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topaxygouroun i wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's hard to feel bad for 5 pt models. 5 pt models shouldnt get special traits or have good buff options to begin with. Being cheap shouldnt be all upside.

What about 4ppm models that are strictly better?

A bad argument when many people have advocated for Guardsman to be 5 pts for ages now. The problem isn't the people complaining, its GW keeping Guard at 4 points.

Comparing units X, Y and Z from different codexes and different points in an edition shows just how arbitrary GW's pricing of units is.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Commissar Benny wrote:
Doesn't Chaos have access to tide of traitors/aka free models still? Its one of the best stratagems in the game. Guard doesn't have access to that. What more do you want?

Send in the Next Wave? Which is also 2CP and not limited to once a game?
It isn't like Valhalla is a bad army either.

FYI: SITNW requires reinforcement points.

As a marine player i just can't. I pay 13+ for pure crap. Take your cheap wounds and be happy. I have none.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's hard to feel bad for 5 pt models. 5 pt models shouldnt get special traits or have good buff options to begin with. Being cheap shouldnt be all upside.

What about 4ppm models that are strictly better?

A bad argument when many people have advocated for Guardsman to be 5 pts for ages now. The problem isn't the people complaining, its GW keeping Guard at 4 points.

Comparing units X, Y and Z from different codexes and different points in an edition shows just how arbitrary GW's pricing of units is.

They need to be 6 ppm now.

Removing Legion traits is actually okay with me, but 5ppm is just the REMOVED GW Tourney-meta dance claiming another innocent casualty.

Please do not circumvent the language filter - BrookM

Infantry Squads need to be bumped up to 6ppm, or 5ppm and commanders up to 40ppm.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Infantry Squads need to be bumped up to 6ppm, or 5ppm and commanders up to 40ppm.

Veterans probably need to go back up to 6ppm as well. They're absurd at 5ppm, the only saving grace being their lack of obsec. Commanders should probably be 40ppm, Guardsmen at 5ppm and Veterans at 6ppm.

But, as mentioned, this argument will get no traction with Guard players who would rather reboot the entire edition rather than pay extra for these units.

I don't enjoy using cultists anyway (I have some modeled up). I'm glad they got nerfed, but the reality is they simply should be flip-flopped with Guard as has been mentioned numerous times.

Put them to 4 points, put Guard to 5...and if you want to extra-hammer cultists, remove their ability to take Veterans of the Long War etc. (basically GW "fixed" the wrong issue with Cultists).

Most CSM units are balanced around the maximum *potential* that a unit can have without realizing that in most games only 1 unit in your entire army will ever have a chance of reaching that maximum potential via strats and psychic and 5 different buffing characters.

"Of course cultists should be 5pts, everyone will give them prayer buffs, abaddon babysitting, VOTLW and 3 different psychic powers right?"

"Of course Daemon engines are WS4+, if you daemonforge them, prescience them, warptime them, diabolical strength them they might actually kill 10 guardsmen in one combat"

And apply the above statements to most units in the book

 Continuity wrote:
Most CSM units are balanced around the maximum *potential* that a unit can have without realizing that in most games only 1 unit in your entire army will ever have a chance of reaching that maximum potential via strats and psychic and 5 different buffing characters.

"Of course cultists should be 5pts, everyone will give them prayer buffs, abaddon babysitting, VOTLW and 3 different psychic powers right?"

"Of course Daemon engines are WS4+, if you daemonforge them, prescience them, warptime them, diabolical strength them they might actually kill 10 guardsmen in one combat"

And apply the above statements to most units in the book

That seems to be how GW balances things. They include the potential stratagems and buffs that you can use as part of the underlying balance.

Wayniac wrote:

 Continuity wrote:
Most CSM units are balanced around the maximum *potential* that a unit can have without realizing that in most games only 1 unit in your entire army will ever have a chance of reaching that maximum potential via strats and psychic and 5 different buffing characters.

"Of course cultists should be 5pts, everyone will give them prayer buffs, abaddon babysitting, VOTLW and 3 different psychic powers right?"

"Of course Daemon engines are WS4+, if you daemonforge them, prescience them, warptime them, diabolical strength them they might actually kill 10 guardsmen in one combat"

And apply the above statements to most units in the book

That seems to be how GW balances things. They include the potential stratagems and buffs that you can use as part of the underlying balance.

Exactly. Units should not be priced about buffers and Strategems. Buffers and Strategems need to be priced around units.

Which is an insane way to balance anything and a reason I'm starting to think that Strats and everyone getting faction traits (something I liked at the start of the edition) are starting to become as big of a cancer as formations were last edition. Combine that with all kinds of auras being handed out like candy and properly costing a unit seems nearly impossible to me.

okay... interesting argument forming and I think the solution is clearer than people think.

with the amount and time of effort GW have put into the miniatures for the blackstone fortress game; continued soon with the release of the commissar and ogryn, I could potentially see a traitor guard mini-dex, or revamped rengades and heretics book on the horizon.


you get a 7 man squad of guardsmen with varied equipment for 35pts.... not saying it good; but its not too shabby either.


If GW changed the keywords on traitor guardsmen but maintained the 2 per army limitation (which I hate with a vengeance) -you'd end up with chaos players running 2x7 guardsmen as troops alongside the new hotness Csm as their 3 minimum troops for a battalion, at least in smaller games that aren't tournaments...


if there is a renegade guard book on the horizon, and a new release for chaos space marines out now... could we be looking at an incentive to strip away cultists into another sub-faction?


GamerGuy

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Infantry Squads need to be bumped up to 6ppm, or 5ppm and commanders up to 40ppm.

Veterans probably need to go back up to 6ppm as well. They're absurd at 5ppm, the only saving grace being their lack of obsec. Commanders should probably be 40ppm, Guardsmen at 5ppm and Veterans at 6ppm.

But, as mentioned, this argument will get no traction with Guard players who would rather reboot the entire edition rather than pay extra for these units.

Yes but if you use Remule logic. The 5 point veterans can't possible be undercosted because guard players don't use them. It can't be because 4 points infantry are just better. LOL.

 GamerGuy wrote:
okay... interesting argument forming and I think the solution is clearer than people think.

with the amount and time of effort GW have put into the miniatures for the blackstone fortress game; continued soon with the release of the commissar and ogryn, I could potentially see a traitor guard mini-dex, or revamped rengades and heretics book on the horizon.


you get a 7 man squad of guardsmen with varied equipment for 35pts.... not saying it good; but its not too shabby either.


If GW changed the keywords on traitor guardsmen but maintained the 2 per army limitation (which I hate with a vengeance) -you'd end up with chaos players running 2x7 guardsmen as troops alongside the new hotness Csm as their 3 minimum troops for a battalion, at least in smaller games that aren't tournaments...


if there is a renegade guard book on the horizon, and a new release for chaos space marines out now... could we be looking at an incentive to strip away cultists into another sub-faction?


GamerGuy

Vigilus lists "Hereticus Militarum" in the participating forces during the battles. It's all but a given in the near future.

Martel732 wrote:
As a marine player i just can't. I pay 13+ for pure crap. Take your cheap wounds and be happy. I have none.

Scouts with Concealed Positions are 11p each. They are not cheap still.

 Continuity wrote:


"Of course Daemon engines are WS4+, if you daemonforge them, prescience them, warptime them, diabolical strength them they might actually kill 10 guardsmen in one combat"

"waaah, I shot my lascannon at a guardsman squad and it only killed ONE how ridiculously broken terribad is that???"

My defiler is S16/S12 with D6/3 damage on its weapons.

I HOPE it underperforms against infantry-tier chaff models. Because if it didn't, imagine what that fething thing would do to a tank!

They are still a horde unit that can be buffed and made immune to moral. They can still shoot twice and still can ride of traitors. They now have a formation and new Apostle buffs. I think cultists will be fine and still the go to choice.

Hereticus Militarum with their Fallen overlords would be so thematic.

Cultists without legion traits and 5ppm? I think R&H looks slightly better now. Barely.

If the issue is people using Cultists as a cheap troop choice...

why not fix that by making them no longer a troop choice in CSM, maybe an Elite or Fast Attack choice? something else so they can stay cheap but become "as well as" not "instead of"?

They are cheap. They are 5 ppm.

leopard wrote:
If the issue is people using Cultists as a cheap troop choice...

why not fix that by making them no longer a troop choice in CSM, maybe an Elite or Fast Attack choice? something else so they can stay cheap but become "as well as" not "instead of"?

Or just a Troop choice that doesn't take up a slot? They retain ObSec (or whatever it is called) but you still have to take other Troop choices to fill out detachments.

Tyranid infantry would really like to talk about being overcosted.

A hormagaunt is 5 points and doesn't even have a gun. 2 str 3 attacking in CC with a 6+ save. They have a special pile in move you never get to use because they are dead. THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE A GUN.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Tyranid infantry would really like to talk about being overcosted.

A hormagaunt is 5 points and doesn't even have a gun. 2 str 3 attacking in CC with a 6+ save. They have a special pile in move you never get to use because they are dead. THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE A GUN.

On the flip side, they are normally immune to morale, which probably accounts for that cost. (See : poxwalkers)

At the moment I have to agree with the sentiment that Guardsmen are under costed. With <Regiment> and Orders they should be at least 6 points per model.

It's all crap. We can talk about what 'should' be priced at what point level, but the bottom line is that if you change a cost at this low of a level, it makes everything else more expensive in the game, which means smaller armies, which means less sales.

GW is trying to push cultists out of the view of Chaos Marine players so they'll buy the new Chaos Marines. The Red Corsairs tactic is all you need as proof. "Oh, competitive players want a CP battery... so we'll make it so they can do that with Chaos Marines! All set!" Boom, done, cultists now have less of a role to play.

To be honest, I'm fine with that. The only way to buy cultists through GW is in that 5-man box that has 3 ranged weapons and 2 melee, and nobody wants the ranged weapons. It's a crap box. They've needed their own multi-part box since 6th edition, but why am I fine with that? I hate cultists. I hate that they were added to the Chaos Marine army. The more they're nerfed, the better, to me.

I want my Chaos Marine army to have MARINES. The problem I see is less a problem with cultists and more a problem with 1 wound, 1 attack power armor models.

 oni wrote:
At the moment I have to agree with the sentiment that Guardsmen are under costed. With <Regiment> and Orders they should be at least 6 points per model.

People whined and moaned about Conscripts to the point of getting them bumped up to 4ppm. 5ppm Cultists is on their heads.

 oni wrote:
At the moment I have to agree with the sentiment that Guardsmen are under costed. With <Regiment> and Orders they should be at least 6 points per model.

The cost of Voice Of Command should be tied up in the officer(s), but I agree that <Regiment> shouldn't be free.
10 guardsmen is unarguably better than 10 cultists; better weapon options, armour, unit traits and leadership for a point less. But then I guess if all you wanted was a 'disloyal 32' you've still got R&H mutants, who can field a battalion (fractionally) cheaper than the astra militarum.


There is a detectable value to bigger squads - which is why conscripts cost the same per man as full guardsmen despite being worse, since you get more bang for your buck throwing stratagems or support characters at a 30-man unit.

I guess the question is, is a 30-man cultist (WS/BS 4+, SV 6+, no traits, flamer/stubber options) unit better enough than a 30-man conscript unit (WS/BS 5+, SV 5+, <Regiment>, grenades) to warrant costing more?

I agree about the traitor guard stuff, by the way. Traitor Guard, Beastmen, Negavoltists and Rogue Psykers are nice units (I love the little touch of the 'one guy with krak grenades' as an elegant 'special weapon') and it's really annoying that they're "you may only take one/two of these units". The chaos ogryn and commissar look really good, and throwing in cultists and making a new lost and the damned codex would be awesome.

 inirlan wrote:
Cultists without legion traits and 5ppm? I think R&H looks slightly better now. Barely.

did you really play cultists for legion traits (in particular black legion)? you took them cause they are an horde rerolling anything to hit and immune to morale, who care of bl traits? maybe alpha legion but for the rest no one cared of legion traits.

locarno24 wrote:

 oni wrote:
At the moment I have to agree with the sentiment that Guardsmen are under costed. With <Regiment> and Orders they should be at least 6 points per model.

The cost of Voice Of Command should be tied up in the officer(s), but I agree that <Regiment> shouldn't be free.

So how many points per model should Marines be paying for a -1 to be hit?

And "the cost of Voice of Command" IS tied up in the Officers. We're talking about 5W with a 5+/5++ save and a Laspistol for 30ppm on the HQs.

You want higher priced Officers? I want actual wargear that frigging matters. I want to buy Artillery Strikes, I want to buy Sniper Rifles, I want to buy a fricking Baneblade for 'em.

10 guardsmen is unarguably better than 10 cultists; better weapon options, armour, unit traits and leadership for a point less. But then I guess if all you wanted was a 'disloyal 32' you've still got R&H mutants, who can field a battalion (fractionally) cheaper than the astra militarum.

And what unit traits are those again?

Yeah, we get "better weapon options". We also are static for the amount of those weapons--2 models become a HWT, 1 can take a Special. I have to burn Command Points to get squad sizes higher than 10.

There is a detectable value to bigger squads - which is why conscripts cost the same per man as full guardsmen despite being worse, since you get more bang for your buck throwing stratagems or support characters at a 30-man unit.

Not even remotely true. The price bump was because of Conscript blobs that got made "fearless" by Commissars. Both of those are absolutely 100% nerfed now.

I guess the question is, is a 30-man cultist (WS/BS 4+, SV 6+, no traits, flamer/stubber options) unit better enough than a 30-man conscript unit (WS/BS 5+, SV 5+, <Regiment>, grenades) to warrant costing more?

Conscripts never should have been given a 5+ save or the <Regiment> trait. This keeps getting brought up by the whiners but I think you would be hardpressed to find Guard players who will not agree that the Conscript profile as it stands is okay.

And BTW:
Conscripts, at 4ppm, are also the only unit that can't receive Orders with no dice roll necessary. "Raw Recruits" means you need to roll a 4+ to have an Order successfully issued--if you fail, it doesn't work.

They literally just made it more complicated to do than removing the <Regiment> tag. They could have fixed one of the big boogeymen issues of early 8th("FRFSRF Conscripts wiped out my army! OMG OP!") with that one simple thing of removing the <Regiment> bit or replacing it with "Auxilia"(no Orders to Auxilia units).