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Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




fithos wrote:
I think it's interesting how many people basically only use their cp for rerolls. It makes me wonder if maybe that stratagem isn't too powerful. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing command reroll nerfed (maybe once per game) or removed entirely since in my opinion it throws off the narrative of the game and frequently just serves to slow down the game while people hem and haw about if they want to reroll something.
.


I remember having a discussion in my gaming group about whether the 3 rulebook stratagems should all be scrapped. We came to the conclusion the game probably wouldn't suffer if they were and might actually be more interesting. Probably too radical a change for GW to implement though.
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






It would seem that my army sucks even with them lol.
   
Made in ca
Wicked Wych With a Whip




I really hate a 2 up invulnerable, re-rollable.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





Oregon, USA

The new GSC are basically unplayable without stratagems, and close to unplayable with them unless you are building in very specific ways.

The Viletide: Daemons of Nurgle/Deathguard: 7400 pts
Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts
GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
 
   
Made in us
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




1ksons, while better with strats, can win games without. Most of our strats are so lack luster they don't even factor in. -1 AP to a bolter for 1 CP. That's my favorite.
   
Made in au
Been Around the Block




I primarily play Death Guard and I would say I use Veterans of the Long War every turn. I also run a lot of multimeltas so I lean pretty heavily on Command Reroll as well. Other than those two the rest are pretty situational. There's some fun tricks in there but not really anything else I actually use very often.
   
Made in us
Proven Tomahawk Destroid Pilot





Livermore, Ca

I've played a few games so far, Eldar, Tau and CSM. Pretty sure I only use strats before the game and mostly for rerolls. Seems like we can speed the game up and dump them.

My avatar: Tournaments - "Yeah, its kinda like that"
 
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




NY

It would make the game easier. My CSM blow through cp on VotLW and EC, renegade knights on rerolls and ion shield, but still hardly manage against my T'au.

Then tau hardly need em. Riptides are great without their pick two strat which bring them to auto include. Taking away cover is nice but marker lights. Extra lights is nice or they could make individual applications better (d3?). Giving an opponent unit -1 hit its great but we shouldn't need it. Focus fire is overkill. Regain wounds and highest profile take away opponents victories.

Verdict me is wouldn't miss them. Maybe make some unit or system abilities.
   
Made in gb
Freaky Flayed One




My Necrons rely on them for a shred of consistency, even beyond Elimination Protocols which is used every turn Destroyers are alive.

Space Marin Strats suck, so wouldn't miss them there as much. It'd be interesting to see how to game balance would shift without them. There would still be top and bottom tiers, but I think the gap between them would shrink.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Dashofpepper wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Well, Marines suck with strategems...


There are a couple of fun ones.

I've had a couple of hilarious instances of people reserving in / deep striking in range of my Aggressors using an Auspex scan. Those aggressors can shoot up to 24 shots per model. With an auspex scan, 28-48 bolter shots per model. Add in -1 AP and rerolls with buffs, it's obscene.

Getting a smashcaptain into something important, and getting to fight a second time is fun too.


How are you getting -1 AP on an Aggressor? For that matter, how are you counting 48 shots per model on Auspex? At most they can get 24.

Fight twice with a smash-captain is nice on the rare occasions you get to use it. Most of the time he has killed eveything in reach and is no longer in melee to use the strat or whatever he charged killed him.
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






CSM (particularly Renegades) barely use Stratagems anyway, but my Eldar would take a small, but negligible hit.

 
   
Made in gb
Numberless Necron Warrior



United Kingdom

Necrons would be mostly okay; Extermination Protocols is good but not mandatory. Our transports would be even worse without enhanced/emergency invasion beams.
   
Made in gb
Cultist of Nurgle with Open Sores






As a death guard player, I'd miss my rerolls but that's pretty much it.

3500; 1000
LoN: 4000; NH 1000 
   
Made in ca
Whiteshield Conscript Trooper



Ontario, Canada

Mono Guard, fluffy lists, and semi-competitive matches. My friends and I are more interested in a good battle going the distance than someone giving up before the halftime toke break.

The first year of 8th, I didn't use stratagems if I was playing an Index army, and even today I try to keep it proportionate to what the other player is bringing. I usually end the game with 75% of my starting CP.

No qualms about dialing up the cheese if it's required though...

Discipline a heretic, and he'll be loyal for a moment. Put him to the flame, and he'll be loyal for the rest of his life 
   
Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin




San Diego, CA

Custodes don't need them; in a WS2+/BS2+ re-roll 1s army you just don't need that much buffing. I've basically said that vertus praetors are the perfect unit since they came out partially because of this (they re-roll wounds on the charge, too).

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
 
   
Made in au
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





As mono-DG if they removed stratagems I'd hardly feel it. We only have handful and most are terrible with only a couple seeing regular use


"You are my unbroken blades. You are the Death Guard. By your hand shall justice be delivered, and doom shall stalk a thousand worlds."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle


5600 | 2800 | 850 | 4000 | 3300 | 550

 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




My tau would be hot garbage. I start with 20 command points. I'll use 7+ per battle round.

I'd miss them in my space marines as well. Typically the local scene is stuck in 7th edition and doesn't like to use them, so they give my space marines enough of an edge to win vs better armies.
   
Made in hk
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control




 Dashofpepper wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Well, Marines suck with strategems...


There are a couple of fun ones.

I've had a couple of hilarious instances of people reserving in / deep striking in range of my Aggressors using an Auspex scan. Those aggressors can shoot up to 24 shots per model. With an auspex scan, 28-48 bolter shots per model. Add in -1 AP and rerolls with buffs, it's obscene.

Getting a smashcaptain into something important, and getting to fight a second time is fun too.


The only good ones in SM is the Hellfire Shells and Flakk Missile, for its low costs and the Cherub's shoot again ability. The fight twice one and the Only in Death one is average, but not great because SM's great close combat units is limited, and their character lack number of attacks despite those attack usually comes with high quality, so it is not easy to ultilize.
Auspex Scan would seldom worth the 2CP, since 1: limited distance of 12", and 2: -1 to hit. I tried it a few months ago with my 4 strong Aggressor near my Captain, and only killed 2 Necron Immortals that deep striked in cover. 1.5 yrs ago I tried it with my 5 man Sternguard shooting at a squad of Chaos Raptors just DS in, killing only 1.
So yeah, Marine sucks with stratagem. If you take all factions' strategems away wholesale, the level of suck for Space Marine (compare to the situation with stratagem) drops in might be less than many other armies, tough they still suck.
   
Made in cz
Aspirant Tech-Adept






Fortress world of Ostrakan

Since half of Guard stratagems are situational at best and nearly useless at worst, I think they would just get a bit less effective, but far from getting useless.


4th Neutran Armoured "Ghost Division", Ostrakan 1st Legion, Order of the Silver Hand
A detailed fan-lore article about the Solar system of Europa. Place from which my armies are from. Hot topic: Help with forging of an antagonist faction






 
   
Made in hk
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control




 Hawky wrote:
Since half of Guard stratagems are situational at best and nearly useless at worst, I think they would just get a bit less effective, but far from getting useless.


That is the reason now Guards are mainly Loyal 32 in competitive lists.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





You can pry "Extermination Protocols" from my cold dead metallic hands !!!!
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

I haven't gotten to play with the new Crimson Fists Stratagems (either the Liberator Strike Force or the Index Astartes), so I can't really say. I like to drop Honour the Chapter in CC with the Fist of Vengeance Captain (or Only in Death Does Duty End if he dies), but overall I am mostly just using the reroll Stratagem. So it isn't a huge loss if Stratagems are gone. I have almost ended every game with CP in my pocket.

5250 pts
3850 pts
Deathwatch: 1500 pts
Imperial Knights: 375 pts
30K 2500 pts 
   
Made in cz
Aspirant Tech-Adept






Fortress world of Ostrakan

Neophyte2012 wrote:
 Hawky wrote:
Since half of Guard stratagems are situational at best and nearly useless at worst, I think they would just get a bit less effective, but far from getting useless.

That is the reason now Guards are mainly Loyal 32 in competitive lists.


I'd say the reason is that they provide the largest amount of CPs for the lowest price, but hey, details.


4th Neutran Armoured "Ghost Division", Ostrakan 1st Legion, Order of the Silver Hand
A detailed fan-lore article about the Solar system of Europa. Place from which my armies are from. Hot topic: Help with forging of an antagonist faction






 
   
Made in nl
Raging Ravener




My (casual, non-alaitoc) eldar would be noticeably less tough, fast, psykery and/or annoying without strats. I usually blow through my 9-14 cp by the end of turn two when playing conservatively, and I hardly ever use the reroll.
   
Made in ch
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





 Hawky wrote:
Neophyte2012 wrote:
 Hawky wrote:
Since half of Guard stratagems are situational at best and nearly useless at worst, I think they would just get a bit less effective, but far from getting useless.

That is the reason now Guards are mainly Loyal 32 in competitive lists.


I'd say the reason is that they provide the largest amount of CPs for the lowest price, but hey, details.


Well it does help to gain access to better non guard stratagems on models that benefit more from your CP.-.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in cz
Aspirant Tech-Adept






Fortress world of Ostrakan

Not Online!!! wrote:
 Hawky wrote:
Neophyte2012 wrote:
 Hawky wrote:
Since half of Guard stratagems are situational at best and nearly useless at worst, I think they would just get a bit less effective, but far from getting useless.
That is the reason now Guards are mainly Loyal 32 in competitive lists.
I'd say the reason is that they provide the largest amount of CPs for the lowest price, but hey, details.
Well it does help to gain access to better non guard stratagems on models that benefit more from your CP.-.


Sure, but that's irrelevant now. Discussing this is not the topic of this thread.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/14 11:43:35



4th Neutran Armoured "Ghost Division", Ostrakan 1st Legion, Order of the Silver Hand
A detailed fan-lore article about the Solar system of Europa. Place from which my armies are from. Hot topic: Help with forging of an antagonist faction






 
   
Made in ch
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





 Hawky wrote:

Sure, but that's irrelevant now. Discussing this is not the topic of this thread.


Yes and No. because Factions overall have more chances to get Access somehow to Stratagems worth their salt. Compared to monodex forced Xenos.

No because in a monodex scenario, as the question is posed, i guess guard would just be meh.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/14 11:45:51


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in us
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





The Eternity Gate

DG, Khorne, and IH no, they are both early codexs and I wouldn't notice much.

My IKs/Ad Mech yes. Knights especially are reliant on the strategems.

01001000 01100001 01101001 01101100 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01001110 01100101 01100011 01110010 01101111 01101110 00100000 01101111 01110110 01100101 01110010 01101100 01101111 01110010 01100100 01110011 00100001  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




My marines wouldn't really care, they would miss the odd troll moments of double beatdown Callgar or BobbyG or the he's dead oh no he's not moment's. But the list wouldn't change not would it's performance.

My Tau would get way weaker and get steamrolled by a number of lists they can go at now by burning like 7-9 CP turn 1. But that's been an issue since the codex dropped of making rules into strategums and not recosting the units properly.

My knights would be wierdly effected and also kinda not as they only really get 2/3 strategums per game due to having no CP but the loss of additional warlord and relics would suck hard.

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Neophyte2012 wrote:
 Dashofpepper wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Well, Marines suck with strategems...


There are a couple of fun ones.

I've had a couple of hilarious instances of people reserving in / deep striking in range of my Aggressors using an Auspex scan. Those aggressors can shoot up to 24 shots per model. With an auspex scan, 28-48 bolter shots per model. Add in -1 AP and rerolls with buffs, it's obscene.

Getting a smashcaptain into something important, and getting to fight a second time is fun too.


The only good ones in SM is the Hellfire Shells and Flakk Missile, for its low costs and the Cherub's shoot again ability. The fight twice one and the Only in Death one is average, but not great because SM's great close combat units is limited, and their character lack number of attacks despite those attack usually comes with high quality, so it is not easy to ultilize.
Auspex Scan would seldom worth the 2CP, since 1: limited distance of 12", and 2: -1 to hit. I tried it a few months ago with my 4 strong Aggressor near my Captain, and only killed 2 Necron Immortals that deep striked in cover. 1.5 yrs ago I tried it with my 5 man Sternguard shooting at a squad of Chaos Raptors just DS in, killing only 1.
So yeah, Marine sucks with stratagem. If you take all factions' strategems away wholesale, the level of suck for Space Marine (compare to the situation with stratagem) drops in might be less than many other armies, tough they still suck.


Auspex scan is over-costed, but sometimes you get lucky with it. Five Melee Terminators dropped too close to my Helblasters once, and I figured they were hosed anyway so I overcharged on them. Despite the 3++ and the -1 to hit I still wiped the unit. His saving throws were appalling.
   
 
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