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It's a start. GK in theory are so piss poor at this point, they need a complete rebuild. They are fluff designed to "Rock/paper/scissors" a single faction (daemons), and they suck at even that. Until they get a full fluff rebuild, they will continue to be hot garbage built around an idea that was invalid on launch day.

 LunarSol wrote:

A.T. wrote:
The top end of the knights power comes from their stratagems (typically fuelled by non-knight allies) and Cawls Wrath. Without them they are like chaos knights - which is to say perfectly decent but by no means indispensable.
So they are mostly fixed by GW fixing the rest of the game with regards to CP generation and relic power/cost. In so far as any of the apocalyptic scale units can really be said to be working at 40k scale.

I'm not sure you even need to go that far. Cawl's Wrath alone seems to be the breaking point for Knights. That thing is so meta warping its hard to really tell how everything else measures up and I'd hate to go crazy on changes without fixing it first.

Well, it’s kind of both Cawl’s Wrath with the strat that lets you reroll all ones (including # of shots), but yeah you guys have hit the nail on the head just like most sensible people. Castellans without relics and strats are not anything to write home about (see: renegade knights). Idk if there’s an easy fix besides increasing the Raven strat cost or something. If you increase the cost of Castellan you just make it auto-lose in any configuration besides guard brigade + Castellan, or just auto lose period. I know lots of people would say “great” but lots of people bought these super sweet looking models and like to actually use them in games :(. I also feel bad for Eldar players with wraith knights.

GW has put themselves in a bit of a pickle by not having any cost attached to Relics. Maybe have even your first relic cost a CP? Idk it’s a tough one.

Ice_can wrote:

Heck even the guy who won LVO said he doesn't see what GW can do to stop an Auxiliary Raven Castellen being broken.

I can: Nerf Order of Companions.
Right now it gives you reroll 1's for :
# of attacks
Hits
Wounds
Damage

A stratagem that buffs 4 seperate rolls. It doesn't matter if they make it 4CP. In its current incarnation OOC will be either auto-use or never use.

Lower its CP and change it to reroll only hits and wounds of 1. Or reroll one of those 4.

Another option is if you're using a Super Heavy Auxiliary you may ONLY include a Freeblade. But that's too limiting in my eyes.

For GKs specifically I think one thing that might be a big boost is to bring back the rule that said that Nemesis force weapons ignore Invulnerable saves. This would help against daemons and would just be a good boost in general for their melee capability. Also, in regards specifically to daemons, that strat should be limited to non-character infantry units and only once per game.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
For GKs specifically I think one thing that might be a big boost is to bring back the rule that said that Nemesis force weapons ignore Invulnerable saves. This would help against daemons and would just be a good boost in general for their melee capability. Also, in regards specifically to daemons, that strat should be limited to non-character infantry units and only once per game.

Ooh that’s a good idea, but maybe a little TOO good vs some units. Some things just simply suck without invuln saves. Maybe add a strat to activate this ability?

Edit: just noticed your last sentence so I’m assuming you meant as a stratagem?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It's a start. GK in theory are so piss poor at this point, they need a complete rebuild. They are fluff designed to "Rock/paper/scissors" a single faction (daemons), and they suck at even that. Until they get a full fluff rebuild, they will continue to be hot garbage built around an idea that was invalid on launch day.

Deathwatch are designed to counter xenos, but look at their rules. Outside their "fluff" stratagems. Their special rules work vs. everyone. If DW mission tactic only gave reroll 1s vs XENOS they'd be in the same boat.

GK on the other hand have dedicated anti-daemon relics, warlord traits, rules.

1 - Give GK Psybolt ammo on everyone. And retweak their rules.

2- Daemonslayer (reroll wounds vs DAEMONS) can simply become 6s (or 6+, leaning to flat 6s) to wound in melee become (Weapon Damage) MW.

3 - Psychic Power Limitation. Only having 6 powers really hurts GKs and needs to be addressed.
(Personally I'd also like to help differentiate GKs from TS. So instead of 1MW smite. They could replace Smite with a Psy-Shield which lets them ignore the first MW or first USW they suffer until the start of their next turn. Gives them

No, that was my mistake. I meant the last sentence to refer to the daemon's ability to bring back units for as long as they have the CPs.

Making the invuln modifier a strat isn't a bad idea if it was a 1 point strat. Let me point out that SM have a psychic ability that does the same sort of thing.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
For GKs specifically I think one thing that might be a big boost is to bring back the rule that said that Nemesis force weapons ignore Invulnerable saves.

You mean back when the Nemesis Weapons changed depending on who used it and on non-Characters/ non-Sergeants they were "AP0"?

That would be a huge step backwards. (Except allowing all GKs to become significantly cheaper)

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
No, that was my mistake. I meant the last sentence to refer to the daemon's ability to bring back units for as long as they have the CPs.

Making the invuln modifier a strat isn't a bad idea if it was a 1 point strat. Let me point out that SM have a psychic ability that does the same sort of thing.

Maybe make them work like the Xenophase blade and make the enemy reroll successful invuln saves if you don’t want them to be locked behind a stratagem.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It's a start. GK in theory are so piss poor at this point, they need a complete rebuild. They are fluff designed to "Rock/paper/scissors" a single faction (daemons), and they suck at even that.

It's because they were changed by Ward to be Rock/paper/scissors to space marines rather than daemons. The oldschool daemonhunters were high strength first, armour penetration second.

A.T. wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It's a start. GK in theory are so piss poor at this point, they need a complete rebuild. They are fluff designed to "Rock/paper/scissors" a single faction (daemons), and they suck at even that.

It's because they were changed by Ward to be Rock/paper/scissors to space marines rather than daemons. The oldschool daemonhunters were high strength first, armour penetration second.

We could just fluff in they get wiped out, and roll their special gak into DW. I mean, there is literally no point to their existence, even model wise. Fluff wise they are replaced by Primaris/DW. Model-wise they are replaced by Custards. Outside of Mini-smite, what do GK bring to the table? Weak shooting and over costed models, HO!

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
We could just fluff in they get wiped out, and roll their special gak into DW. I mean, there is literally no point to their existence, even model wise. Fluff wise they are replaced by Primaris/DW. Model-wise they are replaced by Custards. Outside of Mini-smite, what do GK bring to the table? Weak shooting and over costed models, HO!

They'd be a great element in a more complete talons of the emperor faction - bringing the middle ground between the custodes and sisters as a medium range/counter assault unit with psychic and other special abilities.

Deathwatch on the other hand have very little point to their existence. They are a subset of marine units with special ammo that could be largely represented by a black templars-style chapter tactic and a few unique units in the core space marine book. Unlike DA and BA they haven't been spun off with extra toys to the point where they can't be folded back in with minimal change.

Loafing wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Heck even the guy who won LVO said he doesn't see what GW can do to stop an Auxiliary Raven Castellen being broken.

I can: Nerf Order of Companions.
Right now it gives you reroll 1's for :
# of attacks
Hits
Wounds
Damage

A stratagem that buffs 4 seperate rolls. It doesn't matter if they make it 4CP. In its current incarnation OOC will be either auto-use or never use.

Lower its CP and change it to reroll only hits and wounds of 1. Or reroll one of those 4.

Another option is if you're using a Super Heavy Auxiliary you may ONLY include a Freeblade. But that's too limiting in my eyes.

If you are going to quote me, quoting Brandon Grant atleast do both of us the courtesy of being accurate, instead of wilful misrepresentation.

It's borderline tabloid journalist level of exceptionally bad faith to deliberately quote something out of context to support your predetermined argument.

How to fix Sisters: Add more damn unit types already! More variety.

Quasistellar wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

A.T. wrote:
The top end of the knights power comes from their stratagems (typically fuelled by non-knight allies) and Cawls Wrath. Without them they are like chaos knights - which is to say perfectly decent but by no means indispensable.
So they are mostly fixed by GW fixing the rest of the game with regards to CP generation and relic power/cost. In so far as any of the apocalyptic scale units can really be said to be working at 40k scale.

I'm not sure you even need to go that far. Cawl's Wrath alone seems to be the breaking point for Knights. That thing is so meta warping its hard to really tell how everything else measures up and I'd hate to go crazy on changes without fixing it first.

Well, it’s kind of both Cawl’s Wrath with the strat that lets you reroll all ones (including # of shots), but yeah you guys have hit the nail on the head just like most sensible people. Castellans without relics and strats are not anything to write home about (see: renegade knights). Idk if there’s an easy fix besides increasing the Raven strat cost or something. If you increase the cost of Castellan you just make it auto-lose in any configuration besides guard brigade + Castellan, or just auto lose period. I know lots of people would say “great” but lots of people bought these super sweet looking models and like to actually use them in games :(. I also feel bad for Eldar players with wraith knights.

GW has put themselves in a bit of a pickle by not having any cost attached to Relics. Maybe have even your first relic cost a CP? Idk it’s a tough one.

In good news, the Castellan problem involves a LOT of dials. There a ton of ways to fix it without completely breaking it and GW seems to have a much steadier hand on the wheel these days than the community does for maybe the first time ever.

The problem is, weak wounds are to cheap, and units with many rules are to costly.

GK points are fine if the units match the cost. In my opinion GKs should have their anti demon rules removed and made into an army wide tactic that belongs to a selection of choices you can choose from when you make your army... sort of like a chapter tactic. Each brotherhood has a tactic. Anti demon, or melee focused, shooting focused, etc.

GKs are weak because a number of their rules only ever apply against one specific army, ie demons. So against any other force they are already pre-nerfed by army rules alone. Add in the marine problem, gear selection and weak psychic phase and no wonder we are in such a state.

chnmmr wrote:

GKs are weak because a number of their rules only ever apply against one specific army, ie demons. So against any other force they are already pre-nerfed by army rules alone. Add in the marine problem, gear selection and weak psychic phase and no wonder we are in such a state.

And that army has a rule that grossly trumps any advantages GKs have....

Karol wrote:
Am not sure if a +1str worse hvy bolter is the way to fix GK. But then again, I have no idea how to fix them right, so in the end everything is better then it is now.

Grey Knights need a complete rework of how they function in the psychic phase, as well as enhanced stratagems and more overall powers. What makes GK unique is the psychic element. Right now they're just less-shooty deathwatch because they don't bring anything else to the table.

Buff their psychic, it's what makes them unique.

 Marmatag wrote:

Karol wrote:
Am not sure if a +1str worse hvy bolter is the way to fix GK. But then again, I have no idea how to fix them right, so in the end everything is better then it is now.

Grey Knights need a complete rework of how they function in the psychic phase, as well as enhanced stratagems and more overall powers. What makes GK unique is the psychic element. Right now they're just less-shooty deathwatch because they don't bring anything else to the table.

Buff their psychic, it's what makes them unique.

This. Better and more powers along with force weapons that actually do something worth their cost would go a long ways towards buffing Grey knights in a way that also accurately reflects their niche.

 ikeulhu wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Karol wrote:
Am not sure if a +1str worse hvy bolter is the way to fix GK. But then again, I have no idea how to fix them right, so in the end everything is better then it is now.

Grey Knights need a complete rework of how they function in the psychic phase, as well as enhanced stratagems and more overall powers. What makes GK unique is the psychic element. Right now they're just less-shooty deathwatch because they don't bring anything else to the table.

Buff their psychic, it's what makes them unique.

This. Better and more powers along with force weapons that actually do something worth their cost would go a long ways towards buffing Grey knights in a way that also accurately reflects their niche.

while offensive buffs would be great Gk I think they need some work on durability as well. maybe something like the legion of the damned with the inv saves or something. a 50% dmg output increase on a T4 1w 3+ model is still dying to 1/3 of wounds

You first need to define what constitutes a 'bad army'.

You then need to work through those defined bad armies and allocate an order of priority in some way.

I think this will be difficult and there will be many disagreements.

For example - I would argue that any army that can soup is stronger than any of those that can't. I would also argue that the outcome of certain buffs that are likely to be made permanent is not yet known in the meta (beta bolters) nor is the effect of the most recent codex.

I have recently argued that Orks are a weaker faction and many posters on this forum seem to disagree. Grey Knights are universally considered a weaker/the weakest faction but I suspect a small Grey Knight detachment in an otherwise competitive Imperium list would perform better than other factions people consider competitive.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
You first need to define what constitutes a 'bad army'.

You then need to work through those defined bad armies and allocate an order of priority in some way.

I think this will be difficult and there will be many disagreements.

For example - I would argue that any army that can soup is stronger than any of those that can't. I would also argue that the outcome of certain buffs that are likely to be made permanent is not yet known in the meta (beta bolters) nor is the effect of the most recent codex.

I have recently argued that Orks are a weaker faction and many posters on this forum seem to disagree. Grey Knights are universally considered a weaker/the weakest faction but I suspect a small Grey Knight detachment in an otherwise competitive Imperium list would perform better than other factions people consider competitive.

I would make the calculation far more complicated. Does an army improve, or lessen, anything it is souped with? I would argue that any list including GK is overall weaker for their presence. They are a overall negative force multiplier. Counter this with say, Guard Company Commanders. Overall, they bring a lot of value. They are a positive force multiplier, including CCs in your list makes the army stronger. Same with say, Bloat drones, Or Shield drones. There is very little that GK provide that cannot be better and cheaper provided by something else.

So your argument that because you can paid them with Baneblades, they are good, is slightly off.

 G00fySmiley wrote:


while offensive buffs would be great Gk I think they need some work on durability as well. maybe something like the legion of the damned with the inv saves or something. a 50% dmg output increase on a T4 1w 3+ model is still dying to 1/3 of wounds

Additional defensive psychic powers could handle that. Honestly, the fact that the most psychic based Imperium faction was given a small smattering of turds for powers is one of, if not THE biggest thing wrong with GK currently.

A.T. wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
We could just fluff in they get wiped out, and roll their special gak into DW. I mean, there is literally no point to their existence, even model wise. Fluff wise they are replaced by Primaris/DW. Model-wise they are replaced by Custards. Outside of Mini-smite, what do GK bring to the table? Weak shooting and over costed models, HO!

They'd be a great element in a more complete talons of the emperor faction - bringing the middle ground between the custodes and sisters as a medium range/counter assault unit with psychic and other special abilities.

Deathwatch on the other hand have very little point to their existence. They are a subset of marine units with special ammo that could be largely represented by a black templars-style chapter tactic and a few unique units in the core space marine book. Unlike DA and BA they haven't been spun off with extra toys to the point where they can't be folded back in with minimal change.

Except for the Corvis Blackstar. And the Infernus Heavy Bolter and Frag Cannon (seriously, no marine unit that could take the Frag Cannon would use anything else except Lascannons for the range). And DW vets get to take SS/SB and still put a heavy weapon in the squad, regular marines get some of the special ammo and heavy weapon options (Sternguard) or the SS/SB combo (Company Veterans) but not both.

There are a surprising number of basic Marine units/weapons that DW can't take though.

I'm still holding out hope that GK will get a formation in Vigilus 2. Master of possession making giant demon marines? Who you gonna call?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

For example - I would argue that any army that can soup is stronger than any of those that can't.

So your argument that because you can paid them with Baneblades, they are good, is slightly off.

Not my argument, see above.

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'm still holding out hope that GK will get a formation in Vigilus 2. Master of possession making giant demon marines? Who you gonna call?

I got this: If you field three GMDKs by their powers combined they form, ULTRAKNIGHT! 6D6 attacks at S20 -4AP 3 damage. Knows ALL Psychic Abilities. Can either take ULTRAKNIGHT Greatsword (+15inch reach) or 2x ULTRABLASTERS 4 shots at S4 -1AP 1D. Because GK shooting.....

Costs 16CP

The Newman wrote:
Except for the Corvis Blackstar. And the Infernus Heavy Bolter and Frag Cannon. And DW vets get to take SS/SB and still put a heavy weapon in the squad

Boils down to the veteran squad, artemis, the blackstar, perhaps the watch master, with the few unique items listed exclusively on the veteran list or an extra 'deathwatch equipment' list on the wargear page.
Chapter tactic grants mission tactics and makes special issue ammo a compulsory purchase. A few units like scouts are optionally unavailable in a deathwatch detachment. Vigilance incarnate as a deathwatch specific warlord trait (& strategems/relics).

I guest the big question is whether GW actually has somewhere to go with the faction.

I posted earlier in the Tournament Discussion and also on Reddit about some statistical analyses I did of the 2018 win rate data posted on 40kstats.com. Some of you might find that discussion relevant to the current discussion.

You can see the rest of the analyses in those threads, but I thought I would share one piece of the analysis which concerns army rankings. From my quick first pass (using a k-means clustering of mean win rankings), it seems like army rankings can be boiled down into 3 "tiers" of armies. Bad, Average, and Good. Adding additional "tiers" didn't explain a whole lot more variance in these data over lower cluster solutions. The 4 "tier" solution, for instance, just explains a little more variance than the 3 cluster solution, and splits Drukhari and Ynnari into their own top-tier ranking.