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I think it’s a real shame that Death Guard and Thounsand Sons are not represented in Vigilus Ablaze. Would have been pretty cool to get a couple of detachments and maybe a trait or two.

Why I've always said Death Guard and Thousand Sons shouldn't have been separated from the main codex. Apparently they've never heard of Warp Smiths, Havoc Squads or Obliterators.

 Sir Heckington wrote:
Why I've always said Death Guard and Thousand Sons shouldn't have been separated from the main codex. Apparently they've never heard of Warp Smiths, Havoc Squads or Obliterators.

I find it amazingly ironic that all of the special snow flake space marine chapter releases in 8th were given access to everything from the base codex they didn't have access too before. Yet the two special snowflake CSM releases were the exact opposite. I am still a little angry that I no longer have access to Oblits and Havocs I converted up for my 1ksons prior to their codex release.

I continue to not understand the hesitation to simply take a CSM detachment with the <Nurgle> or <Tzeentch> keyword and just use the stuff you want to use.

There are a couple of minor downsides, but not ones which out-do the usefulness of other units. So you can't target them with some spells or stratagems...big deal. No one is stopping you from running <Tzeentch> marked Oblits, etc.

 Elbows wrote:
I continue to not understand the hesitation to simply take a CSM detachment with the <Nurgle> or <Tzeentch> keyword and just use the stuff you want to use.

There are a couple of minor downsides, but not ones which out-do the usefulness of other units. So you can't target them with some spells or stratagems...big deal. No one is stopping you from running <Tzeentch> marked Oblits, etc.

There is no hesitation I do it sometimes. However, not every event allows souping. Also the HQ tax costs points which I could use else where. It is really just the principle of the matter as well. I had a bunch of units that I had access to and now I have to jump through hoops to use the gak I could just take before. Why because FLUFF REASONS I guess meanwhile that super fully 1ksons helbrute is just chilling in my codex which makes all the sense.

 Elbows wrote:
I continue to not understand the hesitation to simply take a CSM detachment with the <Nurgle> or <Tzeentch> keyword and just use the stuff you want to use.

There are a couple of minor downsides, but not ones which out-do the usefulness of other units. So you can't target them with some spells or stratagems...big deal. No one is stopping you from running <Tzeentch> marked Oblits, etc.

Because it's not the same feel. You don't get those tough bois from being nurgle ect. Instead of these codices, they could have had

Mark + Trait Combo.
Mark gives something and some unique god specific wargear (Plauge Weapons)
Trait's become more indepth and give special units, or those special units are easily made out of others with the Mark + Trait.

 Sir Heckington wrote:
Why I've always said Death Guard and Thousand Sons shouldn't have been separated from the main codex. Apparently they've never heard of Warp Smiths, Havoc Squads or Obliterators.

So it's a shame you didn't get new stuff in Vigilus Ablaze? You wish you could have not been separated from the main code so you could get cool stuff now?

But... but... you already got new stuff in your codex?

 Malik_Raynor wrote:
I think it’s a real shame that Death Guard and Thounsand Sons are not represented in Vigilus Ablaze. Would have been pretty cool to get a couple of detachments and maybe a trait or two.

You've got to be realistic with the lore though, you can't just have every army fighting so that we get data cards and I collect deathguard. I'm just glad we are getting so much and I can convert true scale berzerkers.

The Salt Mine wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
Why I've always said Death Guard and Thousand Sons shouldn't have been separated from the main codex. Apparently they've never heard of Warp Smiths, Havoc Squads or Obliterators.

I find it amazingly ironic that all of the special snow flake space marine chapter releases in 8th were given access to everything from the base codex they didn't have access too before. Yet the two special snowflake CSM releases were the exact opposite. I am still a little angry that I no longer have access to Oblits and Havocs I converted up for my 1ksons prior to their codex release.

Weird, I didn't realize as a dark Angel's player I had access to centurions of both kinds, sternguard vets, vanguard vets, and the two flyers, company vets on bikes, ironclad deardnoughts or fallen that aren't in my codex. It's almost like different things are different.

Eh, both Thousand Sons and Death Guard had their time in the sun, with Thousand Sons prominently featuring in a campaign book and Death Guard being the "poster boy villains" of the current starter box.

 Elbows wrote:
I continue to not understand the hesitation to simply take a CSM detachment with the <Nurgle> or <Tzeentch> keyword and just use the stuff you want to use.

True, but it means you have to use (and buy) two codizes now, when you only needed one before. Personally I can live with it, but I understand why others are annoyed.

Thousand Sons probably have the least out of all the legions at this point, but I'm not shy about running Black Legion with them. With the new Havoks i'll likely reduce TS to a scant minority though.

Sure, and I understand the above points, but people present it as: "Thousand Sons cannot take ________". That's not really true. You can run those units in your army, even doll them up with egyptian goodies etc. You can make them easily feel part of the force, you're missing out on very little.

So you have the option of an 80% solution (losing a bit of fluff and access to some strat bonuses) or you whinge about not having a 100% solution. It's not as if you're trying to take Berzerkers in your Thousand Sons army. This is just simply not an issue in my eyes. I run CSM Renegades and lose a lot of options and don't take tons of other options for fluff reasons...but it doesn't mean I can't.

I would understand in a tournament setting run as a single-codex...but in that instance your army still has a heap of stuff the normal CSM doesn't have access too...so it goes both ways.

 Darnok wrote:
Eh, both Thousand Sons and Death Guard had their time in the sun, with Thousand Sons prominently featuring in a campaign book and Death Guard being the "poster boy villains" of the current starter box.

 Elbows wrote:
I continue to not understand the hesitation to simply take a CSM detachment with the <Nurgle> or <Tzeentch> keyword and just use the stuff you want to use.

True, but it means you have to use (and buy) two codizes now, when you only needed one before. Personally I can live with it, but I understand why others are annoyed.

You do realise for a good chunk of the games life a lot of people have "needed" two or more codexes to play their army, right?

Don’t get me wrong. I love that Chaos in general are getting the much deserved attention they need. However, for the game to keep it in ‘good interest’ they really should have had a small segment to allow the use of some detachment. Hopefully, they can be featured in the next campaign some or they get an updated Codex II.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You do realise for a good chunk of the games life a lot of people have "needed" two or more codexes to play their army, right?

I can only remember the case of BA/DA/SW having one codex in second edition and needing the base codex plus their "upgrade codex" in third. What other case(s) was (or were) there of an army that could be played with one codex first and needed two (or even more) later? Because this is the situation we are currently talking about.

I also wonder what armies needed two codizes "for a good chunk of the games life"?

They could just errata them in on release.

 Fifty wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
Why I've always said Death Guard and Thousand Sons shouldn't have been separated from the main codex. Apparently they've never heard of Warp Smiths, Havoc Squads or Obliterators.

So it's a shame you didn't get new stuff in Vigilus Ablaze? You wish you could have not been separated from the main code so you could get cool stuff now?

But... but... you already got new stuff in your codex?

You? No, I don't play TS or Death Guard.

However, they as armies could have gotten the same amount of options AND the stuff now, and other legions could have gotten their own things. TS and DG should have never been separated from the main codex, you can keep the same options and keep them in the main codex, it's just unneeded bloat and causes weird things like no DG/TS Havoc Squads ect.

People say you can take an allied detachment, yes, but you miss out on the rules. That's the important part, +1 T havocs for Nurgle, Havoc Squads with Aspiring Sorcs for TS, ect. ect. All of this are things we could have had easily.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
Sure, and I understand the above points, but people present it as: "Thousand Sons cannot take ________". That's not really true. You can run those units in your army, even doll them up with egyptian goodies etc. You can make them easily feel part of the force, you're missing out on very little.

So you have the option of an 80% solution (losing a bit of fluff and access to some strat bonuses) or you whinge about not having a 100% solution. It's not as if you're trying to take Berzerkers in your Thousand Sons army. This is just simply not an issue in my eyes. I run CSM Renegades and lose a lot of options and don't take tons of other options for fluff reasons...but it doesn't mean I can't.

I would understand in a tournament setting run as a single-codex...but in that instance your army still has a heap of stuff the normal CSM doesn't have access too...so it goes both ways.

You're missing the point.

Mechanics behind fluff. If my guys are nurgle, I want them to be tougher, as is nurgle's way. I want my nurgle units, even the non DG ones, to be tough.
How do you do this?
Marks, +1 toughness, easy peasy, instead of separating them into another codex. They can take X, but X doesn't get their cool unique rules, which they should, and all legions should have those sorts of rules.

 Darnok wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You do realise for a good chunk of the games life a lot of people have "needed" two or more codexes to play their army, right?

I can only remember the case of BA/DA/SW having one codex in second edition and needing the base codex plus their "upgrade codex" in third. What other case(s) was (or were) there of an army that could be played with one codex first and needed two (or even more) later? Because this is the situation we are currently talking about.

I also wonder what armies needed two codizes "for a good chunk of the games life"?

4e/5e pretty much everyone was standalone, the only exception I can think of was the Witch Hunters/Daemonhunters needing the Guard or Marines book to use inducted forces. Needing multiple Codexes to play your army wasn't really a thing until 6e introduced the concept of "supplements" where you had a base Codex and then a supplement that gave you extra special rules, detachments, relics, and warlord traits, and the supplements were generally lateral upgrades that buffed stuff people weren't using.

 Sir Heckington wrote:
People say you can take an allied detachment, yes, but you miss out on the rules. That's the important part, +1 T havocs for Nurgle, Havoc Squads with Aspiring Sorcs for TS, ect. ect. All of this are things we could have had easily.

Going by what happened to generic Lords (etc) in the DG book, don't be so sure they'd get any mechanical changes from the default datasheet.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
People say you can take an allied detachment, yes, but you miss out on the rules. That's the important part, +1 T havocs for Nurgle, Havoc Squads with Aspiring Sorcs for TS, ect. ect. All of this are things we could have had easily.

Going by what happened to generic Lords (etc) in the DG book, don't be so sure they'd get any mechanical changes from the default datasheet.

That's true, however, if the system were based on Marks and more Unique options for the legions applied to base units, it could work much better

Mark of Nurgle (MoN) - +1 Toughness
Disgustingly Resilient (DR) – (Any Mark of Nurgle unit can take) 5+ FNP
Deathguard Trait – Inexorable Advance
Nurgle’s Gift – Warlord Trait of Nurgle
Plauge Weapons
Pestilential Fallout – Nurgle Pysker Unique Rule

Daemon Prince of Nurgle – MoN/DR
Chaos Lord/Lord of Contagion – MoN/DR/Nurgle’s Gift/Plauge Power Scythe
Sorcerer/Malignant Plauge Caster – MoN/DR/Pestilential Fallout/Plauge Weapons
(Generic Name, something with bells)/Blightbringer – MoN/DR/Plauge Weapon


For example, yes that is a lot of unique rules for a single legion, awesome! Give other legions those kinds of rules, You might lose a few special things as DG/TS, but you gain the whole codex and all other CSM players can get more options from ideas of their unique things. I don't think this is the solution everyone wants, but this is what I would want in terms of options.

I was hoping for a new Death Guard Formation for a bit of fun, particularly if it encouraged use of Plague Marines.

Ah well, the Purge stratagem is pretty cool I guess.

snakezenn2 wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
Why I've always said Death Guard and Thousand Sons shouldn't have been separated from the main codex. Apparently they've never heard of Warp Smiths, Havoc Squads or Obliterators.

I find it amazingly ironic that all of the special snow flake space marine chapter releases in 8th were given access to everything from the base codex they didn't have access too before. Yet the two special snowflake CSM releases were the exact opposite. I am still a little angry that I no longer have access to Oblits and Havocs I converted up for my 1ksons prior to their codex release.

Weird, I didn't realize as a dark Angel's player I had access to centurions of both kinds, sternguard vets, vanguard vets, and the two flyers, company vets on bikes, ironclad deardnoughts or fallen that aren't in my codex. It's almost like different things are different.

exactly, obviously the dude has zero clue what is actually in those special "snowflake" codices.

Blood Angels weep for they cannot take Lord Adorable's brethren.

 Sir Heckington wrote:

 Fifty wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
Why I've always said Death Guard and Thousand Sons shouldn't have been separated from the main codex. Apparently they've never heard of Warp Smiths, Havoc Squads or Obliterators.

So it's a shame you didn't get new stuff in Vigilus Ablaze? You wish you could have not been separated from the main code so you could get cool stuff now?

But... but... you already got new stuff in your codex?

You? No, I don't play TS or Death Guard.

However, they as armies could have gotten the same amount of options AND the stuff now, and other legions could have gotten their own things. TS and DG should have never been separated from the main codex, you can keep the same options and keep them in the main codex, it's just unneeded bloat and causes weird things like no DG/TS Havoc Squads ect.

People say you can take an allied detachment, yes, but you miss out on the rules. That's the important part, +1 T havocs for Nurgle, Havoc Squads with Aspiring Sorcs for TS, ect. ect. All of this are things we could have had easily.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
Sure, and I understand the above points, but people present it as: "Thousand Sons cannot take ________". That's not really true. You can run those units in your army, even doll them up with egyptian goodies etc. You can make them easily feel part of the force, you're missing out on very little.

So you have the option of an 80% solution (losing a bit of fluff and access to some strat bonuses) or you whinge about not having a 100% solution. It's not as if you're trying to take Berzerkers in your Thousand Sons army. This is just simply not an issue in my eyes. I run CSM Renegades and lose a lot of options and don't take tons of other options for fluff reasons...but it doesn't mean I can't.

I would understand in a tournament setting run as a single-codex...but in that instance your army still has a heap of stuff the normal CSM doesn't have access too...so it goes both ways.

You're missing the point.

Mechanics behind fluff. If my guys are nurgle, I want them to be tougher, as is nurgle's way. I want my nurgle units, even the non DG ones, to be tough.
How do you do this?
Marks, +1 toughness, easy peasy, instead of separating them into another codex. They can take X, but X doesn't get their cool unique rules, which they should, and all legions should have those sorts of rules.

Not missing the point at all. People have argued the <MARK OF CHAOS> thing to death...so why bring it up now? I said above, you get an 80% solution...use it and move on. If you want to keep whinging into the wind, then by all means - proceed.

 Elbows wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:

 Fifty wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
Why I've always said Death Guard and Thousand Sons shouldn't have been separated from the main codex. Apparently they've never heard of Warp Smiths, Havoc Squads or Obliterators.

So it's a shame you didn't get new stuff in Vigilus Ablaze? You wish you could have not been separated from the main code so you could get cool stuff now?

But... but... you already got new stuff in your codex?

You? No, I don't play TS or Death Guard.

However, they as armies could have gotten the same amount of options AND the stuff now, and other legions could have gotten their own things. TS and DG should have never been separated from the main codex, you can keep the same options and keep them in the main codex, it's just unneeded bloat and causes weird things like no DG/TS Havoc Squads ect.

People say you can take an allied detachment, yes, but you miss out on the rules. That's the important part, +1 T havocs for Nurgle, Havoc Squads with Aspiring Sorcs for TS, ect. ect. All of this are things we could have had easily.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
Sure, and I understand the above points, but people present it as: "Thousand Sons cannot take ________". That's not really true. You can run those units in your army, even doll them up with egyptian goodies etc. You can make them easily feel part of the force, you're missing out on very little.

So you have the option of an 80% solution (losing a bit of fluff and access to some strat bonuses) or you whinge about not having a 100% solution. It's not as if you're trying to take Berzerkers in your Thousand Sons army. This is just simply not an issue in my eyes. I run CSM Renegades and lose a lot of options and don't take tons of other options for fluff reasons...but it doesn't mean I can't.

I would understand in a tournament setting run as a single-codex...but in that instance your army still has a heap of stuff the normal CSM doesn't have access too...so it goes both ways.

You're missing the point.

Mechanics behind fluff. If my guys are nurgle, I want them to be tougher, as is nurgle's way. I want my nurgle units, even the non DG ones, to be tough.
How do you do this?
Marks, +1 toughness, easy peasy, instead of separating them into another codex. They can take X, but X doesn't get their cool unique rules, which they should, and all legions should have those sorts of rules.

Not missing the point at all. People have argued the <MARK OF CHAOS> thing to death...so why bring it up now? I said above, you get an 80% solution...use it and move on. If you want to keep whinging into the wind, then by all means - proceed.

I mean, discussing other solutions isn't really whining, but okay. I was bringing up the fact that you get like, a 50% solution. There is little mechanics behind the fluff, which is a big part of it for me, not for everyone of course.

Since sixth it's been pretty standard to have at least 2 books to have the full rules for a given army. That's not even counting FW back in the day that had a ton of supplemental units and rules for every army spread across numerous books.

It comes down to how you view an army. Some are fine with just the codex and ignore the rest. I personally view that unless I own every source of potential rules for my given factions, then I don't have a complete rule set for my army.

When GW decides to spread those rules over many different sources, it can be frustrating.

It was not lost on me, when the Deathguard got their amazing reboot, that GW effectively removed all of the most popular options for Nurgle that had existed previously. So, goodbye to Deathguard Oblits, goodbye to Nurgle bikers, at least for Deathguard. No big deal to me, the new models are wonderful, but I imagine if I had a collection of DG bikers and oblits I’d be annoyed...

I'm ok with Death Guard not getting all the new stuff. There are fluff reasons to not have havocs or obliterators in the death guard, since Mortarion thinks heavy weapons should not be carried around by infantry - our special plague spore daemon engines reflect that properly. We don't have warp smiths, so we shouldn't have a warp smith riding some daemon engine either.

I still would have liked to get those greater possessed, since we did get regular possessed

The detachments from the previous vigilus book are more about fun and thematic armies than about adding power to codices. Not being part of the fun sucks.

We do benefit from the stargate though, I guess that's something.

T.Sons are most likely the guys who get the worse deal out of the new codexes. Unlike Death guard, who had a million new units with unique feel and rules, Sons got rubrics + scarabs, an import of goats from AoS and, because they were not enough to fill the pages, they were left with all the old nobody-uses-me-anymore units like preadators, vindicators, land raiders and the generic daemon engines, all of which have absolutely zero synergy with thousand sons.

Additionally, since the lore of change (the T.Sons specific lore) can only buff <THOUSAND SONS> units, this already makes it awkward to play any of the new stuff. I mean, I still will play them, but it won't be the same.

Ultimately the Thousand Sons are left with their standard supreme command detachment of Ahriman on Disc + 2 Daemon Princes, brought in to supplement daemon armies or to buff whichever new hotness the CSM codex will bring. Their legion trait doesn't help around it either, being the single trait in ANY codex that buffs the least models possible from the army, giving you no incentive to play anything else than just characters.

In all honesty, given that havocs are T5 already, if they were allowed for DG itwould make them T6. Which is insane on basic infantry. While I realize that’s only a single unit, it would be a pretty big deal. I think GW went with “what is fair on the table” more than “what was allowed in a single army back in the day before we fleshed this army out to be its own thing”. I collect Chaos and I’m completely unbothered by this.