Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

fithos wrote:
I think it's interesting how many people basically only use their cp for rerolls. It makes me wonder if maybe that stratagem isn't too powerful. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing command reroll nerfed (maybe once per game) or removed entirely since in my opinion it throws off the narrative of the game and frequently just serves to slow down the game while people hem and haw about if they want to reroll something.
.

I remember having a discussion in my gaming group about whether the 3 rulebook stratagems should all be scrapped. We came to the conclusion the game probably wouldn't suffer if they were and might actually be more interesting. Probably too radical a change for GW to implement though.

It would seem that my army sucks even with them lol.

I really hate a 2 up invulnerable, re-rollable.

The new GSC are basically unplayable without stratagems, and close to unplayable with them unless you are building in very specific ways.

1ksons, while better with strats, can win games without. Most of our strats are so lack luster they don't even factor in. -1 AP to a bolter for 1 CP. That's my favorite.

I primarily play Death Guard and I would say I use Veterans of the Long War every turn. I also run a lot of multimeltas so I lean pretty heavily on Command Reroll as well. Other than those two the rest are pretty situational. There's some fun tricks in there but not really anything else I actually use very often.

I've played a few games so far, Eldar, Tau and CSM. Pretty sure I only use strats before the game and mostly for rerolls. Seems like we can speed the game up and dump them.

It would make the game easier. My CSM blow through cp on VotLW and EC, renegade knights on rerolls and ion shield, but still hardly manage against my T'au.

Then tau hardly need em. Riptides are great without their pick two strat which bring them to auto include. Taking away cover is nice but marker lights. Extra lights is nice or they could make individual applications better (d3?). Giving an opponent unit -1 hit its great but we shouldn't need it. Focus fire is overkill. Regain wounds and highest profile take away opponents victories.

Verdict me is wouldn't miss them. Maybe make some unit or system abilities.

My Necrons rely on them for a shred of consistency, even beyond Elimination Protocols which is used every turn Destroyers are alive.

Space Marin Strats suck, so wouldn't miss them there as much. It'd be interesting to see how to game balance would shift without them. There would still be top and bottom tiers, but I think the gap between them would shrink.

 Dashofpepper wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Well, Marines suck with strategems...

There are a couple of fun ones.

I've had a couple of hilarious instances of people reserving in / deep striking in range of my Aggressors using an Auspex scan. Those aggressors can shoot up to 24 shots per model. With an auspex scan, 28-48 bolter shots per model. Add in -1 AP and rerolls with buffs, it's obscene.

Getting a smashcaptain into something important, and getting to fight a second time is fun too.

How are you getting -1 AP on an Aggressor? For that matter, how are you counting 48 shots per model on Auspex? At most they can get 24.

Fight twice with a smash-captain is nice on the rare occasions you get to use it. Most of the time he has killed eveything in reach and is no longer in melee to use the strat or whatever he charged killed him.

CSM (particularly Renegades) barely use Stratagems anyway, but my Eldar would take a small, but negligible hit.

Necrons would be mostly okay; Extermination Protocols is good but not mandatory. Our transports would be even worse without enhanced/emergency invasion beams.

As a death guard player, I'd miss my rerolls but that's pretty much it.

Mono Guard, fluffy lists, and semi-competitive matches. My friends and I are more interested in a good battle going the distance than someone giving up before the halftime toke break.

The first year of 8th, I didn't use stratagems if I was playing an Index army, and even today I try to keep it proportionate to what the other player is bringing. I usually end the game with 75% of my starting CP.

No qualms about dialing up the cheese if it's required though...

Custodes don't need them; in a WS2+/BS2+ re-roll 1s army you just don't need that much buffing. I've basically said that vertus praetors are the perfect unit since they came out partially because of this (they re-roll wounds on the charge, too).

As mono-DG if they removed stratagems I'd hardly feel it. We only have handful and most are terrible with only a couple seeing regular use

My tau would be hot garbage. I start with 20 command points. I'll use 7+ per battle round.

I'd miss them in my space marines as well. Typically the local scene is stuck in 7th edition and doesn't like to use them, so they give my space marines enough of an edge to win vs better armies.

 Dashofpepper wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Well, Marines suck with strategems...

There are a couple of fun ones.

I've had a couple of hilarious instances of people reserving in / deep striking in range of my Aggressors using an Auspex scan. Those aggressors can shoot up to 24 shots per model. With an auspex scan, 28-48 bolter shots per model. Add in -1 AP and rerolls with buffs, it's obscene.

Getting a smashcaptain into something important, and getting to fight a second time is fun too.

The only good ones in SM is the Hellfire Shells and Flakk Missile, for its low costs and the Cherub's shoot again ability. The fight twice one and the Only in Death one is average, but not great because SM's great close combat units is limited, and their character lack number of attacks despite those attack usually comes with high quality, so it is not easy to ultilize.
Auspex Scan would seldom worth the 2CP, since 1: limited distance of 12", and 2: -1 to hit. I tried it a few months ago with my 4 strong Aggressor near my Captain, and only killed 2 Necron Immortals that deep striked in cover. 1.5 yrs ago I tried it with my 5 man Sternguard shooting at a squad of Chaos Raptors just DS in, killing only 1.
So yeah, Marine sucks with stratagem. If you take all factions' strategems away wholesale, the level of suck for Space Marine (compare to the situation with stratagem) drops in might be less than many other armies, tough they still suck.

Since half of Guard stratagems are situational at best and nearly useless at worst, I think they would just get a bit less effective, but far from getting useless.

 Hawky wrote:
Since half of Guard stratagems are situational at best and nearly useless at worst, I think they would just get a bit less effective, but far from getting useless.

That is the reason now Guards are mainly Loyal 32 in competitive lists.

You can pry "Extermination Protocols" from my cold dead metallic hands !!!!

I haven't gotten to play with the new Crimson Fists Stratagems (either the Liberator Strike Force or the Index Astartes), so I can't really say. I like to drop Honour the Chapter in CC with the Fist of Vengeance Captain (or Only in Death Does Duty End if he dies), but overall I am mostly just using the reroll Stratagem. So it isn't a huge loss if Stratagems are gone. I have almost ended every game with CP in my pocket.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
Since half of Guard stratagems are situational at best and nearly useless at worst, I think they would just get a bit less effective, but far from getting useless.

That is the reason now Guards are mainly Loyal 32 in competitive lists.

I'd say the reason is that they provide the largest amount of CPs for the lowest price, but hey, details.

My (casual, non-alaitoc) eldar would be noticeably less tough, fast, psykery and/or annoying without strats. I usually blow through my 9-14 cp by the end of turn two when playing conservatively, and I hardly ever use the reroll.

 Hawky wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
Since half of Guard stratagems are situational at best and nearly useless at worst, I think they would just get a bit less effective, but far from getting useless.

That is the reason now Guards are mainly Loyal 32 in competitive lists.

I'd say the reason is that they provide the largest amount of CPs for the lowest price, but hey, details.

Well it does help to gain access to better non guard stratagems on models that benefit more from your CP.-.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Hawky wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
Since half of Guard stratagems are situational at best and nearly useless at worst, I think they would just get a bit less effective, but far from getting useless.

That is the reason now Guards are mainly Loyal 32 in competitive lists.

I'd say the reason is that they provide the largest amount of CPs for the lowest price, but hey, details.

Well it does help to gain access to better non guard stratagems on models that benefit more from your CP.-.

Sure, but that's irrelevant now. Discussing this is not the topic of this thread.

 Hawky wrote:

Sure, but that's irrelevant now. Discussing this is not the topic of this thread.

Yes and No. because Factions overall have more chances to get Access somehow to Stratagems worth their salt. Compared to monodex forced Xenos.

No because in a monodex scenario, as the question is posed, i guess guard would just be meh.

DG, Khorne, and IH no, they are both early codexs and I wouldn't notice much.

My IKs/Ad Mech yes. Knights especially are reliant on the strategems.

My marines wouldn't really care, they would miss the odd troll moments of double beatdown Callgar or BobbyG or the he's dead oh no he's not moment's. But the list wouldn't change not would it's performance.

My Tau would get way weaker and get steamrolled by a number of lists they can go at now by burning like 7-9 CP turn 1. But that's been an issue since the codex dropped of making rules into strategums and not recosting the units properly.

My knights would be wierdly effected and also kinda not as they only really get 2/3 strategums per game due to having no CP but the loss of additional warlord and relics would suck hard.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Dashofpepper wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Well, Marines suck with strategems...

There are a couple of fun ones.

I've had a couple of hilarious instances of people reserving in / deep striking in range of my Aggressors using an Auspex scan. Those aggressors can shoot up to 24 shots per model. With an auspex scan, 28-48 bolter shots per model. Add in -1 AP and rerolls with buffs, it's obscene.

Getting a smashcaptain into something important, and getting to fight a second time is fun too.

The only good ones in SM is the Hellfire Shells and Flakk Missile, for its low costs and the Cherub's shoot again ability. The fight twice one and the Only in Death one is average, but not great because SM's great close combat units is limited, and their character lack number of attacks despite those attack usually comes with high quality, so it is not easy to ultilize.
Auspex Scan would seldom worth the 2CP, since 1: limited distance of 12", and 2: -1 to hit. I tried it a few months ago with my 4 strong Aggressor near my Captain, and only killed 2 Necron Immortals that deep striked in cover. 1.5 yrs ago I tried it with my 5 man Sternguard shooting at a squad of Chaos Raptors just DS in, killing only 1.
So yeah, Marine sucks with stratagem. If you take all factions' strategems away wholesale, the level of suck for Space Marine (compare to the situation with stratagem) drops in might be less than many other armies, tough they still suck.

Auspex scan is over-costed, but sometimes you get lucky with it. Five Melee Terminators dropped too close to my Helblasters once, and I figured they were hosed anyway so I overcharged on them. Despite the 3++ and the -1 to hit I still wiped the unit. His saving throws were appalling.