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 Bobthehero wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Some make them good tanks and good infantry, don't penalize those who don't field Leman Russes.

I get penalized for everything because marines. No sympathy. No mercy. Something has to give with ig.

IG even punch better and im fething blood angels.

My Guardsmen don't, no acess to Straken or STR 4, either

But you hit equally as good, that is unaceptable.

Trot out bullgryns and beat every ba list ever.

 Bobthehero wrote:
My Guardsmen don't, no acess to Straken or STR 4, either

Effectively ignoring morale outside of assault seems pretty good for a gunline, unless I'm completely misunderstanding how Cult of Sacrifice works. Your commanders are cheaper also.

Really not seeing the Krieg distinction here.

I play both CSMs and Guard, have for most editions of this game's existence.

Cultists got a raw deal. The constant hyperbole with basic putz Guardsmen is...more than a wee bit silly however.

No, despite being easy to say on an anonymous web forum, nobody is actually going to run naked guardsmen without guns or orders or doctrines and think they're just fine. Guardsmen are not 6 or 7pt models and the last time they were in that range IG were basically the worst army in the game. They'll probably go to 5pts at some point, and I'm not gonna cry myself to sleep over it, but some of the apoplectic assertions here really aren't helping. We're definitely not at 7E scatterbike "we toss out 40 shots a turn that wound almost all infantry on 2's and can glance almost any vehicle to death from across the board with the best mobility in the game and hide behind terrain after shooting with a jet move and sport a Space Marine save and Jink" broken.

Yeah, there's stuff in the IG codex that needs addressing. Tank Commanders are absurdly undercosted, Shadowswords are overgunned, the Catachan doctrine bonuses are both overcapable and not entirely appropriate for the faction, while half the book never sees the table and many units are basically nonfunctional (e.g. Vanquisher, Deathstrike). Ultimately however, little of that is particularly relevant to Cultists.

Yeah Cultists compare poorly with Guardsmen in a straight up comparison. I also don't think Cultists should cost as much as they do. At the same time, the putz Guardsmen is the centerpiece Troops unit of the IG army, Cultists are not and have never been intended to be, just as Conscripts are not and were not intended to be for IG, Chaos Space Marines are supposed to be the centerpiece troop unit of the CSM army. I think this was GW's thinking with the changes, as opposed to directly attempting to balance Cultists against similar units from other armies. The bigger picture issue however is that basic Marine paradigm that the CSM book is built around doesn't function as it once did, and that has caused issues for all MEQ armies. This isn't the fault of IG, or any other one army, the basic game mechanics have changed in a way that GW hasn't bothered to account for and in many ways GW has simply allowed game bloat to overtake what once made Marines unique (e.g. Custodes and Knights redefining elite and durable multirole armies). Most other factions haven't developed the same issues in the same way.

All things considered, as a CSM player, Cultists are near the bottom of my concerns for the army. There are bigger issues that are much more relevant to the army as a whole, and a lot more units in need of greater assistance than Cultists. I'd much rather have my Chaos Marines doing their actual job rather than stew over Cultists not being as quite good as Guardsmen.

The points granularity once we start talking 4/5pt models is also an issue, one thag may make perfectly balancing such units difficult no matter what, and GW doesn't like changing their points scale or dealing with half points or anything else to accommodate that, while firepower has also grown to the point that quite often what's being thrown about doesnt care if you're a Terminator or a Grot, if you're not a Superheavy or Custodian you're dead either way, making comparisons between very broad spectrums of units hard to judge. Trying to balance between Cultists and Guardsmen yields a lot more room to account for differences than trying to balance Cultists, Guardsmen, Marines, Custodes, and Knights together.

The game has developed a scale issue over the last few editions and has done little to address it.

I use naked guardsmen with a single order for 3 squads. Still the best 4 pts in the game. And id pay 6, because thats still half a scout.

Its about perspective and many ig players have none.

I can see your point, though.

Their commanders are more expensive (+7 pts for company, +3 pts for platoon), they just have their platoon commander equivalent as an HQ instead of elites. My point is if you crank up the price for normal Guardsmen there will be a point where Kriegers won't be worth the extra pts they cost.

3/4 of my codex is unusable, but we cant balance guardsmen because some obscure side faction might only be a side grade?

And a big reason my units are unusable is because guardsmen beat me by existing.

Why is your side faction more important than mine?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
So if Guardsmen are 6ppm, would Kriegsmen go up to 7ppm? Firewarrior price, really?

Firewarriors are clearly the next most undercosted unit after infantry. They need to go up. Plus a Kriegsmen is not an official codex yet. Lets focus on the real stuff. Infantry 6/ Vets 7/ khabs+ firewarriors to 8.

FW is as official as your marines, you realize that right?

What I think he means is that, since they're still not out of their Index stage, we should focus on the armies that aren't dealing with that issue.

I could be mistaken but I think that's what they meant.

Yes thank you - that is exactly what I meant.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Why is your side faction more important than mine?

It's not. But most of it is patently unusable. Your stuff might not be elite anymore. See the difference? Your current models win during the setup phase and i have no input or hope of victory. The situations are very different.

Also just make krieg guys 6 pts like everyone else would be. There you are special again, but the situation is still improved.

Martel732 wrote:
Trot out bullgryns and beat every ba list ever.

Now you're just being ridiculous.

You go try to kill those things with ba. I dare you.

And for that matter, Krieg can't field Bullgryns so its a useless retord to my point

I get penalized for everything because marines. No sympathy. No mercy. Something has to give with ig.

we have all played with substandard units through the sheer love of playing with those units. Many of us playing with those units over many many editions. But having that attitude is not conducive to an environment that would Foster some type of solution. And honestly it only hurts your position from a "take me serious" view.

Personally I think five points with a bit of a point increase to the platoon commanders and regular commanders would really go a step in the right direction but you can't go higher because then they are way too close to units that are much much better than them like the simple Ranger which is still itself not considered very good.

You think orders and regimental bonuses make regular Imperial Guard better than cultist could you imagine only one point difference between 4 + armor, 3 + to hit, canticles and a 6+ invun with a better gun with 4 strength and longer range and has a chance to get - 1 ap.

 Bobthehero wrote:
And for that matter, Krieg can't field Bullgryns so its a useless retord to my point

I don't know anything about them. I know nothing about Krieg. Never seen them, actually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Des702 wrote:

I get penalized for everything because marines. No sympathy. No mercy. Something has to give with ig.

we have all played with substandard units through the sheer love of playing with those units. Many of us playing with those units over many many editions. But having that attitude is not conducive to an environment that would Foster some type of solution. And honestly it only hurts your position from a "take me serious" view.

Personally I think five points with a bit of a point increase to the platoon commanders and regular commanders would really go a step in the right direction but you can't go higher because then they are way too close to units that are much much better than them like the simple Ranger which is still itself not considered very good.

You think orders and regimental bonuses make regular Imperial Guard better than cultist could you imagine only one point difference between 4 + armor, 3 + to hit, canticles and a 6+ invun with a better gun with 4 strength and longer range and has a chance to get - 1 ap.

I don't care if you take me seriously, because I don't think GW is going to do any of this.

Something is obviously better than nothing. But why do we keep giving the guardsmen the benefit of the doubt? It can't be 6 because it's too close to a ranger? Well, it can't be 5 because of grots and cultists. So yeah, maybe make it closer the ranger and make it far less of a powerhouse unit. Maybe even a bit.. subpar.

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
To be honest, why not make IS, Cultists, and gaunts 6PPM. Weight of dice is a real problem and increasing cost across the board would help.

Slight knock on effect are MeQ's don't look so poor in comparison. (Yes I would hate my termagants being 6 pts at first, but really anything with a gun and is cheap needs to be around that level, keep hormagants are 5 since the likelihood of them even getting in CC is a crapshoot)

Except weight of fire isn't actually a problem
At currently, if there's a full squad of marines (130pts) vs 3 squads of IS (120 pts), at 24"
The Guardsman squads, assuming they're all in range and no los blocking, will on average, kill 1.5 marines or 19.5 points (or since you can't do half a wound, 13 or 26 pts)
(27 lasgun shots, BS 4+, S 3 vs T 4, SV 3+ (27*1/2*1/3*1/3))
The Space marines, using Bolter Discipline and assuming they're also all in range/no LOS blocking, get 5.3R kills on average for (20 or 24 pts), followed by losing more to morale. Moarle is hard to math, but on average (all possible outcomes divided by number of outcomes) it's 1.6R for a total of 7 dead guarsmen on average (28 pts)
(18 bolt rounds, BS 3+, S 4 vs T 3, S 5+, Ld 7 (18*2/3*2/3*4/6+(0+0+1+2+3+4)/6)

Space marines do slight better on average for 10 points more, but not exactly exactly impressive all around. And yes, the guardsman do way better at 12", but with the introduction of Bolter Discipline space marines don't need to be at half range to get max damage

At 6 points, the guardsmen kill 1 marine on average, and marines kill the same amount (so 13 pts on average vs 42 points). The guardsmen can't even break even at 12", and then the space marines move forward, shoot their bolters, and then assault to finish off what's left.

How does this relate to cultist being 5 pts? Simple answer is that they shouldn't be. I can understand the logic that GW wants Chaos Space Marines to focus on the marines, but if they want cultist to take a more of a support role they should have at least gotten something to make them more support-y rather than a flat nerf, basing the price of a unit on what buffs they get is dumb because this it become required to use that buff to make it useful and you end up with canned synergy (or at worse, skornergy).

I think part of the reason Cultus pay more is because they're not the default troop of the army. Looking at units in a vacuum doesn't always give you the reason why they cost so much like Imperial Guard have better orders and regimental bonuses. The cultist have way better strategies and auras. Guard doesn't get auras they have to do individual commands. Honestly I think the two are close enough fit they should probably be priced the same.are guard squads better possibly but not enough to justify being an additional point more.

Also if we change Rangers then we have to change Vanguard then we have to change all the Guardians then we have to change tau and we have to change dark eldar that may have to change a bunch of the tyranid troops like the hormagaunts and termagaunts. Seriously if you love space Marine so much then why don't you push for space Marines to be changed instead.

Des702 wrote:
I think part of the reason Cultus pay more is because they're not the default troop of the army. Looking at units in a vacuum doesn't always give you the reason why they cost so much like Imperial Guard have better orders and regimental bonuses. The cultist have way better strategies and auras. Guard doesn't get auras they have to do individual commands. Honestly I think the two are close enough fit they should probably be priced the same.are guard squads better possibly but not enough to justify being an additional point more.

Also if we change Rangers then we have to change Vanguard then we have to change all the Guardians then we have to change tau and we have to change dark eldar that may have to change a bunch of the tyranid troops like the hormagaunts and termagaunts. Seriously if you love space Marine so much then why don't you push for space Marines to be changed instead.

The issue is IS have been and without serious nerfing remain worth atleast 5ppm .
Cultists probably were worth 5ppm but they got moved to 5 and then are apparently loosing traits the -1 to hit and if it's the keyword aswell there will be other interactions that are effected.

Marines are over priced have been from the very start but making cultist 5 even 6 ppm just changes choas from having a chance using cultists to lossing harder with cultists or the still overcosted marines.

The issue is GW is seeing a problem choas armies only use cultist and rather than taking the time to ask why, they just went swinging the nerf bat wildly. 13 point marines arn't good, regardless of what cultists cost, it just at what points for cultists do 13 point marine's become the least worst option

Martel732 wrote:
You go try to kill those things with ba. I dare you.

Hitting 98%, wounding 83% and killing for any failed save with a smash captain with 7 attacks? He'll kill his points back easily. And it's not like you have to send him in by himself against a unit 3 times his cost.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
My Guardsmen don't, no acess to Straken or STR 4, either

Effectively ignoring morale outside of assault seems pretty good for a gunline, unless I'm completely misunderstanding how Cult of Sacrifice works. Your commanders are cheaper also.

Really not seeing the Krieg distinction here.

Krieg infantry are odd, and I think provide a good glimpse as to what exactly the problem is with regular Infantry.

Cult of Sacrifice, effectively their doctrine, means Kriegers ignore morale outside of assault. They also get krak grenades and WS3+, but they don't get FRFSRF or Take Aim, and cost 5ppm. So they lose two of the most useful orders and pay an extra point per model, and so in spite of their collection of minor bonuses and fairly useful doctrine they don't see all that much play.

So, if you raised the cost of the regular Infantry Squad to 5ppm, nerfed FRFSRF and MMM (say, FRFSRF gives you +1 shot, and MMM just lets you take an auto-6 to Advance), tweaked the doctrines (eg Catachan should be WS3+, not S4), and most importantly nerfed CP batteries in some fashion, then I think you'd see a lot fewer Infantry Squads on the tabletop. Taking them to 6+ points seems an overreaction that doesn't really address the specific factors, while excessively punishing the players with the less-performant regiments.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You go try to kill those things with ba. I dare you.

Hitting 98%, wounding 83% and killing for any failed save with a smash captain with 7 attacks? He'll kill his points back easily. And it's not like you have to send him in by himself against a unit 3 times his cost.

That math is incorrect. Try non-smash vs bullgryns. Good luck.

Has anyone ever looked at the math if Catachans had the Avalanche of Muscle rule that Bullgryns have instead of strength 4? That sounds way more thematic.

On the issue of Krieg units, it should be noted that GW/FW have largely gone out of their way to make them distinctly subpar for the entire history of the model line going back to 4E where IG were about as bottom barrel as they come. They've always had higher costs than basic codex infantry, and had fewer options and upgrades, largely just for WS4 which has always been almost entirely cosmetic.

GW/FW has always seen to it that *the* archetypal attritional guard army is the least capable of executing that particular playstyle

I stopped trying to use the actual DKoK rules for my DKoK army a loooooong time ago. Given that the main studio is apparently responsible for FW rules now and the fact that they've done largely nothing with them for most stuff since the Index books, coupled with the shrinking DKoK model line, leads me to believe that the Krieg line is essentially on the slowroad to Squatsville.

Is not like a BA captain will charge Bullgryns when they are screened by 80 angry catachan dudes with Harken behind.

So if your problems with catachan why don't we just change the catachan rules.

When you start pilling up things to change you realise a good bunch of the IG codex needs to change because it is too powerfull.

Yeah yeah I know chimeras and veterans suck, Deathstrike missiles are a meme unit, etc, etc... nobody says that bad units shouldn't be buffed.

Des702 wrote:
So if your problems with catachan why don't we just change the catachan rules.

Because 80 valhallans block smash just as well.

Martel732 wrote:

Des702 wrote:
So if your problems with catachan why don't we just change the catachan rules.

Because 80 valhallans block smash just as well.

Because 80 valhallans shouldn't block Smash?
Because Smash ain't a problem himself when Cp gets involved?

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know anything about them. I know nothing about Krieg. Never seen them, actually.

They're a really natty army, actually. very fun to play - and frankly they are a 'full codex' army - there are no DEATH KORPS relics, warlord traits or stratagems, but the generic ASTRA MILITARUM ones work fine, and the army even has it's own unique special character in the form of Marshall "That Was A Lascannon, Was It?" Karis Venner, who's a sort of combination of a lord commissar and a bargain-basement Creed.

They have a lot of drawbacks compared to 'proper' militarum - no heavy weapons in infantry squads, no Take Aim! order, no conscripts (well....nothing stops you declaring conscripts to be DEATH KORPS but Cult of Sacrifice isn't a regimental doctrine so 'normal' units don't get it), quite a few stratagems don't work because the 'equivalent' unit has a different keyword name. Their unique units are very cool, though, and Death Riders hit like a freaking brick.

catbarf wrote:

Krieg infantry are odd, and I think provide a good glimpse as to what exactly the problem is with regular Infantry.

Cult of Sacrifice, effectively their doctrine, means Kriegers ignore morale outside of assault. They also get krak grenades and WS3+, but they don't get FRFSRF or Take Aim, and cost 5ppm. So they lose two of the most useful orders and pay an extra point per model, and so in spite of their collection of minor bonuses and fairly useful doctrine they don't see all that much play.

Just as an observation - they don't get Front Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire! (lasguns become rapid fire 2) but they do get Without Mercy (lasguns become pistol 2). That gives them the exact same performance at 12"-24", and whilst they don't get the 2"-12" zone of 4-shot death, they can double tap in combat which is a nasty shock if you're not expecting it.

Use Laurels of Command to combine Without Mercy! and Fix Bayonets! and you can be in a very bad place if you're stuck in an extended assault with a Krieg infantry line.
Honestly, their biggest problem is sheer (financial) cost. There's a bundle deal for a krieg 'platoon' that optimistically will let you put about 400 points on the table.....for the painful sum of £295.
Add in the fact that the grenadier squad is out of production and putting a 1750 point 'throne of skulls' size army together is a 'spare kidney' job.

Des702 wrote:
I think part of the reason Cultus pay more is because they're not the default troop of the army. Looking at units in a vacuum doesn't always give you the reason why they cost so much like Imperial Guard have better orders and regimental bonuses. The cultist have way better strategies and auras. Guard doesn't get auras they have to do individual commands. Honestly I think the two are close enough fit they should probably be priced the same.are guard squads better possibly but not enough to justify being an additional point more.

Also if we change Rangers then we have to change Vanguard then we have to change all the Guardians then we have to change tau and we have to change dark eldar that may have to change a bunch of the tyranid troops like the hormagaunts and termagaunts. Seriously if you love space Marine so much then why don't you push for space Marines to be changed instead.

Was something like that ever specified by members of the design team? About the core units of an army being a bit or more then a bit overcosted, so people use them?


As marines changes go, I know the question wasn't directed at me, but I don't think GW wants to update old marines. Be their loyalist or chaos. They seem to be fine with the rules they have now. If they ever wanted to fix them, they would have done it a long time ago. Grunt marines are bad for more then some time. No idea how they were in 7th though.