Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Jidmah wrote:
I'm ok with Death Guard not getting all the new stuff. There are fluff reasons to not have havocs or obliterators in the death guard, since Mortarion thinks heavy weapons should not be carried around by infantry - our special plague spore daemon engines reflect that properly. We don't have warp smiths, so we shouldn't have a warp smith riding some daemon engine either.

I still would have liked to get those greater possessed, since we did get regular possessed

The detachments from the previous vigilus book are more about fun and thematic armies than about adding power to codices. Not being part of the fun sucks.

We do benefit from the stargate though, I guess that's something.

Fluff reasons are dumb and can be changed. 1ksons don't have things to stick in helbrutes yet the helbrute fluff entry was changed to be special snowflake for 1ksons. Not to mention no one knows more about sorcery that 1ksons you don't think they don't know how to force daemons into people to make possessed? If we can magic up helbrutes I think its pretty easy to magic up some possessed. 1ksons had heavy weapons before did the rubric make it so that they just can't use them anymore? Havocs make a lot of sense in 1ksons hell the all is dust rule is half of what the new havocs got. All in all its whatever I can still legally take them most of the time. However, where as before I could just take a unit of those if I wanted now I have to dedicate an entire detachment and way more points than I used to have too. Most of the new stuff isn't amazing I just want access to the stuff the daemonkin psychic powers since we have all the daemon engines for some reason.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
T.Sons are most likely the guys who get the worse deal out of the new codexes. Unlike Death guard, who had a million new units with unique feel and rules, Sons got rubrics + scarabs, an import of goats from AoS and, because they were not enough to fill the pages, they were left with all the old nobody-uses-me-anymore units like preadators, vindicators, land raiders and the generic daemon engines, all of which have absolutely zero synergy with thousand sons.

Additionally, since the lore of change (the T.Sons specific lore) can only buff <THOUSAND SONS> units, this already makes it awkward to play any of the new stuff. I mean, I still will play them, but it won't be the same.

Ultimately the Thousand Sons are left with their standard supreme command detachment of Ahriman on Disc + 2 Daemon Princes, brought in to supplement daemon armies or to buff whichever new hotness the CSM codex will bring. Their legion trait doesn't help around it either, being the single trait in ANY codex that buffs the least models possible from the army, giving you no incentive to play anything else than just characters.

What justification would you have for thousand sons possessed or obliterators? Can't really mutate a pile of dust.

I feel havocs should maybe get a tweak and appear in some capacity for thousand sons, however the shortcoming is that the thousand sons book needs some more kit support rather than anything, not just inherit what vanilla chaos gets.

 Jidmah wrote:
I'm ok with Death Guard not getting all the new stuff. There are fluff reasons to not have havocs or obliterators in the death guard, since Mortarion thinks heavy weapons should not be carried around by infantry - our special plague spore daemon engines reflect that properly. We don't have warp smiths, so we shouldn't have a warp smith riding some daemon engine either.

I still would have liked to get those greater possessed, since we did get regular possessed

The detachments from the previous vigilus book are more about fun and thematic armies than about adding power to codices. Not being part of the fun sucks.

We do benefit from the stargate though, I guess that's something.

See, normally I'm fine with this, however deathguard is the only way to play nurgle marines and have them feel nurgley as is.

Which is stupid beyond all belief.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
In all honesty, given that havocs are T5 already, if they were allowed for DG itwould make them T6. Which is insane on basic infantry. While I realize that’s only a single unit, it would be a pretty big deal. I think GW went with “what is fair on the table” more than “what was allowed in a single army back in the day before we fleshed this army out to be its own thing”. I collect Chaos and I’m completely unbothered by this.

Not a single model got +1T for gaining the Death Guard keyword, there is no reason to believe havocs would get it.

Dudeface wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
T.Sons are most likely the guys who get the worse deal out of the new codexes. Unlike Death guard, who had a million new units with unique feel and rules, Sons got rubrics + scarabs, an import of goats from AoS and, because they were not enough to fill the pages, they were left with all the old nobody-uses-me-anymore units like preadators, vindicators, land raiders and the generic daemon engines, all of which have absolutely zero synergy with thousand sons.

Additionally, since the lore of change (the T.Sons specific lore) can only buff <THOUSAND SONS> units, this already makes it awkward to play any of the new stuff. I mean, I still will play them, but it won't be the same.

Ultimately the Thousand Sons are left with their standard supreme command detachment of Ahriman on Disc + 2 Daemon Princes, brought in to supplement daemon armies or to buff whichever new hotness the CSM codex will bring. Their legion trait doesn't help around it either, being the single trait in ANY codex that buffs the least models possible from the army, giving you no incentive to play anything else than just characters.

What justification would you have for thousand sons possessed or obliterators? Can't really mutate a pile of dust.

I feel havocs should maybe get a tweak and appear in some capacity for thousand sons, however the shortcoming is that the thousand sons book needs some more kit support rather than anything, not just inherit what vanilla chaos gets.

Anything mutated could perfectly be a pre-Rubric cast remnant. Same reason they do get access to chaos spawns in their codex, and they even have an actual stratagem that turns a sorcerer into a spawn. Or that Magnus' blade turns stuff it kills into spawns. Or the Mutalith Vortex Beast (tell me that thing ain't mutated).
Even if you don't want to go to that lengths though, why couldn't there be rubric havocs or rubric bikers? Or rubric raptors? How are Daemon Engines more connected to Thousand Sons than havocs? And how on earth did the Thousand Sons completely forgot what plasma weapons are, or power fists, or power axes etc?

Let's not even go to the point where rubric marines run away to morale. Try justifying that one in fluff.

The Salt Mine wrote:
Fluff reasons are dumb and can be changed. 1ksons don't have things to stick in helbrutes yet the helbrute fluff entry was changed to be special snowflake for 1ksons. Not to mention no one knows more about sorcery that 1ksons you don't think they don't know how to force daemons into people to make possessed? If we can magic up helbrutes I think its pretty easy to magic up some possessed. 1ksons had heavy weapons before did the rubric make it so that they just can't use them anymore? Havocs make a lot of sense in 1ksons hell the all is dust rule is half of what the new havocs got. All in all its whatever I can still legally take them most of the time. However, where as before I could just take a unit of those if I wanted now I have to dedicate an entire detachment and way more points than I used to have too. Most of the new stuff isn't amazing I just want access to the stuff the daemonkin psychic powers since we have all the daemon engines for some reason.

Well, considering how much stuff TS and DG have that CSM don't get, it's fine that they have some stuff that we don't get. I bet some of them would love to have a model for Pertuarbo or Lorgar that might never be done.

Not getting everything is fine, getting nothing is what bugs me.

If Thousand Sons are allowed Defilers, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends and Helldrakes, they should be allowed Venomcrawlers and Lord Discordants. Not getting them just because they were printed later, when the notion is obviously that Sons should have access to the daemon engines is nonsensical.

Unless the notion was not that Sons should get access to the daemon engines, but instead -as I suspect- it was just an entry to fill in the pages to justifty enough units in order to split the army into a different codex.

What justification would you have for thousand sons possessed or obliterators? Can't really mutate a pile of dust.

I feel havocs should maybe get a tweak and appear in some capacity for thousand sons, however the shortcoming is that the thousand sons book needs some more kit support rather than anything, not just inherit what vanilla chaos gets.

They same way a helbrute is justified. An exalted sorcerer forced some demons into non 1kson marine bodies and now they do his bidding

If you want justification to run Obliterators alongside Thousand Sons, it'd be easy but you'd want different models. Original fluff for Obliterators were that they were Techmarines gone mad (basically Techmarines who gave into tech and went full Admech style obssession, etc.) You could easily have dusty old Thousand Sons Techmarines, etc. I don't think the new models would suit them (that's why I think the Necromunda Ambots are better Obliterators than the new models).

The Salt Mine wrote:

What justification would you have for thousand sons possessed or obliterators? Can't really mutate a pile of dust.

I feel havocs should maybe get a tweak and appear in some capacity for thousand sons, however the shortcoming is that the thousand sons book needs some more kit support rather than anything, not just inherit what vanilla chaos gets.

They same way a helbrute is justified. An exalted sorcerer forced some demons into non 1kson marine bodies and now they do his bidding

But then you enter realms of let them have everything and anything because "sorcerer made me do it". If that were the case you might aswell just roll them back into the generic book.

You either have to embrace that the armies are different and deserve different rules for different kits, or roll them back in. No they shouldn't have everything more plain Jane legions have + all the unique stuff.

the heavy posssed aspect definatly does not woirk for 1K sons and IMHO death guard should have differant things as well.. more.... pleaguey.

But then you enter realms of let them have everything and anything because "sorcerer made me do it". If that were the case you might aswell just roll them back into the generic book.

You either have to embrace that the armies are different and deserve different rules for different kits, or roll them back in. No they shouldn't have everything more plain Jane legions have + all the unique stuff.

Roll them back into the book, give more legions unique stuff, leave their unique stuff.

It's like magic!

 Sir Heckington wrote:

But then you enter realms of let them have everything and anything because "sorcerer made me do it". If that were the case you might aswell just roll them back into the generic book.

You either have to embrace that the armies are different and deserve different rules for different kits, or roll them back in. No they shouldn't have everything more plain Jane legions have + all the unique stuff.

Roll them back into the book, give more legions unique stuff, leave their unique stuff.

It's like magic!

A several hundred page codex doesn't help anyone, it's the same arguments marine players have with every loyalist release, except that the legions are even more bespoke and it does make sense that they don't share some units.

If you want access to new vanilla stuff for thousand sons or death guard then my renegades would love access to blight haulers and tzaangors.

Dudeface wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:

But then you enter realms of let them have everything and anything because "sorcerer made me do it". If that were the case you might aswell just roll them back into the generic book.

You either have to embrace that the armies are different and deserve different rules for different kits, or roll them back in. No they shouldn't have everything more plain Jane legions have + all the unique stuff.

Roll them back into the book, give more legions unique stuff, leave their unique stuff.

It's like magic!

A several hundred page codex doesn't help anyone, it's the same arguments marine players have with every loyalist release, except that the legions are even more bespoke and it does make sense that they don't share some units.

If you want access to new vanilla stuff for thousand sons or death guard then my renegades would love access to blight haulers and tzaangors.

Sons already have access to:

Cultists
Rhinos
Vindicators
Predators
Land Raiders
Hellbrutes
Helldrakes
Defiler
Maulerfiend
Forgefiend
Chaos Spawns (Spawns. In a Rubric codex. SPAWNS).

In contrast, the "Thousand Sons unique" units in the codex are:
Exalted Sorcerer
Rubrics
Scarab Occult
Tzaangors
Shaman
Tzaangor Enlightened
Mutalith Vortex Beast

So define "vanilla stuff" please. It is obvious to anyone that has touched the T.Sons book that it's half baked. They simply did not have enough kits to make a new existing army. Deathguard had all the new funky stuff, plaguecrawlers and foetid drones and different flavors of terminators and sloppity slibbity pox-something-caster-haulers etc etc etc. T.Sons had the exalted sorcerer kit, the rubrics and the scarabs. Period. That was obviously not enough, so instead of coming up with actual kits for the army, they decided to import some AoS stuff and suddenly change the lore of the whole army (POW SPACE GOATS! Howabboutthat?). Then they discovered that -obviously- this was still not enough to make a codex. Then the obvious solution was to add a bunch of generic vanilla CSM stuff just to fill the datasheet requirements, with zero synergy with the army tactics, units that really feel off and weird when you place them next to your psykers. So if GW are able to do such a mess of a half baked half assed codex, where literally more than half of the entries ARE from vanilla CSM, I trust in them that they can continue to do half assed solution and give the codex an actual treatment.

People are very preoccupied with how Ahriman appears in every list to notice the complete non-existent content of the rest of the codex.

The problem is that it's just not going to look right having 'standard' CSM turning up in deathguard and TSon lists. Since all TSons (except sorcerers) are dust and all deathguard are bloated and pestilant monstrosities, they would need to make 3 sculpts for each unit, and some (such as Executioners and Dark Apostles) would be really unfluffy for T Sons.

I think the same will happen to WE and EC when they get a codex in the next year or so. That's why soup works so well, if you want shiney new units just bring Scourged with your TSons or Purge if you're going for Deathguard.

Dudeface wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:

But then you enter realms of let them have everything and anything because "sorcerer made me do it". If that were the case you might aswell just roll them back into the generic book.

You either have to embrace that the armies are different and deserve different rules for different kits, or roll them back in. No they shouldn't have everything more plain Jane legions have + all the unique stuff.

Roll them back into the book, give more legions unique stuff, leave their unique stuff.

It's like magic!

A several hundred page codex doesn't help anyone, it's the same arguments marine players have with every loyalist release, except that the legions are even more bespoke and it does make sense that they don't share some units.

If you want access to new vanilla stuff for thousand sons or death guard then my renegades would love access to blight haulers and tzaangors.

Sure! Why not. You honestly are telling my thousand sons are the only ones with tzaangors? Death Guard are the only one with blight haulers?

You keep saying 'you', like I play either of these armies, no, I really don't.

 Sir Heckington wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:

But then you enter realms of let them have everything and anything because "sorcerer made me do it". If that were the case you might aswell just roll them back into the generic book.

You either have to embrace that the armies are different and deserve different rules for different kits, or roll them back in. No they shouldn't have everything more plain Jane legions have + all the unique stuff.

Roll them back into the book, give more legions unique stuff, leave their unique stuff.

It's like magic!

A several hundred page codex doesn't help anyone, it's the same arguments marine players have with every loyalist release, except that the legions are even more bespoke and it does make sense that they don't share some units.

If you want access to new vanilla stuff for thousand sons or death guard then my renegades would love access to blight haulers and tzaangors.

Sure! Why not. You honestly are telling my thousand sons are the only ones with tzaangors? Death Guard are the only one with blight haulers?

You keep saying 'you', like I play either of these armies, no, I really don't.

Clearly it was a royal you in the sense of the person perceiving the book, you can opt to re-read my post with "the reader" in place of you should you prefer.

But yes tzaangors are from the planet of the sorcerers, hence are included in thousand sons armies. The new nurgle daemon engines are noted to be designed by Mortarion himself, hence make sense to be locked down.

So define "vanilla stuff" please. It is obvious to anyone that has touched the T.Sons book that it's half baked. They simply did not have enough kits to make a new existing army. Deathguard had all the new funky stuff, plaguecrawlers and foetid drones and different flavors of terminators and sloppity slibbity pox-something-caster-haulers etc etc etc. T.Sons had the exalted sorcerer kit, the rubrics and the scarabs. Period. That was obviously not enough, so instead of coming up with actual kits for the army, they decided to import some AoS stuff and suddenly change the lore of the whole army (POW SPACE GOATS! Howabboutthat?). Then they discovered that -obviously- this was still not enough to make a codex. Then the obvious solution was to add a bunch of generic vanilla CSM stuff just to fill the datasheet requirements, with zero synergy with the army tactics, units that really feel off and weird when you place them next to your psykers. So if GW are able to do such a mess of a half baked half assed codex, where literally more than half of the entries ARE from vanilla CSM, I trust in them that they can continue to do half assed solution and give the codex an actual treatment.

People are very preoccupied with how Ahriman appears in every list to notice the complete non-existent content of the rest of the codex.

Huh, does Death Guard really have that much more than TS?
Let's check:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Sons already have access to:

Cultists
Rhinos
Vindicators
Predators
Land Raiders
Hellbrutes
Helldrakes
Defiler
Maulerfiend
Forgefiend
Chaos Spawns (Spawns. In a Rubric codex. SPAWNS).

I'll skip daemon princes and sorcerers since everyone has those

Death Guard has:
Chaos Lord
Terminator Lord
Cultists
Rhino
Helbrute
Possessed
Chaos Spawn
Landraider
Predator
Defiler

So for vanilla options, TS get 14 over the DG's 13, one more vanilla option.

In contrast, the "Thousand Sons unique" units in the codex are:
Exalted Sorcerer
Rubrics
Scarab Occult
Tzaangors
Shaman
Tzaangor Enlightened
Mutalith Vortex Beast

You forgot Magnus and Ahriman.

DG has:
Lord of Contagion
Malignant Plaguecaster
Typhus
Plague Marines
Pox Walkers
Blightlord Terminators
Deathshroud Terminators
Biologous Putrefier
Foul Blightspawn
Plague Surgeon
Noxious Blightbringer
Tallyman
Foetid Bloat-drone
Myphitic Blight-Haulers
Plagueburst Crawler
Mortarion

So TS get 9 vs Death Guard's 16, for a total of 23 datasheets for Thousand Sons and 29 for Death Guard. You do have three times as many psychic powers though, so it kind of evens out.

From a purely thematic background, TS should not be getting greater possessed or lord discordant since they have neither possessed nor warp smiths. Anything else is up for interpretation though.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Spoiler:

Dudeface wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:

But then you enter realms of let them have everything and anything because "sorcerer made me do it". If that were the case you might aswell just roll them back into the generic book.

You either have to embrace that the armies are different and deserve different rules for different kits, or roll them back in. No they shouldn't have everything more plain Jane legions have + all the unique stuff.

Roll them back into the book, give more legions unique stuff, leave their unique stuff.

It's like magic!

A several hundred page codex doesn't help anyone, it's the same arguments marine players have with every loyalist release, except that the legions are even more bespoke and it does make sense that they don't share some units.

If you want access to new vanilla stuff for thousand sons or death guard then my renegades would love access to blight haulers and tzaangors.

Sons already have access to:

Cultists
Rhinos
Vindicators
Predators
Land Raiders
Hellbrutes
Helldrakes
Defiler
Maulerfiend
Forgefiend
Chaos Spawns (Spawns. In a Rubric codex. SPAWNS).

In contrast, the "Thousand Sons unique" units in the codex are:
Exalted Sorcerer
Rubrics
Scarab Occult
Tzaangors
Shaman
Tzaangor Enlightened
Mutalith Vortex Beast

So define "vanilla stuff" please. It is obvious to anyone that has touched the T.Sons book that it's half baked. They simply did not have enough kits to make a new existing army. Deathguard had all the new funky stuff, plaguecrawlers and foetid drones and different flavors of terminators and sloppity slibbity pox-something-caster-haulers etc etc etc. T.Sons had the exalted sorcerer kit, the rubrics and the scarabs. Period. That was obviously not enough, so instead of coming up with actual kits for the army, they decided to import some AoS stuff and suddenly change the lore of the whole army (POW SPACE GOATS! Howabboutthat?). Then they discovered that -obviously- this was still not enough to make a codex. Then the obvious solution was to add a bunch of generic vanilla CSM stuff just to fill the datasheet requirements, with zero synergy with the army tactics, units that really feel off and weird when you place them next to your psykers. So if GW are able to do such a mess of a half baked half assed codex, where literally more than half of the entries ARE from vanilla CSM, I trust in them that they can continue to do half assed solution and give the codex an actual treatment.

People are very preoccupied with how Ahriman appears in every list to notice the complete non-existent content of the rest of the codex.

I agree entirely and i feel that players should push for more unique entries rather than complaining they don't have vencomcrawlers. Does it make sense a rubric marine forgot how to use a missile launcher? Not really, but surely a TSons unique heavy weapons unit could be more flavorful and give them a unique edge.

I kinda like the idea if they introduced some psyneucien in place of some daemon engines for example.

Dudeface wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:

But then you enter realms of let them have everything and anything because "sorcerer made me do it". If that were the case you might aswell just roll them back into the generic book.

You either have to embrace that the armies are different and deserve different rules for different kits, or roll them back in. No they shouldn't have everything more plain Jane legions have + all the unique stuff.

Roll them back into the book, give more legions unique stuff, leave their unique stuff.

It's like magic!

A several hundred page codex doesn't help anyone, it's the same arguments marine players have with every loyalist release, except that the legions are even more bespoke and it does make sense that they don't share some units.

If you want access to new vanilla stuff for thousand sons or death guard then my renegades would love access to blight haulers and tzaangors.

Sure! Why not. You honestly are telling my thousand sons are the only ones with tzaangors? Death Guard are the only one with blight haulers?

You keep saying 'you', like I play either of these armies, no, I really don't.

Clearly it was a royal you in the sense of the person perceiving the book, you can opt to re-read my post with "the reader" in place of you should you prefer.

But yes tzaangors are from the planet of the sorcerers, hence are included in thousand sons armies. The new nurgle daemon engines are noted to be designed by Mortarion himself, hence make sense to be locked down.

And forgive me for my frankness, but that's stupid.

Tzaangors should just be Tzeentch alinged beastmen, and beastmen should be a thing probably not in any CSM book, but that's another argument

And what if other people got their hands on those daemon engines? I gurantee it happens, especially when those renegades work with the deathguard (e.g: The purge)

Each legion can have a few unique units, that's fine by me, but there's no way the legions are unique enough to deserve their own codex.

You can make an argument for Death Guard, maybe, but Thousand Sons really cannot be created in a satisfying way with the CSM book. The Rubric of Ahriman is a massive limitation on what you can and cannot take in a TS list, if they didn't have their own unique stuff they would have basically nothing that isn't "mercenaries from other legions" and other flimsy excuses.

 Sir Heckington wrote:

Spoiler:

Dudeface wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:

But then you enter realms of let them have everything and anything because "sorcerer made me do it". If that were the case you might aswell just roll them back into the generic book.

You either have to embrace that the armies are different and deserve different rules for different kits, or roll them back in. No they shouldn't have everything more plain Jane legions have + all the unique stuff.

Roll them back into the book, give more legions unique stuff, leave their unique stuff.

It's like magic!

A several hundred page codex doesn't help anyone, it's the same arguments marine players have with every loyalist release, except that the legions are even more bespoke and it does make sense that they don't share some units.

If you want access to new vanilla stuff for thousand sons or death guard then my renegades would love access to blight haulers and tzaangors.

Sure! Why not. You honestly are telling my thousand sons are the only ones with tzaangors? Death Guard are the only one with blight haulers?

You keep saying 'you', like I play either of these armies, no, I really don't.

Clearly it was a royal you in the sense of the person perceiving the book, you can opt to re-read my post with "the reader" in place of you should you prefer.

But yes tzaangors are from the planet of the sorcerers, hence are included in thousand sons armies. The new nurgle daemon engines are noted to be designed by Mortarion himself, hence make sense to be locked down.

And forgive me for my frankness, but that's stupid.

Tzaangors should just be Tzeentch alinged beastmen, and beastmen should be a thing probably not in any CSM book, but that's another argument

And what if other people got their hands on those daemon engines? I gurantee it happens, especially when those renegades work with the deathguard (e.g: The purge)

Each legion can have a few unique units, that's fine by me, but there's no way the legions are unique enough to deserve their own codex.

That's fine and I can understand your perspective since mutants are far from rare in the setting, but that's the justification in the books they use. It's no weirder than arguing that any space marine chapter could slap a shield and an axe on a dreadnought, not just wolves.

 Sir Heckington wrote:
And what if other people got their hands on those daemon engines? I gurantee it happens, especially when those renegades work with the deathguard (e.g: The purge)

According to the fluff, they die a slow and painful death due to not being immune to the plagues they are emitting.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
You can make an argument for Death Guard, maybe, but Thousand Sons really cannot be created in a satisfying way with the CSM book. The Rubric of Ahriman is a massive limitation on what you can and cannot take in a TS list, if they didn't have their own unique stuff they would have basically nothing that isn't "mercenaries from other legions" and other flimsy excuses.

I disagree. Give those units some unique fluff as to why they have them.

Oblits? Make thousand son oblits psykers, do something fun with that.

They can still have their unique stuff, that which can't be folded into other stuff, which is perfectly fine.

 Sir Heckington wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
You can make an argument for Death Guard, maybe, but Thousand Sons really cannot be created in a satisfying way with the CSM book. The Rubric of Ahriman is a massive limitation on what you can and cannot take in a TS list, if they didn't have their own unique stuff they would have basically nothing that isn't "mercenaries from other legions" and other flimsy excuses.

I disagree. Give those units some unique fluff as to why they have them.

Oblits? Make thousand son oblits psykers, do something fun with that.

They can still have their unique stuff, that which can't be folded into other stuff, which is perfectly fine.

Psyker Oblits would be a completely different unit... because they would be psykers. If you're going to give every baseline CSM unit that should have been dusted unique rules to make them work under the Thousand Sons paradigm, you may as well give them a new book.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
You can make an argument for Death Guard, maybe, but Thousand Sons really cannot be created in a satisfying way with the CSM book. The Rubric of Ahriman is a massive limitation on what you can and cannot take in a TS list, if they didn't have their own unique stuff they would have basically nothing that isn't "mercenaries from other legions" and other flimsy excuses.

I disagree. Give those units some unique fluff as to why they have them.

Oblits? Make thousand son oblits psykers, do something fun with that.

They can still have their unique stuff, that which can't be folded into other stuff, which is perfectly fine.

Psyker Oblits would be a completely different unit... because they would be psykers. If you're going to give every baseline CSM unit that should have been dusted unique rules to make them work under the Thousand Sons paradigm, you may as well give them a new book.

Would they?

I seem to think of a very easy way to make sergeants of units pyskers.

Mark of Tzeentch/Thousand Sons trait, whichever suits your fancy. Mark of Tzeentch works better probably for that option. Or maybe give some more fluff on what oblits an be, or restrit em, that's what, 1 unit out of a codex? 2 if you go with possessed?

 Sir Heckington wrote:
Mark of Tzeentch/Thousand Sons trait, whichever suits your fancy. Mark of Tzeentch works better probably for that option. Or maybe give some more fluff on what oblits an be, or restrit em, that's what, 1 unit out of a codex? 2 if you go with possessed?

Let's count them out! All of the following units in Codex: Heretic Astartes would have been reduced to dust by the Rubric of Ahriman:

Chaos Lord
Dark Apostle
Master of Executions
Warpsmith
Exalted Champion
Lord Discordant
Chaos Space Marines
Chosen
Chaos Terminators
Possessed
Mutilators
Chaos Bikers
Chaos Raptors
Warp Talons
Obliterators
Havocs

All of these units are not in the Thousand Sons codex for the very understandable reason of "not existing post-Rubric". I sure hope you feel the same way about the loyalist marine codexes as you do the Thousand Sons, because if any legion needs its own codex its the sons of Magnus.

 Sir Heckington wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
You can make an argument for Death Guard, maybe, but Thousand Sons really cannot be created in a satisfying way with the CSM book. The Rubric of Ahriman is a massive limitation on what you can and cannot take in a TS list, if they didn't have their own unique stuff they would have basically nothing that isn't "mercenaries from other legions" and other flimsy excuses.

I disagree. Give those units some unique fluff as to why they have them.

Oblits? Make thousand son oblits psykers, do something fun with that.

They can still have their unique stuff, that which can't be folded into other stuff, which is perfectly fine.

Psyker Oblits would be a completely different unit... because they would be psykers. If you're going to give every baseline CSM unit that should have been dusted unique rules to make them work under the Thousand Sons paradigm, you may as well give them a new book.

Would they?

I seem to think of a very easy way to make sergeants of units pyskers.

Mark of Tzeentch/Thousand Sons trait, whichever suits your fancy. Mark of Tzeentch works better probably for that option. Or maybe give some more fluff on what oblits an be, or restrit em, that's what, 1 unit out of a codex? 2 if you go with possessed?

To clarify - rather than make a brand new unit of awesome sculpts for a unique thousand sons heavy support psykers, obliterators with a fluff amendment and some new heads (maybe) is a better idea?

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
Mark of Tzeentch/Thousand Sons trait, whichever suits your fancy. Mark of Tzeentch works better probably for that option. Or maybe give some more fluff on what oblits an be, or restrit em, that's what, 1 unit out of a codex? 2 if you go with possessed?

Let's count them out! All of the following units in Codex: Heretic Astartes would have been reduced to dust by the Rubric of Ahriman:

Chaos Lord
Dark Apostle
Master of Executions
Warpsmith
Exalted Champion
Lord Discordant
Chaos Space Marines
Chosen
Chaos Terminators
Possessed
Mutilators
Chaos Bikers
Chaos Raptors
Warp Talons
Obliterators
Havocs

All of these units are not in the Thousand Sons codex for the very understandable reason of "not existing post-Rubric". I sure hope you feel the same way about the loyalist marine codexes as you do the Thousand Sons, because if any legion needs its own codex its the sons of Magnus.

Most of those units can be dust marines, the only ones I see issues with are:
Chaos Lord
Dark Apostle
Master of Executions
Warpsmith
Exalted Champion
Lord Discordant
Possessed
Warp Talons
Oblits/Muties

Most of these units can be solved by giving them pysker rules, somewhere between Sorcs and Baby marines, through things like the mark of tzeentch. The warp possessed stuff is a bit of an issue but there could easily be some refluffing for them, what about some warp disease that turns them back into marines but it doesn't come without 'mutations', so it doesn't happen en mase, and of course if you didn't want them don't take them.

I definitely think the same of the loyalist legions, and I do agree that if any legion should get a codex it should be the sons of magnus but it doesn't 'need' to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

To clarify - rather than make a brand new unit of awesome sculpts for a unique thousand sons heavy support psykers, obliterators with a fluff amendment and some new heads (maybe) is a better idea?

Is a better idea and what I meant.

Dude, do you even play Chaos? Mark of Tzeentch doesn't make you a psyker, it just gives you the keyword. All of those HQ's would need completely new datasheets to turn them into sorcerers. And I'm actually offended by the idea of the rubric being randomly reversed just so Thousand Sons can take raptors. Play a different legion if you don't actually want to play the Thousand Sons.