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Made in us
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 Henry wrote:
What's interesting in all this is how differently people get value out of the same film. I very much like Iron Man 3 for the tone (which overcomes the awful use of suits), while others can't stand it at all. Black Panther is overblown humdrum, yet some people thought it was worthy of the Oscar for best film (which just goes to show that some people's opinions can be objectively wrong). The original Captain America is derided for its generic and boring plotline and pacing, but I love it for its wonderful sincerity and heart.

The one I find the strangest is Guardians 2. So many have it in their top 5 (or 10) and complement it's warmth and themes. I find it a wretched film, far worse than anything else in the MCU, with no redeeming qualities - the polar opposite of Guardians 1.

I get the themes, but warmth? The characters seem like they can barely stand to be in the same room for most of the film, and love is cancer, abandonment and mass murder. I'd be seriously confused if someone tried to argue that.

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Southeastern PA, USA

I'm shocked by so many rating Civil War so highly. There were fun elements to it. But the villain's plan was full of holes you could drive a battleship through (i.e. not nitpicky stuff but stuff that had me scratching my head IN the theater). Meanwhile, the conflict felt too light with no stakes at times (airport battle) and overdramatized and forced at others (Stark turning murderous). CW shares so many problems with BvS...it's just in a nicer wrapper.

Winter Soldier is still the best MCU film, IMO. That's my 1-5. Winter Soldier x 5. Iron Man 1 probably deserves to be in there, because it was the proof-of-concept, set the template, and brought in RDJ.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/15 15:03:37


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I think the big success of Civil War is pitting characters at odds with one another whose relationships we've grown attached to. There's a lot of great delivery in the film that make bits like Tony's heartbreak at the end work even the idea of him murdering Bucky isn't a realistic scenario. It succeeds for largely the same reasons we usually care about the BvS fight, where the titular film failed. The mutual respect between the two is what makes that particular fight noteworthy, and removing that connection makes it just a fight with no real weight behind it.
   
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I agree with a lot of what Henry and Gorgon say. Except about IM3. While I don't think it deserves the hate it gets (nor does IM2), it's not among Marvel's best by a longshot.

I'd say my top 5 are something like (in no particular order)j

Iron Man
Captain America: the First Avenger & Winter Soldier (counting them as one)
GotG 1
Avengers 1
Infinity War
   
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Soooo watched Ant man and the wasp, or should i say, the wasp, as she totally stole the movie, really liked it, much much better than the first ant man and I think it may just sneak into my top ten marvel films, for anyone else on the fence go give it a watch

   
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Bran Dawri wrote:
I agree with a lot of what Henry and Gorgon say. Except about IM3. While I don't think it deserves the hate it gets (nor does IM2), it's not among Marvel's best by a longshot.


I need to rewatch IM3 one of these days. I really like the twist (no way were they going comic accurate on that one...) and since that's the only thing that people hate on, I kind of assume I like the movie? I'm not sure the rest of it quite holds up.
   
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Basically just thinking which DVDs I'd reach for if I was in Marvel Movie mood....

Guardians of the Galaxy
Iron Man
Antman
Avengers
Thor

All issue #1's. I though Avengers was great, with MR nailing it as Banner, the action scenes and the separate players learning to come together. I even liked the Black Widow 'reverse interrogation' at the start.

Antman and the Wasp I found a complete pile of poo. Apart from the action scenes and Louis's patter it had nothing going for it.
   
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 LunarSol wrote:
I think the big success of Civil War is pitting characters at odds with one another whose relationships we've grown attached to. There's a lot of great delivery in the film that make bits like Tony's heartbreak at the end work even the idea of him murdering Bucky isn't a realistic scenario. It succeeds for largely the same reasons we usually care about the BvS fight, where the titular film failed. The mutual respect between the two is what makes that particular fight noteworthy, and removing that connection makes it just a fight with no real weight behind it.


The CW fight may have had more emotional heft since they were friends of sorts, but it didn't seem in character for Stark or really make sense. The killer line (in a bad way) for me was "I don't care, he killed my mom."

It's like an acknowledgement from the writers that we're supposed to handwave away the logic of what follows. Bucky was a living robot programmed to do it BY OTHER PEOPLE, and Stark knows it. Stark also hasn't shown himself to be murderous even when the lives of his loved ones are threatened. And that should matter A LOT, given the nature of what Marvel has built.

But instead, "I don't care...IT'S MURDERTIME!" It's certainly emotional because we care about the characters...but it doesn't sit right IMO. BvS had it the other way around, which was problematic also.


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Stark 100% is murderous. His first suit of armor lit a bunch of people on fire, shot a rocket at people, punched through a person into a metal door that bent out of shape, and smashed people through rocks.

His first not made of scrap IM suit shot a thing into a tank maned by people and blew it up killing the people inside and shot all those little things off his shoulders hitting a bunch of people in the head killing them.

Tony is 100% both a killer AND vengeful. Its been in his character since appearance 1.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

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I really appreciate that he specifies his mom and doesn't mention his father, fwiw.
   
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Well, yeah. He hated his dad. But he loved his mom and couldn't get over the last interaction being fairly crappy. He shows us a sequence and says he wishes that was how it turned out; he was fairly rude even to his mom there. It's clear that losing her without getting to say goodbye was traumatic. Digging those demons back up, finding out your best friend's oldest friend performed the hit and he kept it from you, brainwashed or not...he snapped. Gorgon's suggestion is that Tony can't be human and snap under the right situations. This is a human reaction from Tony. And last I checked, despite the metal in his chest, he's still human.

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There are simply too many movies in the MCU for me to quantify them all, even splitting them into thirds as Creeping Death did. I'd have to just go with unordered clumps.

My top clump, in no special order:

Spider-Man: Homecoming
Thor: Ragnarok
Guardians of the Galaxy


My bottom clump:

Thor: The Dark World (although I did love the visuals in the funeral scene, this was not a very good movie)
Iron Man 3
Iron Man 2, which is I think tied with Iron Man 3 for the worst movie in the MCU.

Of special note, I would say Iron Man is (I think) the best movie in the MCU. It's not my favorite, but I think it tells the essential MCU story in an incredibly simple, straightforward, and accessible way. You do not need to be a comic book fan or have any history to walk in and love it.


Into the Spider-Verse would be in my top clump if it was an MCU movie, also.

 LunarSol wrote:
The funny thing about the MCU is there are so many good movies that something can be great and rank pretty low. My reaction to Captain Marvel was that it was one of the best solo origin films and ended up not cracking my top 10 and still...


Yes, I didn't name around 15 movies somewhere in the middle that I generally loved. Only Iron Man 2 did I find legitimately bad - IM3 at least had some saving graces. I loved the Mandarin, although I could understand people who hated it. The rest of it was very meh at best, but IM2 didn't even have that really.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/15 18:30:32


 
   
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 timetowaste85 wrote:
Well, yeah. He hated his dad. But he loved his mom and couldn't get over the last interaction being fairly crappy. He shows us a sequence and says he wishes that was how it turned out; he was fairly rude even to his mom there. It's clear that losing her without getting to say goodbye was traumatic. Digging those demons back up, finding out your best friend's oldest friend performed the hit and he kept it from you, brainwashed or not...he snapped. Gorgon's suggestion is that Tony can't be human and snap under the right situations. This is a human reaction from Tony. And last I checked, despite the metal in his chest, he's still human.


That was one of the few pieces of civil war that seemed authentic. Most of the rest was posturing for the airport promo shots.

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Southeastern PA, USA

Seemed like an awfully calculated crime of passion, though. "I don't care, he killed my mom." Said calmly. In other words, I've processed that Bucky is actually innocent, but I'm going to murder him and you and any other innocent if you get in my way...because I am. That's different than blowing up some terrorists.

If the idea is that Tony has always been a psycho killer gakbag, it undermines the story about heroes with opposing but legit viewpoints even more than the movie already does. And I don't know why we're supposed to like him in anything that came after. Might have been interesting if the MCU had run with the idea that Tony is kind of a bad guy. But by the end of the film things are already headed back to good with Cap's message. Okay?

All it had to be was a misunderstanding -- Tony going after Bucky NOT knowing he was a meat puppet -- and that part of the film just works better. As it was, it just didn't sit right with me, and I guess I'm not someone who's carried along by the MCU enough to look past it. *shrug*

@Ouze -- Jon Favreau deserves far more credit (and probably far more money too) than he gets for launching the MCU AND showing Marvel the way forward.

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I didnt say tony was a psyco killer. I said he was a killer. Hawkeye is a killer. Thors a killer. Hulks a killer. They are all killers. You cant take someone who has been a killer, for personal vengeful reasons before, place him in a room with the guy who actually caried out his lifes greatest trauma, and then say its out of character for him to go murderous.

Tony stark is not carnage. He isnt killing willy nilly for fun. But he IS a killer and will do it for personal reasons. And has killed more people for less personal reasons.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
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Council of 13 Runner Up






It all depends.

In its way, it shows that Tony Stark is still some way from redemption. Remember, this is the guy that designed The Jericho, heedless of just how horrifically destructive it was.

It’s not so much that his weapons wound up in the ‘wrong’* hands, but that he’d brought so much misery to the world, whilst he lived in the lap of absolute luxury.

That some shred of the feckless, ruthless Tony Stark remains is to me a good thing. It shows he’s still very much human, and his morals are not straight forwardly good.

Indeed, what use is the incorruptible hero when fighting corruption? It’s like The genuinely fearless being confused with being brave. It’s that inner fight that makes their victory over it count, that is the backbone of all heroes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though this thread has managed to shine a light on just why the MCU is such a ridiculously reliable license to print money.

There’s only a couple of films that are commonly appearing on the bottom of lists. And even then, people are saying ‘it’s not that it’s a bad Film’.

I mean, my bottom five? In particular order....

Doctor Strange, Hulk, The Darkworld, and well, that’s about it. It’s a bottom three. And each remains an entertaining and watchable film in its own right. And Hulk is only in there because they changed Banner, so it sticks out more.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/15 19:21:37


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And tony, if anything, is defined by not comprehending the consequences of his actions until they come back to bite him.

He might have the best of intentions. But people still keep paying for his feth ups. Im sure if he killed bucky he would have fealt real bad about it when they fully proved he was innocent. Would have paid for a real big funeral and post mortem honors and gak. But he for sure would have killed him first in the moment.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in gb
Council of 13 Runner Up






True that.

This is where I feel (deviating from the topic for a brief moment) the MCU really shines over the DCU, and other comic films. The characters, despite their ridiculous powers, still come across as relatable.

That’s actually probably quite hard to write - and why I still appreciate Age Of Ultron. Yes it’s not their best film by some margin, but Scarlett Witch’s trickery shows us their flaws and foibles nicely. It also provides quite a lot of foreshadowing for films to come (well, films that were to come). Ultron is the result of yet again Stark’s perfectly good intentions bearing repulsive fruit, like the man is cursed. I think they could’ve played that less subtly, but in hindsight in works well enough.

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Not to mention that at that point, Tony is at his lowest since the end of Avengers Assemble. In the last 24 hours, he's fought one of his closest friends and they've both been beaten to a bloody pulp, he's seen another of his best mates get paralysed in a horrific friendly fire accident, watched as the team that's been his life for the last 5 years falls apart and at that point, is also wondering if he's on the right side at all.

And then he's face to face with the man he's just watched murder his beloved mother and set him on the path that's caused him no end of unresolved grief. The person that happens to also have been at the centre of all the tragedy mentioned above.

With the amount of stress that places him, maybe the most humanly fallible of the Avengers, under, it's no real shock that he lashes out entirely irrationally.

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Norwalk, Connecticut

Yeah, honestly, it's hard to figure out how anyone can just "not get it" on this subject; Tony has been emotionally bludgeoned over and over again, and he snaps. Any of us would do something similar. We can't all be Toby Maguire's Spidey and forgive Sandman for killing Uncle Ben because it was all an accident. And yes, it's the exact same situation; somebody pushed the trigger finger on Bucky/Sandman. Tony and Peter each have their way to handle their biggest loss.

Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

This is where I feel (deviating from the topic for a brief moment) the MCU really shines over the DCU, and other comic films. The characters, despite their ridiculous powers, still come across as relatable.


It just takes a good writer regardless of which major publisher you're talking about. Part of why I'm such a huge fan of Geoff Johns is that he seems to fundamentally get how DC's characters past needs to shape who they are. Arthur Curry is a man who is never enough for anyone and leans on those closest to him to do what he must even when no one will thank him for it. Hal Jordan has unwavering faith in his own power but fears attachments to others that might limit his freedoms. Barry Allen perpetually can do more in a second than most in a day but cannot escape the consequences of time. Stuff like that is where DC really shines in the comics department, but just kind of flounders on film. Superman tends to get the worst of it; stripping him of the things that make him human in favor of making him more alien and godlike. I keep waiting for someone to really get what Superman 2 was so great and it has a lot to do with why the same movie was just as good when Spiderman was the title character.
   
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 timetowaste85 wrote:
Yeah, honestly, it's hard to figure out how anyone can just "not get it" on this subject; Tony has been emotionally bludgeoned over and over again, and he snaps. Any of us would do something similar. We can't all be Toby Maguire's Spidey and forgive Sandman for killing Uncle Ben because it was all an accident. And yes, it's the exact same situation; somebody pushed the trigger finger on Bucky/Sandman. Tony and Peter each have their way to handle their biggest loss.


Sorry to bring everyone down, but this resonates with me. And this is a kind of catharsis for me right now.

Found out last night that Mumsie’s cancer is terminal. And worse, it’s upper bowel cancer. Which means she’s basically destined to starve to death. Which is effing horrible.

I’m equal parts angry, enraged, powerless and too many emotions to properly express. But at least I have time to come to terms with it, and put a proper psychological pot, lid and indeed handle, given time.

To find out the ‘accident’ that killed your parents wasn’t even slightly accidental? That’s....that’s a proper body blow. Especially when you know you can take the (insert expletive) that did it. When you can make that cause suffer and cause no more harm.

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gak, that sucks MDG! I'm sorry (and I'm sure the rest of the members here are too) to hear that!!

Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

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Can’t be helped, and nothin to do but wait I’m afraid.

Trying to maintain the stiff upper lip, and succeeding perhaps 60ish% of the time.

But thank you.

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1.) Infinity war
2.) Civil War
3.) Cap 2
4.) Iron man 1
5.) Guardians 1

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Sorry to bring everyone down, but this resonates with me. And this is a kind of catharsis for me right now.


I'm so sorry to hear that.

I almost mentioned this earlier in the thread, but now seems like a far more appropriate time. The whole MCU is a weird time marking for me because it basically exists as the entire time of my life after my mom died. Incredible Hulk is a particularly hard read for me because my best friend took me to see it the day she died essentially to get me away from everything. She never really shared exactly how bad things were and one of the last real, hanging out together conversations we had was the Mother's Day after Iron Man was released and how exciting it was and maybe these movies would be a thing but nobody really knew yet and how I'd lend her the BluRay so she could watch it. She wasn't a comic fan or anything, but a movie fan and its been odd realizing that the time in which something I really enjoy has dominated the industry is something I never really got to share with her.

Anyway, sorry for the heavy rambling. Just not sure what else to say beyond how sorry I am to hear that.
   
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 gorgon wrote:
Seemed like an awfully calculated crime of passion, though. "I don't care, he killed my mom." Said calmly. In other words, I've processed that Bucky is actually innocent, but I'm going to murder him and you and any other innocent if you get in my way...because I am. That's different than blowing up some terrorists.


Well, the latter part is definitely you adding stuff that isn't there. Tony never threatened to kill innocents.

And on the former part... Bucky isn't in any way innocent (that he didn't kill some king of wherever is incidental to the confrontation they're having, though its worth realizing that had Bucky been triggered, he totally would have). That he killed Tony's mother isn't in dispute. And its not even vaguely calculated, Tony literally just found out that Bucky was the one that did it. If people watching the movie want to have an ethics debate about personal responsibility when mind control is involved, that's totally fine, but for the character, he just got to watch the video of a man killing his mother and the man is standing right there. Anger and vengeance is the appropriate reaction

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Voss wrote:
If people watching the movie want to have an ethics debate about personal responsibility when mind control is involved, that's totally fine, but for the character, he just got to watch the video of a man killing his mother and the man is standing right there. Anger and vengeance is the appropriate reaction


Well... no. It's a UNDERSTANDABLE reaction. The appropriate one is calming the feth down and taking all the information into account like Cap does on the regular. If cap reacted like tony did he would have popped his head off with his shield. But instead he just disabled his weapon.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
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I admit I'm shocked Civil War ranks so highly in this thread. I thought it was one of the worst MCU films I've seen (but I also think Black Panther was absolutely garbage). Other than a couple of laugh-inducing moments, I never enjoy any of the super hero fights in these films - particularly between the good guys. We know there are zero consequences. None. Zilch. Nada. No lasting injuries, impacts, deaths, etc.

If I'm honest, I don't think I'd put a single MCU film over some of the Marvel TV shows (well...streaming shows?)

 
   
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 Lance845 wrote:
Voss wrote:
If people watching the movie want to have an ethics debate about personal responsibility when mind control is involved, that's totally fine, but for the character, he just got to watch the video of a man killing his mother and the man is standing right there. Anger and vengeance is the appropriate reaction


Well... no. It's a UNDERSTANDABLE reaction. The appropriate one is calming the feth down and taking all the information into account like Cap does on the regular. If cap reacted like tony did he would have popped his head off with his shield. But instead he just disabled his weapon.


Eh, given the decades long career as an assassin, I'm not sure that's appropriate either. Frankly, it'd be a mercy to what's left of Bucky- I think Caps approach is rather cruel.

But that's a weird, bizarre characterization of movie Cap. He's never taking all the information into account- he's reacting to things that affect him on a personal level (like assassin=Bucky=Bucky is to be protected regardless to the cost of everyone else), and is very rarely rational, or taking in all the information. He just reacts and runs off to do his own thing, everyone else be damned if they can't be talked into following along.

In addition to civil war, both winter soldier, cap 1 and avengers 1 and 2 hinge on him just walking out of discussions without waiting for all the information. This usually works out positively because plot, but it's not because he's got all the information

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/16 11:57:24


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