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nareik wrote: Fighting a primarch one on one would be the kind of arrogant behaviour that Abaddon hates Horus for.
Abaddon 'killed' Rogal Dorn (or at least has MIA presumed deaded him for thousands of years). I believe he got a bunch of Iron Warriors (who died in the process) to do the dirty work for him.
Am incorrect in that Abaddon is a "normal" marine? Wouldn't a primarch wipe the floor with him?
i think there is a very broad sliding scale for how well aspirants accept their geneseed.
Many reject it totally, either having no effect or suffering adverse side effects. Others accept it, but their growth and efficiency of the implants is stunted, so while they are at a peak level of human physicality they aren't really super human. Many come close to the tabletop typical space marine; very tough and strong with incredible abilities to heal or shrug off injury. A rare few are able to synergise with the geneseed nearly perfectly; taking their development to the absolute maximum of its capacity; stronger, tougher, faster and smarter than 99.99% of line astartes. These individuals become the most renowned chapter masters and champions; Sevatar, Dante and so on.
I see Abaddon as being one of these examples, but as an in augmented human he already has an impossibly good physique and mind, so after becoming a space marine his potential for growth and development outstripped that of even the most legendary space marines. Add to this his ability to barter for power from chaos without surrendering himself to it, his esoteric collection of artifacts, his ability to muster armies and navies, and the sheer scope of time he has been around to hone his mental and physical abilities I would say he is far beyond any 'normal' space marine.
I suggest he could face up to a weaker primarch tier warrior, but the odds wouldn't be in his favour. He wouldn't want to be in this situation, but if he was he probably would have a plot device artifact to turn the tables. There are certain behaviours the chaos gods expect their champions to engage in; Abaddon may sometime have his hand forced into entering such situations.
I had it in my head that Abaddon had not accepted any gifts due to what happened to Horus. If he did then I could definitely accept him as being overcharged now.
AS for the woman comments...WTF???
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
AlmightyWalrus wrote: He barely won against a Sigismund weakened by age, and lost a heart doing it. A Primarch should stomp him flat and eat his hat.
That's 9-10K years ago though, and before he got his hands on Drach'nyen and other chaotic gifts
It's 8k ago and with the Talon of Horus, which was powerful enough to kill Sanguinius. And he still nearly lost. Even the Chaos Marines present were awed by Sigismund's performance.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: He barely won against a Sigismund weakened by age, and lost a heart doing it. A Primarch should stomp him flat and eat his hat.
I believe it's called a hair squig, and come on, he's sensitive about that.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
nareik wrote: Fighting a primarch one on one would be the kind of arrogant behaviour that Abaddon hates Horus for.
Abaddon 'killed' Rogal Dorn (or at least has MIA presumed deaded him for thousands of years). I believe he got a bunch of Iron Warriors (who died in the process) to do the dirty work for him.
Am incorrect in that Abaddon is a "normal" marine? Wouldn't a primarch wipe the floor with him?
i think there is a very broad sliding scale for how well aspirants accept their geneseed.
Many reject it totally, either having no effect or suffering adverse side effects. Others accept it, but their growth and efficiency of the implants is stunted, so while they are at a peak level of human physicality they aren't really super human. Many come close to the tabletop typical space marine; very tough and strong with incredible abilities to heal or shrug off injury. A rare few are able to synergise with the geneseed nearly perfectly; taking their development to the absolute maximum of its capacity; stronger, tougher, faster and smarter than 99.99% of line astartes. These individuals become the most renowned chapter masters and champions; Sevatar, Dante and so on.
I see Abaddon as being one of these examples, but as an in augmented human he already has an impossibly good physique and mind, so after becoming a space marine his potential for growth and development outstripped that of even the most legendary space marines. Add to this his ability to barter for power from chaos without surrendering himself to it, his esoteric collection of artifacts, his ability to muster armies and navies, and the sheer scope of time he has been around to hone his mental and physical abilities I would say he is far beyond any 'normal' space marine.
I suggest he could face up to a weaker primarch tier warrior, but the odds wouldn't be in his favour. He wouldn't want to be in this situation, but if he was he probably would have a plot device artifact to turn the tables. There are certain behaviours the chaos gods expect their champions to engage in; Abaddon may sometime have his hand forced into entering such situations.
I had it in my head that Abaddon had not accepted any gifts due to what happened to Horus. If he did then I could definitely accept him as being overcharged now.
AS for the woman comments...WTF???
What woman comments? edit: oh those from the subsequent poster
In the rules Abaddon has variously had all four marks, the mark of chaos ascendent and possibly others. He has chaos power, but he doesn't take it as gifts, I suspect he batters for it in a different way to the other chaos champions.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AlmightyWalrus wrote: He barely won against a Sigismund weakened by age, and lost a heart doing it. A Primarch should stomp him flat and eat his hat.
wasn't Sigismond one of the few beings who could come remotely close to Primarchs at duelling?
In the last 8k years Abaddon has gotten stronger, better equipped and with better forces. He's gone from someone who could defeat a Primarch duellist to something even more powerful.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/24 08:26:01
Again, he went up against a weakened Sigismund and had his heart pierced. If Abaddon was weaker then than he is now, he still had a bit to go to catch up to Sigismund in his prime, and even Sigismund in his prime, the guy who out-angry'd Khârn, got into spitting distance of a Primarch at best. When he got killed, Sigismund was no longer within spitting distance of a Primarch; if he had been the First Black Crusade would have been the Last Black Crusade.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Again, he went up against a weakened Sigismund and had his heart pierced. If Abaddon was weaker then than he is now, he still had a bit to go to catch up to Sigismund in his prime, and even Sigismund in his prime, the guy who out-angry'd Khârn, got into spitting distance of a Primarch at best. When he got killed, Sigismund was no longer within spitting distance of a Primarch; if he had been the First Black Crusade would have been the Last Black Crusade.
I think it's safe to say that you're a little biased here. Lets remember that Sigismund got to fight that battle fresh and Abbaddon fought that battle after fighting his way through a Gloriana class battleship. It's pretty easy to assume that Sigismun is starting out with better equipment and more rested troops.
Abbaddon did kill a primarch clone so it clear he's more than capable of fighting one. A squad of random Alpha Legionaries threatened Guilliman during the heresy, Magnus has been defeated by several flavor of the week space wolves, and Mortarion got banhammered by Caldo Draigo. It's safe to say he can fight a primarch when the plot (sales) needs him to do that.
Curze has a slightly peculiar record. He managed to kill Vulkan several times, but Vulkan bests him in their last encounter whilst claiming he was always holding back his true strength.
He takes on the Lion and Guilliman at the same time and gives as good as he gets before flitting off; but the Lion manages to take him singlehandedly in the final encounter by predicting what he's going to do. It was only after the Lion had seen his tricks several dozen times and was able to lure Curze into a situation where he could nullify Curze's advantages without Curze initially realising that he was able to bring his martial skill to bear. Had Curze had time to come up with some new ploys of his own, he could well have won again. In a different scenario, Curze actually means to beat the Lion headon though. So it's really one of those 'who has the element of surprise/planning' scenarios between them, and a 40/60 in the favour of the Lion if everything is equal.
Corax literally has nightmares about Curze.
Curze fought on equal terms with Sanguinius, because had the same powers of precognition which allowed them both to effectively fight one step ahead. Both accept that each has an equal chance of killing the other.
I'd say Curze is probably around mid-tier in power, going to upper tier the more time he has to plan.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/19 18:35:12
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: It's safe to say he can fight a primarch when the plot (sales) needs him to do that.
Agreed. Although I'd really prefer the "plot" not need him to defeat Guilliman. Not that I have any particular bias for Guilly, but as the figurehead of the Imperium at the moment, his defeat at the hands of the Warmaster would have significant implications, both in-universe and symbolically. Guilly and Abby should definitely face off, but the stakes are a bit too high for either of them to lose to the other. Abby cannot lose because his model JUST came out. Guilly cannot lose because he's "the good guy" and GW won't let him lose. It needs to end is some kind of stalemate.
Which is why I really hope they bring Dante into the story and have him face-off (and lose to) Abaddon. It would mirror the end of the Horus Heresy, but allow the story to move forward in a new direction. Dante has to become a Primaris marine to save his life, prompting a new model. Abby gets to kick some butt and promote his new model, and Guilly gets to stay alive with no major defeat.
-
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/19 18:12:36
one way to have them face off would be to have Abaddon have an edge in the direct confrontation (with Gulliman escaping of course) but to have the ultramarines win their objective, or vice versa. so that at the very least GW can make people ask "... just as planned?"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: It's safe to say he can fight a primarch when the plot (sales) needs him to do that.
Agreed. Although I'd really prefer the "plot" not need him to defeat Guilliman. Not that I have any particular bias for Guilly, but as the figurehead of the Imperium at the moment, his defeat at the hands of the Warmaster would have significant implications, both in-universe and symbolically.
Guilly and Abby should definitely face off, but the stakes are a bit too high for either of them to lose to the other.
Abby cannot lose because his model JUST came out. Guilly cannot lose because he's "the good guy" and GW won't let him lose.
It needs to end is some kind of stalemate.
Which is why I really hope they bring Dante into the story and have him face-off (and lose to) Abaddon. It would mirror the end of the Horus Heresy, but allow the story to move forward in a new direction.
Dante has to become a Primaris marine to save his life, prompting a new model. Abby gets to kick some butt and promote his new model, and Guilly gets to stay alive with no major defeat.
-
I don't really want to see Abaddon vs Guilliman myself for much of the same reason. Frankly the stakes for any such fight will be low because GW will not kill either one off. Killing either one would be a huge middle finger to said side. The problem with having entrenched characters here is that none of them can die. By the same plot driven token, random primaris captain may make a heroic and explainable stand against the warmaster because the plot demands it.
Personally I think Abaddon will go on a mini rampage, look to secure his victory, and then a primarch shows up. Abbadon will retreat in the cobra command pod saying that he'll get him next time G I Guilliman. Oh wait wrong reference
The above is why I really prefer 40k as a setting not an active story. Due to massive plot moves or real stakes in a story would require GW to potentially drastically cut a model line or kill off a major character. They won't do that because it would affect their real world sales.
I would imagine the new might Abaddon model might not sell as well if right out the gate he gets his ass beat or he is killed off. At the same time Bobby G or even calgar the taller are not going to die for the same reasons. Over all this mean Vigilus really has no meaningful stakes.
HoundsofDemos wrote: The above is why I really prefer 40k as a setting not an active story. Due to massive plot moves or real stakes in a story would require GW to potentially drastically cut a model line or kill off a major character. They won't do that because it would affect their real world sales.
I would imagine the new might Abaddon model might not sell as well if right out the gate he gets his ass beat or he is killed off. At the same time Bobby G or even calgar the taller are not going to die for the same reasons. Over all this mean Vigilus really has no meaningful stakes.
yeah because who cares about the future of the Imperium if a named character doesn't die!
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Again though what really changes? Lets say everything on the wrong side of the line gets wiped out and the IOM loses one of two corridors to push to that part of the universe to gather survivors or take back territory. Did anything actually change?
Are any truly important chapters actually going to be wiped out? Are the Tau empire going to be utterly destroyed by the Tyranids and left to rot ? Are the Eldar ever going to actually kill the god of excess and remove them as a faction? etc, etc.
GW is limited in what it can do because any real/major changes would require deleting entire factions or radically changing how they function. Instead the best we get is a slightly modified status quo. Hell even Creed didn't die during Cadia getting blown up so he'll probably be back at some point.
That's not a bad thing in my opinion considering how GW botched a lot with the initial release of Sigmar. It lets your army be semi timeless and present.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/20 02:02:49
the_scotsman wrote: no, but he's already fought to essentially a draw with a woman, so I'm sure if GW ever had him fight a primarch they'd face a little fan conniption if it was even narratively interesting.
Either that or they'll have to pump up his power first. If recent major controversies in various nerd fandoms have made anything clear, people have a major problem in any fantasy setting if a woman can even possibly be construed to be anywhere near the power level of a major male character.
After all, that one time kylo ren took a shot to center mass from a massive laser crossbow that up until that point in the film had instantly killed all the armored soldiers it had been shot at, then he ran around bleeding for 15-20 minutes, then he got into a fight with a dude with basic combat training, barely beat him, took a second to remind the audience he was bleeding out and probably clinging to consciousness, and then he lost the SECOND fight to a woman.
And that was just the end of the fething world.
Wow, sexist much? The "woman" you are dismissing on the base of her gender, was Saint Celestine, and yes, she kicked his ass and prolly would have won had the necron pylons not been activated. But that's not a problem, because she's the biggest badass in the setting and is a direct representation of the will of the Emporer, so...
Abbaddon did kill a primarch clone so it clear he's more than capable of fighting one.
Abaddon and an entire room full of his allies, some of which were Chaos Lords in their own right, killed a Primarch clone. It's not as though it was a one-on-one duel, Horus Reborn had already had his face melted (literally!), Telemachon's swords were still stuck in his back, and so on.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Abbaddon did kill a primarch clone so it clear he's more than capable of fighting one.
Abaddon and an entire room full of his allies, some of which were Chaos Lords in their own right, killed a Primarch clone. It's not as though it was a one-on-one duel, Horus Reborn had already had his face melted (literally!), Telemachon's swords were still stuck in his back, and so on.
My kind of guy. As the immortal bard once said: "Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat."
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Curze has a slightly peculiar record. He managed to kill Vulkan several times, but Vulkan bests him in their last encounter whilst claiming he was always holding back his true strength.
He takes on the Lion and Guilliman at the same time and gives as good as he gets before flitting off; but the Lion manages to take him singlehandedly in the final encounter by predicting what he's going to do. It was only after the Lion had seen his tricks several dozen times and was able to lure Curze into a situation where he could nullify Curze's advantages without Curze initially realising that he was able to bring his martial skill to bear. Had Curze had time to come up with some new ploys of his own, he could well have won again. In a different scenario, Curze actually means to beat the Lion headon though. So it's really one of those 'who has the element of surprise/planning' scenarios between them, and a 40/60 in the favour of the Lion if everything is equal.
Corax literally has nightmares about Curze.
Curze fought on equal terms with Sanguinius, because had the same powers of precognition which allowed them both to effectively fight one step ahead. Both accept that each has an equal chance of killing the other.
I'd say Curze is probably around mid-tier in power, going to upper tier the more time he has to plan.
Still not confined Adadave could take, let alone kill, a Primarch.
But on a balanced view? If he had, we’d know about it. A ‘mere’ Chaos Lord, taking down something conceived and created by The Emperor? And the one who’s abilities and nous defied Horus?
That? I feel we as mere players would know beyond doubt.
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BrianDavion wrote: Here's an intreasting thought, what if Abaddon was the one who killed Dorn?
He killed Dorn in the same way as any other evil Godfather does; he got someone else to do the dirty work for him.
He is A Bad Don after all!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I like how it is an unresolved plot point.
Is Dorn really dead?
Did Abaddon kill him? Did he suicide waves of iron warriors and berserkers to kill him (a favoured Abaddon tactic)? Did he blow up the problem with a space ship (again classic Abaddon move)?
It feels like a real setting over story element which in turn allows players to discuss and decide on the details themselves!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/21 22:23:42
BrianDavion wrote: Here's an intreasting thought, what if Abaddon was the one who killed Dorn?
He killed Dorn in the same way as any other evil Godfather does; he got someone else to do the dirty work for him.
He is A Bad Don after all!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I like how it is an unresolved plot point.
Is Dorn really dead?
Did Abaddon kill him? Did he suicide waves of iron warriors and berserkers to kill him (a favoured Abaddon tactic)? Did he blow up the problem with a space ship (again classic Abaddon move)?
It feels like a real setting over story element which in turn allows players to discuss and decide on the details themselves!
IIRC right now the IF only recovered a missing hand of Dorn. It used to be that they found his whole corpse but then they retconned it to be only his fist. He was last seen boarding a Chaos ship so there's a chance he went missing after escaping the ship or he got pokeballed by Trazyn as well at somepoint during that kerfuffle but I feel they wouldn't lean on that too much given his recent exposure in Cadia's fall.
the_scotsman wrote: no, but he's already fought to essentially a draw with a woman, so I'm sure if GW ever had him fight a primarch they'd face a little fan conniption if it was even narratively interesting.
Either that or they'll have to pump up his power first. If recent major controversies in various nerd fandoms have made anything clear, people have a major problem in any fantasy setting if a woman can even possibly be construed to be anywhere near the power level of a major male character.
After all, that one time kylo ren took a shot to center mass from a massive laser crossbow that up until that point in the film had instantly killed all the armored soldiers it had been shot at, then he ran around bleeding for 15-20 minutes, then he got into a fight with a dude with basic combat training, barely beat him, took a second to remind the audience he was bleeding out and probably clinging to consciousness, and then he lost the SECOND fight to a woman.
And that was just the end of the fething world.
Wow, sexist much? The "woman" you are dismissing on the base of her gender, was Saint Celestine, and yes, she kicked his ass and prolly would have won had the necron pylons not been activated. But that's not a problem, because she's the biggest badass in the setting and is a direct representation of the will of the Emporer, so...
This post is incredibly incongruous. the_scotsman made a clear reference to how the "nerd fandom," would react, and gave a clear example of such a reaction in the past as precedent, before pointing out how silly that reaction was with a sarcastic quip, and then you feel the need to attack him as a sexist? I'm curious, if I made a post pointing out how a bunch of racists would probably react poorly to the Emperor being revealed as a black African, would you label me a racist too? Is your modus operandi for identifying undesirables just skimming a post for keywords you don't like and then reacting to them as fast as your impatient fingers can type?
The simple answer is no. He's never gone against a Primarch one-on-one.
And even with all of his gifts of Chaos and D'rachnen he still is weaker, slower, and less resilient than a Primarch.
There is no way he could compete against any of the Daemon Primarchs as they were already beyond his abilities before they ascended to daemonhood.
Against Guilliman I doubt he would be able to win.
Corennus wrote: Against Guilliman I doubt he would be able to win.
And even if he were able to pull a win, it would still be narratively unsatisfying as a fan of Abaddon.
A Bad Don's disdain for Horus allowing himself into a position where he had to face the Emperor 1:1 is such a large part of Abaddon's character, it would be disappointing to see Abaddon then put himself into a similar position with Guilliman.
Abbadon's strength is twofold; his bartered (not sold) relationship with Chaos and his Army/Navy building/leverage expertise.
What little we can glean, he defeated clone Horus with the aid of his armies, not one on one. He defeated Dorn by using an entire ship full of men / marines / daemons.
In neither instance did he risk fighting either of these primarch type beings alone / one on one.
Doing so for Guilliman would be a milestone for Abaddon, but also a step back for the character.
I suppose there would be a tragic poetry to Abaddon following the steps of his 'father' and trying to fight the figurehead of the Imperium man on man.
In Deliverence Lost, He tried to get smart with Alpharius, Right in front of Horus, Alpharius put him in check and Abaddon kind of stepped back and then stopped talking.
So not a fight, but I think he knew his place. Again this was right after Dropsite Mass, so he did not have all the blessings or Horus weapons at that time.
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KiloFiX wrote: Curze has fought almost every other Primarch though - Peturabo, Fulgrim, Lion, Gulliman, Sanguinius, Vulkan, Corax, Ferrus, Dorn, and almost Magnus
When did he fight Perturabo, Fulgrim, and almost fight Magnus?
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
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