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Made in gb
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver




London UK

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Orks underperform. Plain and simple. Pure SM finished higher at LVO. Pure Tau finished higher at LVO. There are multiple mono factions that do better than Orks and I would argue any army able to soup is by definition better in a competitive sense.


The best answer to this question is to simply ignore the Castellan, kill the scoring troops and take objectives. That has always been the Ork game plan and it always will be. Accept that we don’t have adequate tools to deal with the big robot and move on trying to win the game another way.


First point is factually accurate but misses the fact that a lot of players list tailored for handling orks and likewise easily dealt with other horde armies like nids as a bonus. Those same players couldn't as effectively handle Imp soup and ynarri. If you look at other tournaments Orks are showing very strong.

Your second point is exactly right. Don't try and play the castellan at its own game. Tool up for a tac mentality and play the board not the big angry robot
   
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 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Lootas are pretty terrifying.

T4,6+ save. So scary. Plz help.


BA can't get through the grot shields.
   
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 Nithaniel wrote:

First point is factually accurate but misses the fact that a lot of players list tailored for handling orks and likewise easily dealt with other horde armies like nids as a bonus. Those same players couldn't as effectively handle Imp soup and ynarri. If you look at other tournaments Orks are showing very strong.


Its not a fact to claim that "a lot of players list tailored for handling Orks". Quite the opposite. That is an opinion. One I disagree with actually. The meta armies to beat were Ynarri and Imperial Soup and players brought lists to best those. They practiced to best those lists. Orks perform well at smaller tournaments where they are less likely to come across good players who can adequately deal with their tricks either through luck (avoiding Drukhari) or simply because the meta is smaller. At larger events with better players we aren't often seen at the top tables.

 Jancoran wrote:
Skill matters. More. Look at the names. It wasnt some rando

Ignoring the gretchen shield around 25 of them? Come now.

Yea the most skilled player in the world took Orks to 16th. Next best player was 17th. Wow, really shows how strong Orks are. 2 players managed to go with only 1 loss, out of 62. That's less than 4% when we were 8% of the meta.

Yea I'm ignoring the grots because not only are they a massive investment but also at the top level of the game players can and will ignore the Grot shield. Either through counter stratagems or play.

Martel732 wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Lootas are pretty terrifying.

T4,6+ save. So scary. Plz help.


BA can't get through the grot shields.


If only BA had an iconic melee unit that could beat down on the grot shields before consolidating into those squishy lootas, or a flying unit that could jump over the grots in the movement phase to assault the lootas directly. Oh well.
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Yea the most skilled player in the world took Orks to 16th. Next best player was 17th. Wow, really shows how strong Orks are. 2 players managed to go with only 1 loss, out of 62. That's less than 4% when we were 8% of the meta.

Yea I'm ignoring the grots because not only are they a massive investment but also at the top level of the game players can and will ignore the Grot shield. Either through counter stratagems or play.

Martel732 wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Lootas are pretty terrifying.

T4,6+ save. So scary. Plz help.


BA can't get through the grot shields.


If only BA had an iconic melee unit that could beat down on the grot shields before consolidating into those squishy lootas, or a flying unit that could jump over the grots in the movement phase to assault the lootas directly. Oh well.


Eh...Nick was 9th at LVO with orks, ranked #1 in the world and knows his gak. If you want to PRETEND that isn't still awesome, that's fine. It costs me nothing to find that absurd but allow you to think it.

You're underestimating the Orks a great deal. They can just Da' Jump out of combat. Lol. So much for consolodating into them. I personally don't take 25 but would encourage people of sound mind not to oversimplify their master plan for defeating them. It all sounds good on a forum. Sure it does. But skill matters. Luck matters too since its a dice game. You weren't there to know why Nick got beat but I can tell you it's not a mistake he'll make again. He'sa power player and will be all over the new hotness ,whatever it is.

No one said you can't beat Orks. I tabled the last Ork player I faced. That didn't mean they sucked. It means I kicked ass. Theres a vast gulf between those two things. And someone kicked Nicks ass. it happens.


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






 Jancoran wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Yea the most skilled player in the world took Orks to 16th. Next best player was 17th. Wow, really shows how strong Orks are. 2 players managed to go with only 1 loss, out of 62. That's less than 4% when we were 8% of the meta.

Yea I'm ignoring the grots because not only are they a massive investment but also at the top level of the game players can and will ignore the Grot shield. Either through counter stratagems or play.

Martel732 wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Lootas are pretty terrifying.

T4,6+ save. So scary. Plz help.


BA can't get through the grot shields.


If only BA had an iconic melee unit that could beat down on the grot shields before consolidating into those squishy lootas, or a flying unit that could jump over the grots in the movement phase to assault the lootas directly. Oh well.


Eh...Nick was 9th at LVO with orks, ranked #1 in the world and knows his gak. If you want to PRETEND that isn't still awesome, that's fine. It costs me nothing to find that absurd but allow you to think it.

You're underestimating the Orks a great deal. They can just Da' Jump out of combat. Lol. So much for consolodating into them. I personally don't take 25 but would encourage people of sound mind not to oversimplify their master plan for defeating them. It all sounds good on a forum. Sure it does. But skill matters. Luck matters too since its a dice game. You weren't there to know why Nick got beat but I can tell you it's not a mistake he'll make again. He'sa power player and will be all over the new hotness ,whatever it is.

No one said you can't beat Orks. I tabled the last Ork player I faced. That didn't mean they sucked. It means I kicked ass. Theres a vast gulf between those two things. And someone kicked Nicks ass. it happens.

And just like that you've thrown your credibility out of the window and shown you've no idea what you're talking about. Well done.

Let me give you some facts to educate you on why I have my opinion on Orks. Who knows, maybe it'll change your opinion (but since you seem to be so hell bent on making things up to support it, I doubt it);

Nick finished 16th at LVO. He was the top performing Ork player.
The next best Ork player finished 17th (Pampreen).
Nick dropped from 1st in the ITC to 3rd after his LVO result.
They were our only players that went 5-1 at LVO, all other Ork players suffered 2 or more losses.
60 other players also went 5-1 at LVO.
Of the 62 total players that went 5-1 at LVO, EVERY FACTION EXCEPT GREY KNIGHTS were represented as a primary.
A mono SM list, a faction widely considered bottom tier, finished higher than Orks at LVO.
Ork players made up 8% of the total LVO player base.
Ork players made up only 3% of the players who went 5-1 (the top players).
Ork players made up only 5% of the top 100 players (another top player grouping).
The LVO uses a few rules that directly support the Ork list/play style, 'magic box' terrain rules being the most obvious.
The LVO did not use beta bolter rules so marines were firing half as many shots as they do now at anything over half range.
The LVO did not use the GSC codex because it was unreleased. The GSC codex had proven already to be incredibly strong and a meta pick. It also has tools that directly counter Ork plays.
The LVO did not use the newly released assassin rules because they were unreleased. The flexibility of choosing any assassin for 1 CP and the power of the Vindicare or Eversor will force Orks to play in an even less efficient way than we currently do. They also directly counter one of our most key units - the weirdboy.
The Orks win rate is dropping as these meta changing events happen, we currently sit in the bottom half of all factions with a whopping 48% win rate according to 40k stats. That's below everything apart from Necrons (who are directly below us), various flavours of Astartes and Tyranids (though GSC are waaay above us).
Here's a key one - we are unable to soup in a world where soup is king. Our codex is designed with inherent weaknesses that we can't sure up by taking units from another codex.

I hope that helps enlighten you, genuinely. I'm glad you've had some anecdotal success. Or seen Orks doing well anecdotally. Unfortunately all of the facts show otherwise.
   
Made in us
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Olympia, WA

I know Jushua Death and he was 9th, Nick was 16th. It's late.


You spent alot of time here but I still fail to see anything in what you've said that contradicts me. Skill matters. More. And if you did anything, it was prove me right. If orks are as bad as YOU'D have us believe, Nick wouldn't have been 16.

So you wasted your time. His estimation of orks going into LVO carries water with me. Where were you situated this year in the standings? Dunno. I know where I was. I know what I see. I know what Nick saw.

You have to be a little lucky to win the LVO and that's well understood.

Genstealer Cult has a counter for Orks and I was the first to jump up and point it out. Acolytes. I also accept that Genestealer Cults are the new hotness.

And like orks, In few months you'll be telling us all about how bad THEY are.

Everything looks bad compared to Ynnari and Castellan+ IG right now. That too will change. Adapt. Stop bitching.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
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 Jancoran wrote:
I know Jushua Death and he was 9th, Nick was 16th. It's late.


You spent alot of time here but I still fail to see anything in what you've said that contradicts me. Skill matters. More. And if you did anything, it was prove me right. If orks are as bad as YOU'D have us believe, Nick wouldn't have been 16.

So you wasted your time. His estimation of orks going into LVO carries water with me. Where were you situated this year in the standings? Dunno. I know where I was. I know what I see. I know what Nick saw.

You have to be a little lucky to win the LVO and that's well understood.

Genstealer Cult has a counter for Orks and I was the first to jump up and point it out. Acolytes. I also accept that Genestealer Cults are the new hotness.

And like orks, In few months you'll be telling us all about how bad THEY are.

Everything looks bad compared to Ynnari and Castellan+ IG right now. That too will change. Adapt. Stop bitching.

I'm not bitching. I'm showing repeatedly how you keep making completely wrong statements.

Josh Death didn't play Orks (or he didn't finish where he 'told' you he finished). The TOP ORK PLAYER AT LVO FINISHED 16th, NOT 9th. Does that compute? Are you getting this now?

I don't believe you were "the first to jump up and point" anything out actually mate.

Nick is generally considered the best 40k player in the world. I'd expect the best 40k player in the world to be able to take a "top tier" army to at least the top 8, if not higher, of any competition, including the LVO.

I won't be telling you in a few months how bad GSC are because in my opinion they are in it for the long haul. I've no doubt their long term results will reflect the strength of their codex (that I believe is top tier).

There is one thing you've said that is absolutely correct - I've wasted my time. You have no idea what you're talking about and there is no point trying to change your opinion when you keep believing falsehoods. Prove me wrong. Go to a GT and win with Orks. I'll wait.

E - I've looked at your contribution to this thread and so far you just seem to be talking about how amazing Orks are citing things that are totally incorrect (9th finish at LVO for example) while giving dubious tactical advice.

Are you sure you play Orks? You said you take 4 Rokkits in a Boyz squad but every Ork player knows that you can only take 3. Almost every Ork player also agrees that Rokkits in Boyz squads are a complete waste of points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/17 11:03:23


 
   
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^This. So much this.

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Not sure why no one has mentioned the dread mob relic and 2 more shock attack guns. These guys are cheap and can shoot the castellan all game with character protection. It is actually possible for the relic SAG to 1 shot a castellan. However I've seen the math and it has a 20 % chance do do 10-20 wounds to a 3++ castellan. That would be where I start.

Also include at least 2 units getting in his face turn 1. Da jump a 30 man boy and probably storm boys in this case protected by grot sheild. I would compeltely give up on lootas.


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




DC aren't usable at 20 ppm. Try again. Plus its easy for orks to lock out all deepstrike entry points. You should know the latter as an ork player.
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

I'm not bitching. I'm showing repeatedly how you keep making completely wrong statements.

Are you sure you play Orks? You said you take 4 Rokkits in a Boyz squad but every Ork player knows that you can only take 3. Almost every Ork player also agrees that Rokkits in Boyz squads are a complete waste of points.


Removed orks arent bad. You just need to get good. Sorry to say it but I hate excuses. A lot.

Removed - Rule #1 please Combi rokkits make 4. Your lack of imagination is fine. But I placed in the top 2.5% last year in the ITC so you don't GET to tell me how good I am. The ITC already did that.

Orks are good. Adapt. You don't need to win every game to be good and a Codex never won a tournament to date. You should accord skill its due. Its not an accident that the same names keep being in the top 5%. Maybe you think it is. But only one person wins it all...and that doesnt invalidate anyone. It just means luck and skill were with the guy and he'll likely be up there for a long time to come.

Good for him.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/17 20:59:41


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
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Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






 Xenomancers wrote:
Not sure why no one has mentioned the dread mob relic and 2 more shock attack guns. These guys are cheap and can shoot the castellan all game with character protection. It is actually possible for the relic SAG to 1 shot a castellan. However I've seen the math and it has a 20 % chance do do 10-20 wounds to a 3++ castellan. That would be where I start.

Also include at least 2 units getting in his face turn 1. Da jump a 30 man boy and probably storm boys in this case protected by grot sheild. I would compeltely give up on lootas.


The relic SAG deals on average 0.5 damage to a 3++ Castellan (shooting once). I'm not sure where you're getting 20% to do 10-20 wounds from? It deals 0.454 Wounds on average.
It is POSSIBLE for the relic SAG to destroy the Castellan in one turn, but it is less likely than winning the lottery, so I wouldn't bank on it.

No one has mentioned them because Snipers are about to be a thing (and these are some juicy, juicy targets) and ignoring the evolving meta Castellans tend to come with missiles that they like to use to snipe characters with low wounds and a poor save. Though they need a sniper of some description to get rid of the Grot Oiler first.

How are you screening Storm Boys with Grots when they're way faster and presumably flying up field?

I agree that Lootas should be given up on.

Martel732 wrote:
DC aren't usable at 20 ppm. Try again. Plus its easy for orks to lock out all deepstrike entry points. You should know the latter as an ork player.


Hmm I've seen DC used competitively with success. Ah Schrodinger's Orks. You can't simultaneously "lock out all deepstrike entry points" while sending 30-40 bodies up field every turn. You should know this as a competitive player.

 Jancoran wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:

I'm not bitching. I'm showing repeatedly how you keep making completely wrong statements.

Are you sure you play Orks? You said you take 4 Rokkits in a Boyz squad but every Ork player knows that you can only take 3. Almost every Ork player also agrees that Rokkits in Boyz squads are a complete waste of points.


Removed orks arent bad. You just need to get good. Sorry to say it but I hate excuses. A lot.

Removed - Rule #1 please Combi rokkits make 4. Your lack of imagination is fine. But I placed in the top 2.5% last year in the ITC so you don't GET to tell me how good I am. The ITC already did that.

Orks are good. Adapt. You don't need to win every game to be good and a Codex never won a tournament to date. You should accord skill its due. Its not an accident that the same names keep being in the top 5%. Maybe you think it is. But only one person wins it all...and that doesnt invalidate anyone. It just means luck and skill were with the guy and he'll likely be up there for a long time to come.

Good for him.

I don't believe you placed in the top 2.5% of Ork players and I know you have no idea what you're talking about.

"You don't GET to tell me how good I am" but you get to tell me that I'm "dense", I'm "making excuses" I "lack imagination" and that I need to "get good". Makes sense you patronising hypocrite. I also know how good I am and I'm quite comfortable with my ability. It's my ability and knowledge that allows me to have informed opinions. Instead of backtracking with possibly the worst idea for doing damage to Castellan as Orks that I have ever heard of. Rokkits in Boyz squads? Are you joking?

I have also proven that Orks aren't particularly competitive with stats that are widely available but you think your opinion is, for some incredible reason, worth more than that. Typical inane poster.

You can keep your anecdotal rubbish. I think I'll believe facts over your garbage though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/17 20:59:51


 
   
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I never said you have to send 30-40 bodies up field. Just deploy well and BA autolose to Orks. I have no options vs a protected grot wall. None.

I don't know what you think you saw, but any success of DC at their current price point was pure luck or the other guy throwing the game. They're that bad. They're insanely bad.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/17 19:05:44


 
   
Made in de
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I think a Bad Moon Big Mek with souped Up Shokka and the Big Killa Boss warlord trait is a valid option vs. the Castellan.
You have 8D6 shots using both Strategems and are looking at a total of about 14 hits with moar dakka.
With a command reroll you should get S8+ at least once, so you will do 8+ wounds.

Sure that 3++ will safe most of that, but if he has just one knight, you`ll still kill it with the rest of your dakka.
If he has more than 1 just kill the others after he triggers Ion Shields.

I know that the BM with relic is not very reliable due to his variety of shots and strenght, but you have about a 15% chance (reroll str. + shooting twice) to get strength 11+ and deal over a dozen Mortal wounds + regular damage, which will propably oneshot the castellan or cripple it enough so something else can finish it.
I am running 3-4 SAG Meks right know and together they are quite reliable at killing tanks.
   
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 Grotrebel wrote:
I think a Bad Moon Big Mek with souped Up Shokka and the Big Killa Boss warlord trait is a valid option vs. the Castellan.
You have 8D6 shots using both Strategems and are looking at a total of about 14 hits with moar dakka.
With a command reroll you should get S8+ at least once, so you will do 8+ wounds.

Sure that 3++ will safe most of that, but if he has just one knight, you`ll still kill it with the rest of your dakka.
If he has more than 1 just kill the others after he triggers Ion Shields.

I know that the BM with relic is not very reliable due to his variety of shots and strenght, but you have about a 15% chance (reroll str. + shooting twice) to get strength 11+ and deal over a dozen Mortal wounds + regular damage, which will propably oneshot the castellan or cripple it enough so something else can finish it.
I am running 3-4 SAG Meks right know and together they are quite reliable at killing tanks.


Hold up. Where are you getting 8D6 shots? I'm guessing that's a typo? Even if we were to consider firing 3 times (which AFAIK, given the wording, we can't since they both only allow you to fire "a second time" not "again") it would be a max of 6D6 shots in total. Realistically it would only be 4D6 shots, which is very skewey on the number of shots, and especially strength. We basically have to bank on getting S11+ and having at least above average amount of shots with Moar Dakka! to get past the 3+ invuln. via mortal wounds and bad saving rolls on the IK player. Don't get me wrong, I feel like he is one of our few potential answers to the Castellan, but I think we'd have to use it in concert with either tankbustas or mek gunz to actually guarantee killing the thing. If there's anything I've learned about Orks, its to have redundancy.

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Martel732 wrote:
I never said you have to send 30-40 bodies up field. Just deploy well and BA autolose to Orks. I have no options vs a protected grot wall. None.

Odd that you have this opinion. Particularly given that the stats don't back up your rhetoric either. Blood Angels have a 43% win rate against Orks, not amazing but not "auto lose" if the Ork player "deploys well" either.

I don't know what you think you saw, but any success of DC at their current price point was pure luck or the other guy throwing the game. They're that bad. They're insanely bad.

I've seen them perform well in competitive lists, as stated. It may have been luck. But I've seen it more than once, surely it's not luck every time. Your comment on throwing the game is so hyperbolic it kills your credibility.
   
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 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Not sure why no one has mentioned the dread mob relic and 2 more shock attack guns. These guys are cheap and can shoot the castellan all game with character protection. It is actually possible for the relic SAG to 1 shot a castellan. However I've seen the math and it has a 20 % chance do do 10-20 wounds to a 3++ castellan. That would be where I start.

Also include at least 2 units getting in his face turn 1. Da jump a 30 man boy and probably storm boys in this case protected by grot sheild. I would compeltely give up on lootas.


The relic SAG deals on average 0.5 damage to a 3++ Castellan (shooting once). I'm not sure where you're getting 20% to do 10-20 wounds from? It deals 0.454 Wounds on average.
It is POSSIBLE for the relic SAG to destroy the Castellan in one turn, but it is less likely than winning the lottery, so I wouldn't bank on it.

No one has mentioned them because Snipers are about to be a thing (and these are some juicy, juicy targets) and ignoring the evolving meta Castellans tend to come with missiles that they like to use to snipe characters with low wounds and a poor save. Though they need a sniper of some description to get rid of the Grot Oiler first.

How are you screening Storm Boys with Grots when they're way faster and presumably flying up field?

I agree that Lootas should be given up on.

Martel732 wrote:
DC aren't usable at 20 ppm. Try again. Plus its easy for orks to lock out all deepstrike entry points. You should know the latter as an ork player.


Hmm I've seen DC used competitively with success. Ah Schrodinger's Orks. You can't simultaneously "lock out all deepstrike entry points" while sending 30-40 bodies up field every turn. You should know this as a competitive player.

 Jancoran wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:

I'm not bitching. I'm showing repeatedly how you keep making completely wrong statements.

Are you sure you play Orks? You said you take 4 Rokkits in a Boyz squad but every Ork player knows that you can only take 3. Almost every Ork player also agrees that Rokkits in Boyz squads are a complete waste of points.


Removed orks arent bad. You just need to get good. Sorry to say it but I hate excuses. A lot.

Removed - Rule #1 please Combi rokkits make 4. Your lack of imagination is fine. But I placed in the top 2.5% last year in the ITC so you don't GET to tell me how good I am. The ITC already did that.

Orks are good. Adapt. You don't need to win every game to be good and a Codex never won a tournament to date. You should accord skill its due. Its not an accident that the same names keep being in the top 5%. Maybe you think it is. But only one person wins it all...and that doesnt invalidate anyone. It just means luck and skill were with the guy and he'll likely be up there for a long time to come.

Good for him.

I don't believe you placed in the top 2.5% of Ork players and I know you have no idea what you're talking about.

"You don't GET to tell me how good I am" but you get to tell me that I'm "dense", I'm "making excuses" I "lack imagination" and that I need to "get good". Makes sense you patronising hypocrite. I also know how good I am and I'm quite comfortable with my ability. It's my ability and knowledge that allows me to have informed opinions. Instead of backtracking with possibly the worst idea for doing damage to Castellan as Orks that I have ever heard of. Rokkits in Boyz squads? Are you joking?

I have also proven that Orks aren't particularly competitive with stats that are widely available but you think your opinion is, for some incredible reason, worth more than that. Typical inane poster.

You can keep your anecdotal rubbish. I think I'll believe facts over your garbage though.

Looking at the average damage of a SAG is really disengenious. It is hands down the best weapon in the game for killing castellans. Free bootas - more dakka - command rerolls. All these factors compile to make a weapon that can easily deal huge chunks of damage to a castellan. Plus it's shooting all game. Plus if the only thing you are shooting at a castellan is 240 points worth of RNG - he's not even going to waste CP to go to a 3++. If he is - they have already done their job.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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In My Lab

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I never said you have to send 30-40 bodies up field. Just deploy well and BA autolose to Orks. I have no options vs a protected grot wall. None.

Odd that you have this opinion. Particularly given that the stats don't back up your rhetoric either. Blood Angels have a 43% win rate against Orks, not amazing but not "auto lose" if the Ork player "deploys well" either.

I don't know what you think you saw, but any success of DC at their current price point was pure luck or the other guy throwing the game. They're that bad. They're insanely bad.

I've seen them perform well in competitive lists, as stated. It may have been luck. But I've seen it more than once, surely it's not luck every time. Your comment on throwing the game is so hyperbolic it kills your credibility.


Pot, kettle.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






 Xenomancers wrote:
Looking at the average damage of a SAG is really disengenious. It is hands down the best weapon in the game for killing castellans.
Lol. Just lol. Looking at the average damage of a weapon is somehow disingenuous, instead we should use made-up, fairy tale maths where it deals a gak ton of damage once in a hundred million? Get a grip. Remember that there is literally just as much chance of the Ork player rolling snake eyes as there are for them to roll the dreaded double 6. I can't believe what I read on here sometimes, like basic mathematic principles are thrown out when they don't suit an argument then just as quickly scrambled back in to prove a counter point. It's genuinely unreal. Xeno, I have seen your posts and I know what you're about. A further discussion is probably pointless. "It is hands down the best weapon in the game for killing Castellans" is probably one of the most stupid things I have ever read. Better than a Volcano Cannon is it? Better than the Killa Klaw? Better than the Knight Harpoon? Unbelievable, please think before you type.

Free bootas - more dakka - command rerolls. All these factors compile to make a weapon that can easily deal huge chunks of damage to a castellan. Plus it's shooting all game. Plus if the only thing you are shooting at a castellan is 240 points worth of RNG - he's not even going to waste CP to go to a 3++. If he is - they have already done their job.
How is he shooting all game?! The Castellan himself, assuming there's no other units on the table, has the means to kill the SAG Big Mek. I wish the mods would stop people who have no intention in actually discussing the topic posting in these threads. I'm wasting my time with posters who have no idea what they're talking about, have no investment in the discussion and have only posted to state something argumentative. Here follows a perfect example;

 JNAProductions wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I never said you have to send 30-40 bodies up field. Just deploy well and BA autolose to Orks. I have no options vs a protected grot wall. None.

Odd that you have this opinion. Particularly given that the stats don't back up your rhetoric either. Blood Angels have a 43% win rate against Orks, not amazing but not "auto lose" if the Ork player "deploys well" either.

I don't know what you think you saw, but any success of DC at their current price point was pure luck or the other guy throwing the game. They're that bad. They're insanely bad.

I've seen them perform well in competitive lists, as stated. It may have been luck. But I've seen it more than once, surely it's not luck every time. Your comment on throwing the game is so hyperbolic it kills your credibility.


Pot, kettle.


Great contribution, as always.
   
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In My Lab

You're very much of the mindset that "Orks suck!" and nothing anyone else says is capable of changing your mind, no matter how backed-up it is.

It's really rather rich of you to be annoyed at someone else using hyperbole.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in au
Huge Hierodule





A look, another thread where someone was casually asking for help with Orkz, ruined by the very same poster who ruined the rest of them. Why am I completely unsurprised.

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in au
Grovelin' Grot



Thirroul

Personally I don't think Orks suck, but a few other factions do have an unfair advantage allowed for the sake of fluff. Take away soup and the play field becomes a lot more level. Can we win? Sure. Will it be an uphill struggle? Yup, but less of than in previous editions.

Additionally most of the LVO statistics take a lot of factors out of the equations do they not? Bad list matchups, terrain differences and misson combinations can do quite a bit to make even the best lists struggle. While LVO can be a good indicator it's not absolute and it's possibly a bad idea to try and force it to be as such to others.

Perhaps we should talk about different methods to overcome the issue with movement, army composition and tactics; rather than simply saying "NO" and leaving it at that?
   
Made in au
Huge Hierodule





cody.d. wrote:
Personally I don't think Orks suck, but a few other factions do have an unfair advantage allowed for the sake of fluff. Take away soup and the play field becomes a lot more level. Can we win? Sure. Will it be an uphill struggle? Yup, but less of than in previous editions.

Additionally most of the LVO statistics take a lot of factors out of the equations do they not? Bad list matchups, terrain differences and misson combinations can do quite a bit to make even the best lists struggle. While LVO can be a good indicator it's not absolute and it's possibly a bad idea to try and force it to be as such to others.

Perhaps we should talk about different methods to overcome the issue with movement, army composition and tactics; rather than simply saying "NO" and leaving it at that?

Thank you. Some people are so adamant that their own failings are to be blamed on their dex, that try to shut down any discussion that might take away from this. Throwing your hands up and saying "it can't be done" is a very low-level mentality. There's still the right way to do something.

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I said they were autolose vs grot wall loota blobs that blocked off deep strike. Not every conceivable ork list.

The facf that you are defending dc as some solution to this ork list doesnt do much for your credibility.
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






 JNAProductions wrote:
You're very much of the mindset that "Orks suck!" and nothing anyone else says is capable of changing your mind, no matter how backed-up it is.

It's really rather rich of you to be annoyed at someone else using hyperbole.

Read my posts above.

I've given plenty of EVIDENCE that backs up my belief. I've seen no evidence from literally anyone else. The only poster that attempted to provide evidence just made things up that I know are false.

And 'Orks suck' is far too simple a premise compared to what I actually believe. Please don't assume to have any idea what I think. I can assure you have no idea.

You seem to play Necrons. Do you think they are in a good spot?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 SHUPPET wrote:
cody.d. wrote:
Personally I don't think Orks suck, but a few other factions do have an unfair advantage allowed for the sake of fluff. Take away soup and the play field becomes a lot more level. Can we win? Sure. Will it be an uphill struggle? Yup, but less of than in previous editions.

Additionally most of the LVO statistics take a lot of factors out of the equations do they not? Bad list matchups, terrain differences and misson combinations can do quite a bit to make even the best lists struggle. While LVO can be a good indicator it's not absolute and it's possibly a bad idea to try and force it to be as such to others.

Perhaps we should talk about different methods to overcome the issue with movement, army composition and tactics; rather than simply saying "NO" and leaving it at that?

Thank you. Some people are so adamant that their own failings are to be blamed on their dex, that try to shut down any discussion that might take away from this. Throwing your hands up and saying "it can't be done" is a very low-level mentality. There's still the right way to do something.

Nice personal attack there SHUPPET. Nice to see the Kelermorph is an auto include and broken as we all thought weeks ago. You gone and admitted such yet?

I've already provided the 'correct' way to beat a Castellan list as Orks. If you had bothered to read all of my posts, rather than eagerly jumping into a thread you have can give no contribution in to launch your pathetic personal attacks, you'd know this.

But we all know that isn't your style.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/18 06:58:24


 
   
Made in au
Huge Hierodule





Lol @ labelling what I said a "personal attack", and then subsequently making a post entirely aimed at attacking me personally. My post was a pretty generalized statement about self-destructive attitudes and not even directed at you, but whatever, you clearly identified in some manner with the description, so who am I to tell you that's wrong.


 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Nice personal attack there SHUPPET. Nice to see the Kelermorph is an auto include and broken as we all thought weeks ago. You gone and admitted such yet?

Really? Where's the stats on that? I'm not seeing GSC dominate the meta? Lol. I've been busy and haven't been keeping up this weekend, but I know that as of last week the dex only had two notable placings,

1) Karl Abrahamsson won Games of Westeros VI (A 73 player major in Sweden). His list was mono-gsc with a wide variety of models and took 1 copy of every single character in the dex other than the Sanctus (and 2 copies of the Patriarch).

And 2) Dustin Hershaw took 2nd at the 7th Annual Barrie Bash (A 62 player major) who didn't even take a Kelermorph.

That doesn't really seem like the results of a crazy OP unit that's been out for 2 months, so do you have the same stats to support your claims that you demand of everyone else?




On top of that my stance was never ever "there is absolutely no way Kelermorph is broken", my opinion was that it's pretty scrubby to whine for nerfs before a unit has even hit the table. When someone does this, even if they turn out to be right, they didn't actually know for sure before playtesting, and that's something that I appear to have been proved correct on lol. But even if the Kelermorph turns out to be an utter monster in the next year or so (doubt), it's no skin off my back, this is something I also acknowledged as a possibility lol, because my statements went both ways - that it was too early for me to know for sure as well. What are you even angling for here haha?





Not that any of this has anything to do with this thread, you are just lashing out at everyone, as per usual. You are incapable of interacting with people in a productive manner.


This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2019/03/18 08:24:40


P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in us
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy





Let's try to be civil in here, guys and gals. Don't wanna see the Mods shut down the thread and pass out warnings.

I'm gonna agree with some of the sentiments in here: Orkz really only have two options when facing Knights. 1) ignore them, take out the units that can gain VP, and hope to have more than your opponent before they table you or 2) get some MANz or another heavy-hitting CC unit into their face. Our shooting just isn't optimal enough to handle the Super Heavies.
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Martel732 wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Lootas are pretty terrifying.

T4,6+ save. So scary. Plz help.


BA can't get through the grot shields.


Last time I faced BA death company fired 20 bolters at the grots causing enough casualties to open up that by the very minimum he could pile into lootas and had he at all made decent charge roll(rather than 3") he would have reached. Particularly good vs the popular 10 strong gretching blocks that suck vs h2h assaulters.

Oh and that T1 before I could even blink.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Looking at the average damage of a SAG is really disengenious. It is hands down the best weapon in the game for killing castellans. Free bootas - more dakka - command rerolls. All these factors compile to make a weapon that can easily deal huge chunks of damage to a castellan. Plus it's shooting all game. Plus if the only thing you are shooting at a castellan is 240 points worth of RNG - he's not even going to waste CP to go to a 3++. If he is - they have already done their job.


Right. I have killed one warglaive with it. Once would have got baneblade(but not knight). Rest of the time I'm happy if I get to blow rhino.

You seem to have GW mentality. "oooo I can roll all 6's! Bubblechukka is awesome with it's 6 S6 -6 D6 shots! Make it pricey".

Then forget that happens what 0.07% times?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/18 12:05:20


“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
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Jancoran wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
The biggest issue I find with the ork codex is not that we can't accomlish things, it is just that we have to somehow accomplish a lot of things with inferior tools. You can make a list that will do well against the AM/Castellen, but good luck vs those Ynarri lists. Funny enough I think GW could sell a bunch of models and fix orks, tau and Necrons weaknesses by just adding keyword Xenos and allowing them all to ally together.


I mean every army has a defining way of doing things. I see no reason orks should be an exception. And I play orks.

I like Orks and they now have the tools. Thats a difference between 8E and previous ork editions where you had the tools against...most things. But hard counters existed. they just dont anymore. You can hit an enemy 80 times in one round with STr 7 -1 AP weapons now, in a single round. So. I'm not really seeing how we are lacking anything.

We are more prone to bad luck. You gotta' plan for that. Missed charges absolutely are bad for us. But we have 'Ere we Go. Can't ask for much more. Dont even need a character to do it. We move 5" but we can advance and charge which is a big deal. Makes us FAST without needing to pay for vehicles. We relied on vehicles befor to an extent. We can now ds to locations or outflank to locations etc... So mobility is no longer the killer it was for us.

Castellans are broken. Comparing yourself to soemthing that never should have been in 40K is not the right approach. EVERYONE hates it who faces it. But if 80 shots at -1 AP STR 7 isn't enough "tools", then by that definition, no one has them. Lol.

Ynnari are as broken as the Castellan and have been since they arrived in 7E. Its that simple. Auto-hitting weapons and/or the 5's and 6's stratagem both are tools to handle them as are artillery barrrages for when they kill a unit and zoom away like cowards! Wont be a fun game, but thats not because you're orks. Its because they are Ynnarri and by definition no fun to play against.

Orks are really good. They didn't perform poorly at LVO. Not winning a 660 person tournament is NOT an indicator that everyone who didn't win "sucks". We just have two boogeymen in our world right now. Fix them and you will see orks are as good as anyone.


Oh make no mistake this is the best ork codex since 4th. I am very happy with it overall.

I also did not mention the LVO, just the 2 lists you have to currently be able to face and our problem with wiring a list with just ork tools that can reliably handle both. One thing I will point out though is lootas are not always going to get max number of shots and dakka dakka on a 5+ with grot shields unless you are throwing all your command points at them. I is an answer sure but for ~1/4 of your points at 2k and most smart opponents are going to wipe them out by the end of turn 2-3. They just target the lootas to waste command points, then wipe out all of the gretchin with small arms turn 1 then chip away lootas by turn 2 (at least this has been my experience even with a 40 gretchin shield)


BaconCatBug wrote:If you want to ally Orks, Tau and Necrons, play narrative play. That's LITERALLY what it was made to do.

Matched Play is a botched attempt at reintroducing some semblance of factional structure to the game.


yes and no, the problem with the "just play narrative" is you have to find somebody willing to play a narrative game. instead you can sometimes get a agreement to a CP battle but they still want matched play rules in my experience. so in theory I "can" play my orks with my Tau... but in practice I would be playing against myself.

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