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 An Actual Englishman wrote:


I don't believe you placed in the top 2.5% of Ork players and I know you have no idea what you're talking about.

Not as orks. The entire ITC. I know of what I speak.

No one here cares whether you believe it or not. The truth does not require your approval, as its literally a matter of record. In 2016 I was 148th of 7K in the ITC. This year around 230 of 10K.

You can debate with me how good my individual army is if you like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I never said you have to send 30-40 bodies up field. Just deploy well and BA autolose to Orks. I have no options vs a protected grot wall. None.

I don't know what you think you saw, but any success of DC at their current price point was pure luck or the other guy throwing the game. They're that bad. They're insanely bad.

Blood Angels are in a little bit of a pickle. they want to charge in...but orks eat them if they do. They could shoot them but then they are not playing to Blood Angel strengths...but that doesn't mean its not a valid answer though. I think we talked about Blood Angels before and the suggestion I gave then was that you needed slightly less overcommitment to the melee side of BA. Saw a guy take 14 Death Company in ONE unit the other day. predictably it smashed the unit it was charging WITH EASE and was removed subsequently from the table WITH EASE. Screeners just make that iffy. Overkill is kind of a bad thing for Blood Angles. Getting those units balanced is a tightrope act too. even the Smash Captains can be iffy if it's facing T'au so there's that wrinkle. or certain Necron builds, like mine. I vaporized a Captain who pretty much had to charge my Monolith. Same thing happened when a Captain got in my backfield turn 1 using shenanigans and then charged the Pathfinders to silence a chunk of my markerlights. Poof. So yeah. it's tough. But Blood Angels have some good stuff to build on. Just not great against Orks, I agree.

 Jancoran wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


I don't believe you placed in the top 2.5% of Ork players and I know you have no idea what you're talking about.

Not as orks. The entire ITC. I know of what I speak.

No one here cares whether you believe it or not. The truth does not require your approval, as its literally a matter of record. In 2016 I was 148th of 7K in the ITC. This year around 230 of 10K.

You can debate with me how good my individual army is if you like.

I'm not interesting in debating with you because you have no idea what you're talking about.

Perhaps you're decent as Tau, which it seems you play given your dakka leanings, but that doesn't mean you know anything about Orks. And I can see that you don't know anything about Orks from your comments in this thread.

Do you have any idea how much points the Kombi Rokkit + 3 x RL per Boyz squad, 6 Traktor Kannons and 15 Lootas cost? That's what you use according to your first post in this thread. How are you getting that it does "a little over 16 wounds average" to a Castellan? Let me explain why I take your input into this conversation with a chunk of salt the size of my fist;

The points cost, assuming 3 squads of 30 Boyz with your set up is as follows;
1299 pts
That's quite a lot more than a Castellan.

The number of wounds on average that your set up puts out, isn't 16 (go figure), it's;
11 Damage

That's assuming the Castellan doesn't use RIS by the way. It get's worse if they rotate.

The wounds you expect to do with your set up to a Castellan is yet another incorrect thing you've claimed in this thread. In fact even with Bad Moonz Lootas, always rolling max shots you still only do 14 Damage to the Castellan.

Where have you got this tactic from? Have you actually used it against the AM/Castellan set up in a competitive match?

Martel732 wrote:
I said they were autolose vs grot wall loota blobs that blocked off deep strike. Not every conceivable ork list.

The facf that you are defending dc as some solution to this ork list doesnt do much for your credibility.

If BA have access to space marine bikers I'd probably start spamming them against orks. T5 will give you reasonable protection vs their melle and you are putting out tons of shots.

Also don't make the mistake of shooting the grots - shoot the lootas - I really have no problem clearing these guys out with just astartes bolters.

 Jancoran wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


I don't believe you placed in the top 2.5% of Ork players and I know you have no idea what you're talking about.

Not as orks. The entire ITC. I know of what I speak.

No one here cares whether you believe it or not. The truth does not require your approval, as its literally a matter of record. In 2016 I was 148th of 7K in the ITC. This year around 230 of 10K.

You can debate with me how good my individual army is if you like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I never said you have to send 30-40 bodies up field. Just deploy well and BA autolose to Orks. I have no options vs a protected grot wall. None.

I don't know what you think you saw, but any success of DC at their current price point was pure luck or the other guy throwing the game. They're that bad. They're insanely bad.

Blood Angels are in a little bit of a pickle. they want to charge in...but orks eat them if they do. They could shoot them but then they are not playing to Blood Angel strengths...but that doesn't mean its not a valid answer though. I think we talked about Blood Angels before and the suggestion I gave then was that you needed slightly less overcommitment to the melee side of BA. Saw a guy take 14 Death Company in ONE unit the other day. predictably it smashed the unit it was charging WITH EASE and was removed subsequently from the table WITH EASE. Screeners just make that iffy. Overkill is kind of a bad thing for Blood Angles. Getting those units balanced is a tightrope act too. even the Smash Captains can be iffy if it's facing T'au so there's that wrinkle. or certain Necron builds, like mine. I vaporized a Captain who pretty much had to charge my Monolith. Same thing happened when a Captain got in my backfield turn 1 using shenanigans and then charged the Pathfinders to silence a chunk of my markerlights. Poof. So yeah. it's tough. But Blood Angels have some good stuff to build on. Just not great against Orks, I agree.

That basically summarizes my analysis. I've really come to the conclusion that the ba chapter tactic just doesn't work given how marines are costed.

I played versus an ork horde. He used the relic shock attack gun, and loota bomb. He also didn't have any viable targets for my castellan since he ran a massive horde of all infantry. Cawls wrath and a volcano lance don't do a lot, except obliterate a single gretchin lol.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

One thing I will point out though is lootas are not always going to get max number of shots and dakka dakka on a 5+ with grot shields unless you are throwing all your command points at them. I is an answer sure but for ~1/4 of your points at 2k and most smart opponents are going to wipe them out by the end of turn 2-3. They just target the lootas to waste command points, then wipe out all of the gretchin with small arms turn 1 then chip away lootas by turn 2 (at least this has been my experience even with a 40 gretchin shield)

They will not always max it out, you are correct. Yes its totally worth throwing CP's at the problem.

As for your solution, you are listing the order you have to do it in, but there's one factor that makes the plan somewhat suspect: Range. people forget that 48" range means the enemy is almost certainly having to move up with a goodly amount of stuff to even get a shot. That means they will not have very many shots to TRY to kill the Lootas until turn 2 and potentially won't kill much at all turn one. And if it takes you that long to REALLY START in on them, that means you're walking into the buzzsaw which doesn't hurt the lootaz nor surging Boyz, but it does hurt the opponent!

That's why going second serves the orks so well. Controlling objectives is essentially never the problem for orks when going second. Killing more is a function of carefully parcelling out your pain and cutting down enemies who are trying to take the objectives. Controlling more is easy. Killing more becomes unnecessary to do.

I know its odd but I've seen game after game where going second is a good thing for Orks. They let the enemy take the potshots they are taking round one, snuggled safely somewhere as many inches as they can possibly be backwards, wrapped by Gretchen doing the same. The Screens then come out and start putting up stop signs for the enemy force so that charges really aren't going to happen and ranges are forced outward (for example, if a bolter heavy force bounces to midfield so they can stand stalk still the rest of the game and maximize their bolter fire without eing in as much danger you would want that firing line to have to move twice not once). I find the orks fascinating because they don't even have to compete very hard for 3 points per round on Primaries, the fourth being a maybe (but a probably earlier on). Secondaries are where its at when fighting against orks. Also it's where orks need to focus on shining but that's not so hard. You now have Engineers, Big Game Hunter is easy a lot of the time, and Butchers Bill is also very doable 4 of 6 turns.So i think from a scoring perspective it's just easy being Orks, no matter how many Reaper points you give up.

Consider also that the enemy getting a lot of points and losing is good for YOU the ork player. You want your Strength of schedule to be high and that's determined by how well your opponent did. So in the grand scheme, if you're wining big, you can let up and allow the opponent to score more if it came to it.

And you only have to beat them by one point.

i dunno. Orks have been a lot of fun to play in 8E.

i dunno. Orks have been a lot of fun to play in 8E.

Agreed, having played Orks since 4th this is the best shape and most fun to play they've been in 4 editions of 40K.

For once in our life we have tools to deal with most issues that can be brought to us. We have a decent variety of tactics we can employ, movement shenanigans and perhaps the most powerful beatstick outside of lords of war.

 Jancoran wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

One thing I will point out though is lootas are not always going to get max number of shots and dakka dakka on a 5+ with grot shields unless you are throwing all your command points at them. I is an answer sure but for ~1/4 of your points at 2k and most smart opponents are going to wipe them out by the end of turn 2-3. They just target the lootas to waste command points, then wipe out all of the gretchin with small arms turn 1 then chip away lootas by turn 2 (at least this has been my experience even with a 40 gretchin shield)

They will not always max it out, you are correct. Yes its totally worth throwing CP's at the problem.

As for your solution, you are listing the order you have to do it in, but there's one factor that makes the plan somewhat suspect: Range. people forget that 48" range means the enemy is almost certainly having to move up with a goodly amount of stuff to even get a shot. That means they will not have very many shots to TRY to kill the Lootas until turn 2 and potentially won't kill much at all turn one. And if it takes you that long to REALLY START in on them, that means you're walking into the buzzsaw which doesn't hurt the lootaz nor surging Boyz, but it does hurt the opponent!

That's why going second serves the orks so well. Controlling objectives is essentially never the problem for orks when going second. Killing more is a function of carefully parcelling out your pain and cutting down enemies who are trying to take the objectives. Controlling more is easy. Killing more becomes unnecessary to do.

I know its odd but I've seen game after game where going second is a good thing for Orks. They let the enemy take the potshots they are taking round one, snuggled safely somewhere as many inches as they can possibly be backwards, wrapped by Gretchen doing the same. The Screens then come out and start putting up stop signs for the enemy force so that charges really aren't going to happen and ranges are forced outward (for example, if a bolter heavy force bounces to midfield so they can stand stalk still the rest of the game and maximize their bolter fire without eing in as much danger you would want that firing line to have to move twice not once). I find the orks fascinating because they don't even have to compete very hard for 3 points per round on Primaries, the fourth being a maybe (but a probably earlier on). Secondaries are where its at when fighting against orks. Also it's where orks need to focus on shining but that's not so hard. You now have Engineers, Big Game Hunter is easy a lot of the time, and Butchers Bill is also very doable 4 of 6 turns.So i think from a scoring perspective it's just easy being Orks, no matter how many Reaper points you give up.

Consider also that the enemy getting a lot of points and losing is good for YOU the ork player. You want your Strength of schedule to be high and that's determined by how well your opponent did. So in the grand scheme, if you're wining big, you can let up and allow the opponent to score more if it came to it.

And you only have to beat them by one point.

i dunno. Orks have been a lot of fun to play in 8E.

on range it depends on your meta. I and my groups hate planet bowling ball. often there will be lots of LOS breakign terrain so any shot over 36 inches is going to be nearly impossible for somthing other than a knight who can see over things.

otherwise while 48 range is nice if you can line up shots you still need grot shields in front to use them as intended. I am not saying lootas are bad (quite the opposite, they usually make back their points before being blown off the table turn 2-3 in my experience) I am more saying that against the current top tier lists (ynarri and guard w/ knights) they struggle.

Totally on the same page fun wise, we have a great codex that can keep up with any non souped faction and I am enjoying it a lot. My argument on competative scenes though is that Orks need a modest boost to be able to get to the top and that if they got the ability to ally to fix the few weaknesses they have things would be greatly improved. IE keyword Xenos so you cna throw down tau broadsides or firewarriors clearing screens before goign in, or necron immortals throwing out decent screen wiping and orks fighting beside wraiths mixing durability with our orky fodder so they have to choose wipe out a bunch of boys or try and take out those immortals to the last one so they stop comign back.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Spoiler:

 Jancoran wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

One thing I will point out though is lootas are not always going to get max number of shots and dakka dakka on a 5+ with grot shields unless you are throwing all your command points at them. I is an answer sure but for ~1/4 of your points at 2k and most smart opponents are going to wipe them out by the end of turn 2-3. They just target the lootas to waste command points, then wipe out all of the gretchin with small arms turn 1 then chip away lootas by turn 2 (at least this has been my experience even with a 40 gretchin shield)

They will not always max it out, you are correct. Yes its totally worth throwing CP's at the problem.

As for your solution, you are listing the order you have to do it in, but there's one factor that makes the plan somewhat suspect: Range. people forget that 48" range means the enemy is almost certainly having to move up with a goodly amount of stuff to even get a shot. That means they will not have very many shots to TRY to kill the Lootas until turn 2 and potentially won't kill much at all turn one. And if it takes you that long to REALLY START in on them, that means you're walking into the buzzsaw which doesn't hurt the lootaz nor surging Boyz, but it does hurt the opponent!

That's why going second serves the orks so well. Controlling objectives is essentially never the problem for orks when going second. Killing more is a function of carefully parcelling out your pain and cutting down enemies who are trying to take the objectives. Controlling more is easy. Killing more becomes unnecessary to do.

I know its odd but I've seen game after game where going second is a good thing for Orks. They let the enemy take the potshots they are taking round one, snuggled safely somewhere as many inches as they can possibly be backwards, wrapped by Gretchen doing the same. The Screens then come out and start putting up stop signs for the enemy force so that charges really aren't going to happen and ranges are forced outward (for example, if a bolter heavy force bounces to midfield so they can stand stalk still the rest of the game and maximize their bolter fire without eing in as much danger you would want that firing line to have to move twice not once). I find the orks fascinating because they don't even have to compete very hard for 3 points per round on Primaries, the fourth being a maybe (but a probably earlier on). Secondaries are where its at when fighting against orks. Also it's where orks need to focus on shining but that's not so hard. You now have Engineers, Big Game Hunter is easy a lot of the time, and Butchers Bill is also very doable 4 of 6 turns.So i think from a scoring perspective it's just easy being Orks, no matter how many Reaper points you give up.

Consider also that the enemy getting a lot of points and losing is good for YOU the ork player. You want your Strength of schedule to be high and that's determined by how well your opponent did. So in the grand scheme, if you're wining big, you can let up and allow the opponent to score more if it came to it.

And you only have to beat them by one point.

i dunno. Orks have been a lot of fun to play in 8E.

on range it depends on your meta. I and my groups hate planet bowling ball. often there will be lots of LOS breakign terrain so any shot over 36 inches is going to be nearly impossible for somthing other than a knight who can see over things.

otherwise while 48 range is nice if you can line up shots you still need grot shields in front to use them as intended. I am not saying lootas are bad (quite the opposite, they usually make back their points before being blown off the table turn 2-3 in my experience) I am more saying that against the current top tier lists (ynarri and guard w/ knights) they struggle.

Totally on the same page fun wise, we have a great codex that can keep up with any non souped faction and I am enjoying it a lot. My argument on competative scenes though is that Orks need a modest boost to be able to get to the top and that if they got the ability to ally to fix the few weaknesses they have things would be greatly improved. IE keyword Xenos so you cna throw down tau broadsides or firewarriors clearing screens before goign in, or necron immortals throwing out decent screen wiping and orks fighting beside wraiths mixing durability with our orky fodder so they have to choose wipe out a bunch of boys or try and take out those immortals to the last one so they stop comign back.

I cannot speak to individual terrain density on a forum. But i play ITC primarily and obviously there will always be decent terrain in the ITC with an los blocker in the middle. I havent seen it be a problem seeing the Castellan. Lol. Not ever. And that is the thread subject.

In general, terrain is not a deterrent or exceptionally limiting factor. There is also elevations to consider?

The solution to screens is patience. Just wait til round two if you have to and buzzsaw a bunch of their screens etc... its not as if the pistols and other tools as well as your advancing orks cant ger some work done. Screens dont tend to be hearty. Here again, going second and playing farther back seems like it works in the orks favor.

Screens are hearty. Guardsmen are the most durable unit in the game per point. I can shoot all game and not clear them.

Martel732 wrote:
Screens are hearty. Guardsmen are the most durable unit in the game per point. I can shoot all game and not clear them.

That is blood angel sour grapes speaking. However it takes just two shooting phases to end the Castellan, at worst, for orks (again, the faction we are talking about). And the orks will handle the ig just fine.

"Shooting the castellan" is a different supposition from "screens aren't hearty". They are. If I could shoot the castellan, I wouldn't care about the screens to be begin with, either. Even da jump suffers a lot after a single turn of move^3, though. So Orks better be able to shoot it. There isn't much that survives 45 lootas shooting twice, so I really don't understand what the other Ork players are talking about.

And after 6th and 7th, I think BA are entitled to some sour grapes. A vineyard, perhaps.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

I don't believe you placed in the top 2.5% of Ork players and I know you have no idea what you're talking about.
[...]
I'm not interesting in debating with you because you have no idea what you're talking about.
[...]
And I can see that you don't know anything about Orks from your comments in this thread.

With this attitude, one might think you able to support your own statements with the same evidence you demand of everyone else.

Of course, that's not your style.


Jancoran is a very experience Ork player. He does place highly in the ITC. We are all more than aware that its a lot more than you've ever done. What exactly are your qualifications to completely dismiss him again, other than being the poster-boy for downplaying Orkz again?

You were wrong about GSC as you displayed in this thread, and your defeatist attitude makes me inclined to believe you're largely wrong about Orkz as well, as it doesn't leave room for critical analysis, and players of much higher skill than yourself are in direct disagreement. At the very least, this, and your track, should be cause for you to consider that maybe your beliefs are not as ironclad as they might be, and try to hold productive discourse without completely dismissing the validity of anything someone else may have to say.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

I don't believe you placed in the top 2.5% of Ork players and I know you have no idea what you're talking about.
[...]
I'm not interesting in debating with you because you have no idea what you're talking about.
[...]
And I can see that you don't know anything about Orks from your comments in this thread.

With this attitude, one might think you able to support your own statements with the same evidence you demand of everyone else.

Of course, that's not your style.


Jancoran is a very experience Ork player. He does place highly in the ITC. We are all more than aware that its a lot more than you've ever done. What exactly are your qualifications to completely dismiss him again, other than being the poster-boy for downplaying Orkz again?

You were wrong about GSC, and your defeatist attitude sees you wrong about Orkz 9 times out of 10 as well, as it doesn't leave room for critical analysis.

.

In fairness I am known more as Sisters of Battle and T'au Empire player, but I play a ton o armies and all im doing is trying to offer the guy some perspective. Even if I WASN'T "up there", I don't think you need to be top 250 to have an opinion. But when it IS someone top 250, I don't know why this Englishman feels like he can diminish me. :( i even got a two day ban for taking his bait and responding strongly. Oh well. I should know better than to get bait'd I guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Spoiler:

 Jancoran wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


I don't believe you placed in the top 2.5% of Ork players and I know you have no idea what you're talking about.

Not as orks. The entire ITC. I know of what I speak.

No one here cares whether you believe it or not. The truth does not require your approval, as its literally a matter of record. In 2016 I was 148th of 7K in the ITC. This year around 230 of 10K.

You can debate with me how good my individual army is if you like.

I'm not interesting in debating with you because you have no idea what you're talking about.

Perhaps you're decent as Tau, which it seems you play given your dakka leanings, but that doesn't mean you know anything about Orks. And I can see that you don't know anything about Orks from your comments in this thread.

Do you have any idea how much points the Kombi Rokkit + 3 x RL per Boyz squad, 6 Traktor Kannons and 15 Lootas cost? That's what you use according to your first post in this thread. How are you getting that it does "a little over 16 wounds average" to a Castellan? Let me explain why I take your input into this conversation with a chunk of salt the size of my fist;

The points cost, assuming 3 squads of 30 Boyz with your set up is as follows;
1299 pts
That's quite a lot more than a Castellan.

The number of wounds on average that your set up puts out, isn't 16 (go figure), it's;
11 Damage

That's assuming the Castellan doesn't use RIS by the way. It get's worse if they rotate.

The wounds you expect to do with your set up to a Castellan is yet another incorrect thing you've claimed in this thread. In fact even with Bad Moonz Lootas, always rolling max shots you still only do 14 Damage to the Castellan.

Have you actually used it against the AM/Castellan set up in a competitive match?

Yes