Outright demand. Chaos Cults need the GSC treatment.

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**Not Online!!!**

vipoid wrote:
To be honest, I'm far more interested in seeing Dark Eldar get the GSC treatment.

As in, actually getting some new units/models to replace at least some of the ones that have been stripped from the book.

How about we fix up Corsairs before that?
you know the list that is now illegal to play

**vipoid**

Not Online!!! wrote:
vipoid wrote:
To be honest, I'm far more interested in seeing Dark Eldar get the GSC treatment.

As in, actually getting some new units/models to replace at least some of the ones that have been stripped from the book.

How about we fix up Corsairs before that?
you know the list that is now illegal to play

I would like nothing more than to see Corsairs regain their 7th edition units and rules, especially the Corsair Prince.

(With or without models to go with them.)

**Not Online!!!**

Spoiler:

Just a daily reminder why you don't see any Renegades anymore: (warning a huge rant ahead)

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Arch Demagogic devotions, gone:
Think of them as army traits before army traits. They did cost points and were an upgrade for your Archdemagogue, your warlod.
There were 6; all of them for specific gamestyles.All of them with specific advantages and disadvantages.

Primarys-rogue Witch:
Double the ammount of rouge psyker covens allowed, up to 2 mastery levels. NO Khorne Devotion

Mutant Overlord:
Allowed to create Big mutants. (ogryn upgrade that did cost points)
Had a seperate mutation table with a mixture of boosts and nerfs.
Mutated his command squad.
You needed to field atleast 2 mutant rabble squads.

Master of the Horde:
Basically: Max size for Militia Infantry up to 30.
Any squad of 15+ may be removed from play roll a d6 on 5+ the squad is pushed into reserve.
You needed to field atleast 2 Platoons of infantry.

Arch-Heretic Revolutionary:
I belive this is what Op wanted:
Warord gained Zealot:
20 pts upgrade for infantry and veterans to gain fanatic.
up to 10 enforcers per enforcer carde.

Heretek Magus:
Warlod get's a 3 " save a 6+ FNP and T4 (well he becomes an angry spikey techpriest, what do you expect.)
Defilers are unlocked as heavy support.
Decimators are unlocked as Elite choice.
Additionally you can Upgrade all your infantry units for 10 pts with a 6+ FNP

Bloody Handed Reaver:
Traitor guard General.
Can get a hotshot laspistol or lasgun for 5 ppm
All units that can need to be upgraded to militia training. (that was a downside since that was sometimes not worth it)
Renegade Infantry veterans however could be upgraded to Grenadiers for 15pts.
The squad was then BS3+ had full Hotshot lasguns, and could take 2 additinal hotshot volley guns and 2 special weapons.
Militia units/ mutants, etc can get for 10 ppm flak armor (5+sv)

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

Mind you we have not yet even talked about the God specific boosts, or unaligned boosts.
Marauder f.e. (one of the only renegade units you will see if you face someone that plays them nowadays,) were only allowed for them if their arch demagogue was not "marked".

Nowadays we still have these "marks" but they all got worse and are now over the whole army, whereas before you could mix and match for squads, ofcourse for a price.

Not to mention that in the case of the arch demagogue the "Marks" /also known as covenants unlocked units like plague zombies, Troop spawn, Blood Slaughterers, Noise marine and sonic dreadnought support.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Out of the 13 units you could make. (not including various militia units)
We lost:
infantry veterans, which were a troop slot and had ws3+ unlike their Am brethren.
Grenadiers, (you wanted to play bloodpact death brigadiers, no FETH YOU )
Big Mutants.(Mutants are dead now)
Plague Zombies (only for DG, as if they did not get enough gak all over the place allready compared to any other chaos faction as of now)

That is 25% of the codex Specific units that just went Puff out the windows.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Miltia: yes it gains it's own part here in this little rant:
Once upon a time the most versatile unit you had. The unit that defined Renegade armies, (except mutant ones but anyways)

Modifyable via "Mark" and by your demagogue generally, was a platoon, did cost 3ppm .

Bought upgrades like BS/WS 4+ for 10 pts flat for 10-20 dudes (30 if you feel like mass assult today)
Bought armor for another flat 10 pts.

So you could have quasi imps/ (chaos imps if you fielded a blody handed reaver)
Could be thrown at enemies in waves of cheap chaff via Horde shenanigans,
Could be fanatical chaos cults with arch heretical upgrades, etc.

Now they are a bunch of 4ppm murder hobbos that neither have the quality of conscripts but cost the same as guardsmen.
Yes you pay premium on a model that by all means should've been 33%cheaper then a guardsmen. Not to mention was 33% cheaper then a guardsmen.
whereas before they could be used and upgraded to fit YOUR ARMY, YOUR PLAYSTYLE;etc in an army that lived off that , nowadays they are a bunch of murder hobos that raided a Munitorium cache.

And People say, spike tax doesn't exist. For Renegades it clearly does.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Random Leadership. Morale for renegades is and always was random.
Fanatical units ofcourse performing better when determining what their morale was and morale managment was key to let your army win.
In IA13 Random LD was d6+4, like it was always before.
Now morale is D6+2, for non fanatic units and d6+3 for fanatics.
HURAY, now you can expect even more losses on top of your losses.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Enforcers, went up 5 pts, lost combat drug injectors, and just willy nilly start shooting people. Mind you enforcers are atm one of the few units that are actually worth their salt somewhat since they potentially can keep a 50 man mutant blob in line.
But gone are the days were they enabled melee for your army or boosted morale for yoour command voxes. They now just shoot people, even ones that don't technically make morale checks. (marauders)
Sidenote: ENFORCERS LACKED THE CHARACHTER KEYWORD. Yeah so much care was given that the index was lacking keywords to fullfill keyfunctions.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Out of 2 Charachter leaders for the index list.
1 had the charachter keyword.
Renegade commanders have now replaced the arch demagogues, No customizability compared to before, no acess to cool equipment, now only there to give you access to the covenant of the army.

Did we mention that 2/4 covenants took a nose dive harder than most spacemarine aircraft would if we applied real life physics on them?
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Malefic lord: oh who would've forgotten that dude. was dirt cheap at 40ppm replaced the witch it seems, was spammed with brimstones.
Now up to 80 pts.
Am codex get's out. Get's wyrdvane psyker, at 40 pts, essentially the same model but with better weapons, GO FIGURE IT OUT:
Thanks to a bunch of TFG that spammed them at the start of 8th we still need to suffer for that.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Mutants:
Ok not only is their new mutation table gak, it was fundamentally broken at implementation and REQUIRED 2 FAQ's to be fixxed.
Gone are the boni mali system of IA13 and before.
Making Mutants from a random but significant threat into the militia that potentially loses d6 models before the game starts.
Did we mention that morale managment plays keyfactor for Renegades? Basically you allways need to pay another 30 pts to get even something out of them.
Yes enforcers are a must, and thanks to the small radious of blamming a enforcer has (beyond that he costs 2 commisars and kills d3 people)
He now is also limited to 3.
Horde faction capability removed.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

You had a bunch of Hot shot using renegades, yea they don't exist anymore. go figure.
Elite traitor guard is not possible to be simulated anymore.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The index is so fundamentally broken that a FAQ needed to be made to allow renegades to even use Chimeras or Arvuses lighters or valkyires.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Cultists:
Yeah we got them too, but they could not even copy paste propperly, stuck at 30 instead of forty, suffering from random LD and no access to stratagems.
Oh an recently nerfed aswell as their CSM counterpart. YeHAAAAA Spike tax in full swing baby:

FETH YOU GW.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The list could be further and further expanded.
and is in no means complete.

TLR :
GW/FW go take the finger out of your backsides and fix this abomination.
Then we would not need to use stand in codices.

Frankly all FW index lists atm suck.

Corsairs are now illegal, Renegades are dead. ( and yes i have a massive chip on my shoulder since i had to throw out 50% of my planned and allready built army)

DKoK are now one list, no siege lists / assult list variety anymore.

Elysians are a bit better off. But even there ....

__________________________

Personally, i'd like to see them fix Corsairs asap, then renegades and DKOK/ Elysians.
And with fix i mean FIX not FAQ's or some point changes in a CA.

edited by ingtaer to add spoiler to that huge quote.

**vipoid**

Not Online!!! wrote:

Personally, i'd like to see them fix Corsairs asap, then renegades and DKOK/ Elysians.
And with fix i mean FIX not FAQ's or some point changes in a CA.

I think what really saddens me is that I'm pretty certain I could convert the entire 7th edition Corsairs codex to an 8th edition one in a single day. Maybe two if I was adding in fancy stratagems and such (though most would probably end up being copied from Eldar/DE for fairly obvious reasons). All I'd really need would be a blank Dataslate to edit.

With that in mind, could FW not spare a single guy for a day or two to give Corsair players their army back? I'm not asking for anything fancy - just a plain, no-frills PDF would be fine.

**Not Online!!!**

vipoid wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

Personally, i'd like to see them fix Corsairs asap, then renegades and DKOK/ Elysians.
And with fix i mean FIX not FAQ's or some point changes in a CA.

I think what really saddens me is that I'm pretty certain I could convert the entire 7th edition Corsairs codex to an 8th edition one in a single day. Maybe two if I was adding in fancy stratagems and such (though most would probably end up being copied from Eldar/DE for fairly obvious reasons). All I'd really need would be a blank Dataslate to edit.

With that in mind, could FW not spare a single guy for a day or two to give Corsair players their army back? I'm not asking for anything fancy - just a plain, no-frills PDF would be fine.

Nope, cause Feth you and your FW army.

we need more primaris leutnants!

Sarcasm obviously.

**Karol**

If they aren't fixing non FW armies, because they don't have the people to do it. I doubt they have the man power to start testing FW armies. But who knows, maybe if someone gets hired to a high position in the rules design team or managment, they could do it themselfs in free time.

**Not Online!!!**

Karol wrote:
If they aren't fixing non FW armies, because they don't have the people to do it. I doubt they have the man power to start testing FW armies. But who knows, maybe if someone gets hired to a high position in the rules design team or managment, they could do it themselfs in free time.

They do have the people, the problem is that they don't care often times.

**Dysartes**

Silly question - what response do you get if you contact FW to ask about Corsairs (or any of the other FW index lists) getting updates?

**H.B.M.C.**

As someone who built up a sizable Lost & The Damned army during the original 13th Black Crusade/Eye of Terror campaign, I'd love to see that style of list return.

**Not Online!!!**

Dysartes wrote:
Silly question - what response do you get if you contact FW to ask about Corsairs (or any of the other FW index lists) getting updates?

Nothing, atleast GW gives you a mention that they recived the mail.

FW, Nothing.

**Kurnost**

I miss the hell out of the 7th ed armies, they seemed to have the fluff/fiction done amazingly well. Formation shenanigans aside, you could play YOUR army as YOUR army!

To the point of the post, agree 100%. Would love to see the Marks actually do something. Would like to see customisation options for the different versions of cultist represented in the fiction. I want the Nurgle worshiping dudes in exo's the Dark Angels face. I want the Blood Pact, the Sons of Sek. Hell, the option for a decent heavy weapon on a cultist squad. Will probably use the GSC to represent my dark mechanicum thrall units, but it's a poor stand-in.

GW need to get back to including the fluff in the army building options. My 2 cents.

Also, have contacted FW on rules queries more than once and they are terrible at returning emails. Most I got back was 'we haven't done that, use whatever works for you' when asking about chapter tactics for their marines :/

**Not Online!!!**

Kurnost wrote:
I miss the hell out of the 7th ed armies, they seemed to have the fluff/fiction done amazingly well. Formation shenanigans aside, you could play YOUR army as YOUR army!

To the point of the post, agree 100%. Would love to see the Marks actually do something. Would like to see customisation options for the different versions of cultist represented in the fiction. I want the Nurgle worshiping dudes in exo's the Dark Angels face. I want the Blood Pact, the Sons of Sek. Hell, the option for a decent heavy weapon on a cultist squad. Will probably use the GSC to represent my dark mechanicum thrall units, but it's a poor stand-in.

GW need to get back to including the fluff in the army building options. My 2 cents.

Also, have contacted FW on rules queries more than once and they are terrible at returning emails. Most I got back was 'we haven't done that, use whatever works for you' when asking about chapter tactics for their marines :/

I wouldn't sign the first part, fluff rules and your army for alot of 7th ed armies.

But at this point, i had higher chances with my 7th edition renegades to win a match even against formation shenanigans then i have now.

And everyone with IA 13 or any other fw book from 7th could fully rewrite it into 8th edition.
But fw is to busy throwing out more Horus Heresy stuff.

I also think that with the discontinuation of the model line we won't get anything from them.

**Agamemnon2**

Isn't it essentially confirmed that FW will be focusing on HH and specialist games from here on out. That is to say, all of their 40k range is being discontinued?

**Not Online!!!**

Agamemnon2 wrote:
Isn't it essentially confirmed that FW will be focusing on HH and specialist games from here on out. That is to say, all of their 40k range is being discontinued?

certainly feels that way.

**Inquisitor Lord Katherine**

Kurnost wrote:
I miss the hell out of the 7th ed armies, they seemed to have the fluff/fiction done amazingly well. Formation shenanigans aside, you could play YOUR army as YOUR army!

To the point of the post, agree 100%. Would love to see the Marks actually do something. Would like to see customisation options for the different versions of cultist represented in the fiction. I want the Nurgle worshiping dudes in exo's the Dark Angels face. I want the Blood Pact, the Sons of Sek. Hell, the option for a decent heavy weapon on a cultist squad. Will probably use the GSC to represent my dark mechanicum thrall units, but it's a poor stand-in.

GW need to get back to including the fluff in the army building options. My 2 cents.

Also, have contacted FW on rules queries more than once and they are terrible at returning emails. Most I got back was 'we haven't done that, use whatever works for you' when asking about chapter tactics for their marines :/

Did we play the same 7e? Like, everything was rigidly locked into to fielding specific units for specific bonuses, which seems to me the exact opposite of playing your army as your army.

I don't think we need more fluff rules or anything like that. We already kind of have too much in the form of Chapter Tactics. Power armor is power armor, the variance is negligible. The more the fluff and rules are tied together, the less yours your army becomes.

**Bobthehero**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Agamemnon2 wrote:
Isn't it essentially confirmed that FW will be focusing on HH and specialist games from here on out. That is to say, all of their 40k range is being discontinued?

certainly feels that way.

Should have seen it coming I guess, I guess its a good thing I was pretty much done with my Krieg army

**Not Online!!!**

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Kurnost wrote:
I miss the hell out of the 7th ed armies, they seemed to have the fluff/fiction done amazingly well. Formation shenanigans aside, you could play YOUR army as YOUR army!

To the point of the post, agree 100%. Would love to see the Marks actually do something. Would like to see customisation options for the different versions of cultist represented in the fiction. I want the Nurgle worshiping dudes in exo's the Dark Angels face. I want the Blood Pact, the Sons of Sek. Hell, the option for a decent heavy weapon on a cultist squad. Will probably use the GSC to represent my dark mechanicum thrall units, but it's a poor stand-in.

GW need to get back to including the fluff in the army building options. My 2 cents.

Also, have contacted FW on rules queries more than once and they are terrible at returning emails. Most I got back was 'we haven't done that, use whatever works for you' when asking about chapter tactics for their marines :/

Did we play the same 7e? Like, everything was rigidly locked into to fielding specific units for specific bonuses, which seems to me the exact opposite of playing your army as your army.

I don't think we need more fluff rules or anything like that. We already kind of have too much in the form of Chapter Tactics. Power armor is power armor, the variance is negligible. The more the fluff and rules are tied together, the less yours your army becomes.

IA13 was the exception to that rule. Well R&H were.
Even the R&H formations were relatively easy to fill in a way you liked. Granted they were also flying rodent gak insane, that is why in the rewrite i attempt i won't even go near them with an 20m pole.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bobthehero wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Agamemnon2 wrote:
Isn't it essentially confirmed that FW will be focusing on HH and specialist games from here on out. That is to say, all of their 40k range is being discontinued?

certainly feels that way.

Should have seen it coming I guess, I guess its a good thing I was pretty much done with my Krieg army

dosen't change the fact that the rules are now fethed so hard that it isn't even funny to field my list.
Not to mention that it sometimes completely saps my will to continue my project blog.

**Agamemnon2**

Bobthehero wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Agamemnon2 wrote:
Isn't it essentially confirmed that FW will be focusing on HH and specialist games from here on out. That is to say, all of their 40k range is being discontinued?

certainly feels that way.

Should have seen it coming I guess, I guess its a good thing I was pretty much done with my Krieg army

They've been gutting their product range with such haste that at times it's felt like someone's given the Infinity Gauntlet to this guy.

**Not Online!!!**

Agamemnon2 wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Agamemnon2 wrote:
Isn't it essentially confirmed that FW will be focusing on HH and specialist games from here on out. That is to say, all of their 40k range is being discontinued?

certainly feels that way.

Should have seen it coming I guess, I guess its a good thing I was pretty much done with my Krieg army

They've been gutting their product range with such haste that at times it's felt like someone's given the Infinity Gauntlet to this guy.

Well tbf, renegades sold so poorly since they were A damn expensive, since you always needed a cadian set on top of the renegade set. and they were a horde army and
B, more importantly, their rules in 8th edition are gak. There is a reason why there are nearly no Renegade players playing anymore after IA13 got declared ilegal.

And let me tell you, it ain't funny watching the index list.

**Agamemnon2**

I've not pulled the trigger on the FW Indexes yet. I assume the Guard stuff is equally unplayable? Which hurts me because I own three quad-launchers among other things, stuff that cannot be proxied for better units. Bah humbug.

**Not Online!!!**

Agamemnon2 wrote:
I've not pulled the trigger on the FW Indexes yet. I assume the Guard stuff is equally unplayable? Which hurts me because I own three quad-launchers among other things, stuff that cannot be proxied for better units. Bah humbug.

When you pay 4ppm for a unit with a 6+ SV, ws/BS 5+ and a ld of d6+2 and this is your core unit then i want to see you still be optimistic.

**Bobthehero**

Best you could do is put the guns on some sort of vehicle and proxy it as Wyverns

**Agamemnon2**

Bobthehero wrote:
Best you could do is put the guns on some sort of vehicle and proxy it as Wyverns

That's a ludicrous suggestion from a practical viewpoint. I'd have to de-base my artillery. That isn't going to happen, as neither the metal thudd gun or the resin Forge World version would survive the operation, and the conversion would look like garbage anyway since it'd be the worst kind of modelling project: something done against my will to secure a mechanical advantage by sacrificing aesthetics. No, I would rather lose every single game of 8th edition than compromise on that. I bought expensive vintage and Forgeworld units, spent countless hours modeling, basing, and painting them to their current state, I've played with them for many years across three different prior editions. Abandoning them now, or worse, tearing them apart to reform into a slapdash, unwanted state is abominable to me.

That makes me an awful Warhammer gamer, I know, but if I wanted to play war with soulless, interchangeable gaming pieces, I'd play chess or Risk.

**Bobthehero**

Ah you based your Thudds, yeah that changes things

**Smirrors**

They should just allow guard to be taken by any faction as soup. Every army would have access to Loyal/Disloyal/Xeno32 base representing how easy mankind can be persuaded.

**Not Online!!!**

Smirrors wrote:
They should just allow guard to be taken by any faction as soup. Every army would have access to Loyal/Disloyal/Xeno32 base representing how easy mankind can be persuaded.

So in other news just feth those that had a vraksian army and their unique units?

**Agamemnon2**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Smirrors wrote:
They should just allow guard to be taken by any faction as soup. Every army would have access to Loyal/Disloyal/Xeno32 base representing how easy mankind can be persuaded.

So in other news just feth those that had a vraksian army and their unique units?

Sounds like that Forgeworld already spat at all of their customers' faces in what will in all likelihood be the final version of the rules for most of their (now all but discontinued) 40k model lines. It's things like this that make me not buy the whole Old-GW / New-GW routine. If the new and improved Games Workshop actually gave a tinker's ***** about their customers, they'd make Forgeworld fix this. FW isn't some kind of rogue state within GW that head office has no control over. And it's not asking for much either. A single technical writer with entry-level games development experience could make renegades and heretics playable (not tier-quality, but playable) in a single workday, max.

**Not Online!!!**

Agamemnon2 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Smirrors wrote:
They should just allow guard to be taken by any faction as soup. Every army would have access to Loyal/Disloyal/Xeno32 base representing how easy mankind can be persuaded.

So in other news just feth those that had a vraksian army and their unique units?

Sounds like that Forgeworld already spat at all of their customers' faces in what will in all likelihood be the final version of the rules for most of their (now all but discontinued) 40k model lines. It's things like this that make me not buy the whole Old-GW / New-GW routine. If the new and improved Games Workshop actually gave a tinker's ***** about their customers, they'd make Forgeworld fix this. FW isn't some kind of rogue state within GW that head office has no control over. And it's not asking for much either. A single technical writer with entry-level games development experience could make renegades and heretics playable (not tier-quality, but playable) in a single workday, max.

You know the irony, when i wrote a mail to FW with several faults in the index (missing charachter keywords, etc.) i got no answer from FW, i wrote the same e-mail a day later to GW which then promptly said they'd look into it and that i was right that the charachter keyword was missing on enforcers and Renegade commanders.

I seriously belive they just want FW to produce HH marines, because auxilia also is in a unupdated shape, but hey they now want to make 10 more books for HH but not even all legions are out yet.....

Feth em.