6 shots at half.
But Heavy Bolters, Stalker bolt rifles, Assault botlers, etc aren't left behind either as they too get to add +1 shot if conditions are met.

-

In my e-mail to them on this subject I also suggested -1 AP on astartes boltguns with an open-ended caveat that perhaps there would be restrictions and such. E.g. on a 5+ it's AP-1, or whatever. More annoying bookkeeping for sure, but not unreasonable. Or maybe it is, whatever. Doesn't have to be that change per se.

Biggest point was that this really doesn't "fix" power armor and while it's a step in that direction, there's more thought to put into the matter and work to be done.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
In my e-mail to them on this subject I also suggested -1 AP on astartes boltguns with an open-ended caveat that perhaps there would be restrictions and such. E.g. on a 5+ it's AP-1, or whatever. More annoying bookkeeping for sure, but not unreasonable. Or maybe it is, whatever. Doesn't have to be that change per se.

Biggest point was that this really doesn't "fix" power armor and while it's a step in that direction, there's more thought to put into the matter and work to be done.

Gotta take baby steps though. Trying to completely overdo it, with withing bringing in AP changes etc would get complicated and may as well at that point wait until 9th ed.

fix what it is they're trying to do which is focus on the marine/bolter relationship to help give them a quality of life update. Not an overhaul.

Yeah, hopefully it's just one thing among a few down the line.

While I personally think Bolters have fluff reasons to be AP-1, or have some bonus on a 5/6+ for "exploding rounds", I think for game balance it is a good thing they aren't.
Bolters are so wide spread that being AP-1, even occasionally, would actually HURT the Marines using them. Because you could expect to almost never get your 3+ armour save again.

I think more shots is better in the long run. Let the dice gods sort it out after that.

Now if a later edition makes Power Armour 2+, or regular Marines finally get 2Ws, yeah, lets make the basic bolter AP-1 all day.

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 Mr Morden wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:
Yeah Sisters and Guard shouldn't be getting a bonus for their bolters. It's not as fluffy for them and they get other stuff.
Besides, the finest paintbrush is always going to paint a better masterpiece in the hands of a master artist rather than a novice painter.
Bolters were DESIGNED to be used by Astartes. Nuns and non-super human militia shouldn't be as effective with them.

And Bolter disciple is meant for Astates. There need to be "normal" bolters somewhere

-

Please cite where the Bolt Gun was made for orignally Marines? Didn't the Thunder Warriors and other pre Marine forces use them? In the Actual Lore the Sister Boltgun is a superior weapon.

Whilst I think having some form of improvment for Marines is warrented - this is the usual My own faction wants a huge boost.

Sisters of Battle, Sisters of Silence and Custodes are not fething Militia. I woud have hoped someone with any passing knowledge of the universe would have known that.

Also it's hardly "bloated", but I don't think most people would argue against consolidation of certain codices. Bloat is what 7th was and we hadn't near hit that just yet.

Looks at the spawling mass of codexes, supplements and super special rules, the vastly bloated range of models including flanderised crap and Centurions and laughs.

It's a little irritating to hear about this super special sacred Sister Bolter.

If you are going to argue there's a fluff reason for Sisters being on-par with a Space Marine with a gun, you will have to do better than superior craftsmanship. The relationship between fluff and rules is tenuous. There's all kinds of references in the Lore to different versions of power armor being faster, slower, superior, etc. In game terms, that means absolutely nothing, it's always a 3+ save. Or how Salamaders are noticeably slower than other Marines. In game terms, that means absolutely nothing, they move exactly the same as every other Chapter.

Giving Sisters Bolter Discipline would actually be a nerf to Tacticals. The point of this rule does not appear to be to buff the gun, but some of the people capable of shooting it. Who are covered in devices that augment their ability to kill things to superhuman levels.

 Galef wrote:
Oh! I just thought of a way to combine both versions.

RF+1 for all RF bolt weapons (if stationary, at half range, etc)
And all non-RF bolt weapons get +1 shot under the same conditions.

This is the best of both worlds. It makes RF weapons very engaging, but doesn't completely dump on non-RF bolt weapons.
Boltguns would be RF2, Storm Bolters RF3, etc while Heavy Bolters would be H4.

And you can simplify the wording to: All "bolt" weapons have their attack characteristic improved by +1 if stationary, or at half range, or Keyword: etc. This would not need to replace the way each weapon type works, but would add to it.

So RF weapons would still get double shots at half range, but they get to double a higher number. Bolters being RF2 would mean 4 shots at half range, while SBs get 6 shots at half.
But Heavy Bolters, Stalker bolt rifles, Assault botlers, etc aren't left behind either as they too get to add +1 shot if conditions are met.

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That's too much. The original premise is a lot better.

My proposal was to have it add 1 to the shots profile of the weapon, so Rapid Fire 1 becomes 2, or Heavy 3 becomes 4, etc. That way you do not have to call out different effects for different weapons. Keeps it nice and streamlined.

Im not sure if this would be op or not but why not allow tacticals and primaris to get the +1 shot even if they moved? It would still incentivize getting into rapid fire range for 3 shots and make marines less static.

With my proposal you would. You still keep the three conditions of stationary, within half range, and correct keywords, so anyone in half range with a Rapid Fire bolter is getting the +1 and double shots. This adds a couple shots which is certainly not going to break anything, but would buff units that currently could use it, while the non Rapid Fire bolters can still get an extra shot and not get left completely behind.

 ikeulhu wrote:
My proposal was to have it add 1 to the shots profile of the weapon, so Rapid Fire 1 becomes 2, or Heavy 3 becomes 4, etc. That way you do not have to call out different effects for different weapons. Keeps it nice and streamlined.

Yeah, my last idea is basically this, but I go a bit long winded with the explanation.
+1 to shot profile of any bolt weapon if any of the 3 conditions are met. Simple

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 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
I plopped my Intercessors turn two on an objective 5 men. Turn one they got 5 shots. turn two they got 10 shots because they didn't move. Turn three I got 20 shots cos things got within rapid fire range.

Thats not how the beta rule works. You fire as if in RP range under certain conditions. They do not stack.

You get 10 shots max.

 skchsan wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
I plopped my Intercessors turn two on an objective 5 men. Turn one they got 5 shots. turn two they got 10 shots because they didn't move. Turn three I got 20 shots cos things got within rapid fire range.

Thats not how the beta rule works. You fire as if in RP range under certain conditions. They do not stack.

You get 10 shots max.

He was specifically talking about a test game using the proposed +1 to RF# change. If Bolter Discipline was updated to that, the example would indeed work that way.

And I truly this that is the main "flaw" if you will for the current Beta rule. All it does is give you more situations to get double shots, but does nothing for situations in which you were already in RF range or for non-RF weapons.
Adding +1 to the shot characteristic would give a bonus to more weapons while still encouraging getting close with RF weapons to get double shots.

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