Chaos Cultist new change and thoughts on Guard as alternative?

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**Karol**

Galas wrote:
I don't know. Maybe in ITC Soup is the hotness but in ETC Tournament teams (Where one team can't repeat factions so one Imperial Soup automatically fills 3 factions from being used) Guard stills destroys nearly everything else. I know people has allready forgot how good baneblades are because Castellan is just must better.
But catachan hordes with Straken and Hellhounds are still very hot (Lol I made a joke), and theres many armies that can't do anything agaisnt a Imperial Guard artillery army.

And yeah I know, nothing of that appears in LVO or Adepticon so everything is crap and only Ynnari and 32+Castellan is actually powerfull (Glorius american meta that is better than european one because their tournament pack> our tournament pack ). Just like in 7th Tau were fine because they didn't won tournaments, because it was all Demon spam and Eldar.

didn't both LVO and the last GW sponsored big tournament have a flyer wing Eldar list in like top 2-4? so some stuff seems to be good no matter what kind of scenario or setting is being played

**MinscS2**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
MinscS2 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Guard aren't even fine in their own book. Guard need more nerfs, or they wouldn't be in so many tournament lists. If said mechanics are REALLY baked in, shouldn't guardsmen pay more for being able to exploit those mechanics?

If the issue is soup, then nerf the fething soup. Don't punish "pure" IG-players because other armies exploit the CP-system in their name.

But punish other chaos players because some people stick slaanesh mark on their oblits, or like to abuse alpha legion cultist bombs?

Don't put words in my mouth please, you'll be pressed to find a single post from me where I welcome general nerfs to cultists due to alpha legion or oblits due to MoS+Cacaphony.

As for cultists I do think that 5 ppm is too much, but I also think that they never should've had legion traits to begin with, just as conscripts shouldn't be able to receive orders at all, nor have regimental traits. (They're conscripts after all, not trained soldiers.)

**Martel732**

Base guardsmen shouldnt have traits at 4 ppm. Or orders. 4 point models should basically be super bare bones. That's the implied contract of paying very few points. You get very few benefits/abilities.

**Des702**

oh look another thread about how guardsmen are under costing and help the poor chaos even though they're receiving huge amount of buffs and models in love from GW, how they don't ever get anything good.

sometimes I honestly wonder if any of these people have ever played against pure Guard lists or just a loyal 32. Trust me play against a pure guard and you won't be whining about their infantry, they are nothing game breaking. It's like when people complain about basilisks. I think on average they're removing one to two marines a turn and typically never make their points in entire game.

**Martel732**

They are game breaking. Mono IG is soul crushing, they just come up short in ITC. Trying playing GW's godawful missions vs mono IG. It's not about making points back. It's about swarming objectives with infinite cheap obj sec that can't be removed in a reasonable period of time.

Baneblade hulls are more overgunned than IKs, they just can't survived 40+ lascannon shots. But guardsment still make them immune to assault and short range weapons.

**Jidmah**

Why are you shooting basilisks at space marines?

To give that poor marine player a fighting chance before getting obliterated by all those other tanks?

**Ice_can**

Des702 wrote:
oh look another thread about how guardsmen are under costing and help the poor chaos even though they're receiving huge amount of buffs and models in love from GW, how they don't ever get anything good.

sometimes I honestly wonder if any of these people have ever played against pure Guard lists or just a loyal 32. Trust me play against a pure guard and you won't be whining about their infantry, they are nothing game breaking. It's like when people complain about basilisks. I think on average they're removing one to two marines a turn and typically never make their points in entire game.

Loyal 32 is something guard players hide behind to justify their undercosted units.

As much as I hate it Martel does have a point IG codex is full of choices that just take the mick out of other codex's.
Trying to remove 30 wounds of 5+ or 4+ save for 120 points isn't something that many codex's can achieve.

The direct comparison between IS and Cultists was bad when they went to 5ppm now it's rediculous 4ppm IS +1Ld +1Sv for a point less and can still have regiment traits?

This unfortunately looks like GW is just nerfing cultists off the table.

**Martel732**

Why is it so hard to acknowledge simple math? Because I posted it?

Anyway, it's trivially true that unit capability should scale with cost. No one should expect to get much for 4 points. Yet, here we are.

And I don't care about the guard fluff. I know there are lots of them. You still have to pay points for capabilities. Period. No fluff discounts.

**G00fySmiley**

mono guard is hella strong. I have had my battlewagon list be wiped by mono guard without being able to make a single charge. turn 1 cracks half my battle wagons and most everything inside. turn 2 the wagons that get to move get blown up and contents ravaged. turn 3 cleanup on aisle orks I am close to tabled and am just left with a handful of backfield models like lootas who now have the gretchin whittle down enough that they get blown away too. I think mono guard are the strongest single codex, the only competition it has for the title is mono dark eldar.

**Des702**

You see we got so much in common, Imperial Guard players defend the points cost of Imperial Guard stuff and Chaos players constantly whine as they receive the second most love in the game.

But I'll concede the point that maybe they could go cheaper. I don't typically follow tournaments nor play super competitive games so maybe in my games they are underwhelming because we're kind of playing for fun, where is in tournament and hardcore games they're insufferable.

**Martel732**

IG codex has ruined countless non-competitive games in my experience.

**Bobthehero**

Jidmah wrote:
Why are you shooting basilisks at space marines?

To give that poor marine player a fighting chance before getting obliterated by all those other tanks?

I don't have tanks, so Earthshakers will do

**Des702**

IG codex has ruined countless non-competitive games in my experience

Really? all my closest games have been playing my Guard the ones where I stomped the other person typically are with Admech or Nids.

So for argument's sake if Imperial Guard went up to 5 points per guy and the commanders went up an additional five points would that make you guys Happy? Cuz honestly stop seeing this same argument I would totally go for that. It would only really hurt the spam.

Edit: so in your opinion who should I be shooting with the basilisk? a tank oh wow that's like a whole 4 wounds a turn... the funny thing is it's indirect fire probably won't matter than anyways since tanks are so hard to hide.

**Martel732**

Des702 wrote:
IG codex has ruined countless non-competitive games in my experience

Really? all my closest games have been playing my Guard the ones where I stomped the other person typically are with Admech or Nids.

So for argument's sake if Imperial Guard went up to 5 points per guy and the commanders went up an additional five points would that make you guys Happy? Cuz honestly stop seeing this same argument I would totally go for that. It would only really hurt the spam.

Would have to be playtested. I don't think 5 is a good number anymore, after the cultist treatment. But it's where it would probably start. Commanders probably need more than 5 pt hike. Their utility is stupid. Everyone is conditioned to seeing IG get effective stuff for next to no points. Freaking storm guardians are 6 ppm. That's probably where guardsmen should be. I mean at 4 pts, they should get no traits and no orders. That's what GW is telling us with cultists.

**Des702**

Part of the problem is guard look stupidly cheap next to some units. But the lack of points granularity makes it so if you make them six then they're so close to other units that are way more effective than them.

**Xenomancers**

Lets focus on the good - 5 point cultists without VOTL is a step in the right direction. Realistically though - Choas has received a massive buff. It is utterly massive.

Cursed Earth
+1 to hit prayers
shoot twice with havocs or a big ass unit of noice marines? and oblitz in the same turn. I mean...guys...it's getting ridiculous. Not to mention the Abadon buff....I mean...I get that it is abaddon but should he really be out damaging a primarch for 0 points increase? OFC the answer is no but...whatever.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Martel732 wrote:
Des702 wrote:
IG codex has ruined countless non-competitive games in my experience

Really? all my closest games have been playing my Guard the ones where I stomped the other person typically are with Admech or Nids.

So for argument's sake if Imperial Guard went up to 5 points per guy and the commanders went up an additional five points would that make you guys Happy? Cuz honestly stop seeing this same argument I would totally go for that. It would only really hurt the spam.

Would have to be playtested. I don't think 5 is a good number anymore, after the cultist treatment. But it's where it would probably start. Commanders probably need more than 5 pt hike. Their utility is stupid. Everyone is conditioned to seeing IG get effective stuff for next to no points. Freaking storm guardians are 6 ppm. That's probably where guardsmen should be. I mean at 4 pts, they should get no traits and no orders. That's what GW is telling us with cultists.

Storm Guardians shouldn't exist in the first place. Bad concept, bad execution, pointless unit that has never been done well.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
Lets focus on the good - 5 point cultists without VOTL is a step in the right direction. Realistically though - Choas has received a massive buff. It is utterly massive.

Cursed Earth
+1 to hit prayers
shoot twice with havocs or a big ass unit of noice marines? and oblitz in the same turn. I mean...guys...it's getting ridiculous. Not to mention the Abadon buff....I mean...I get that it is abaddon but should he really be out damaging a primarch for 0 points increase? OFC the answer is no but...whatever.

Out-damaging a Primarch seems to be a stretch. Maybe against smaller targets...

**Bobthehero**

So if Guardsmen are 6ppm, would Kriegsmen go up to 7ppm? Firewarrior price, really?

**Martel732**

Des702 wrote:
Part of the problem is guard look stupidly cheap next to some units. But the lack of points granularity makes it so if you make them six then they're so close to other units that are way more effective than them.

Which units? Storm guardians? Maybe kabalites. But if we make kabs 8 pts....

**Not Online!!!**

Bobthehero wrote:
So if Guardsmen are 6ppm, would Kriegsmen go up to 7ppm? Firewarrior price, really?

Of course, how dare you think otherwise.
Their worse rules justify.

**Des702**

You would basically have to change the point cost of every other troop in the game other than space Marines to fix that. Not just guardians but dark calibites, Admech rangers, vanguard, termagaunts... 6 is too much without a huge overhaul of the game.

**Martel732**

Bobthehero wrote:
So if Guardsmen are 6ppm, would Kriegsmen go up to 7ppm? Firewarrior price, really?

I'd put firewarriors back at 8. And yes, traits and orders and such should cost. God forbid ig have slightly below average troops and amazing tanks.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Des702 wrote:
You would basically have to change the point cost of every other troop in the game other than space Marines to fix that. Not just guardians but dark calibites, Admech rangers, vanguard, termagaunts... 6 is too much without a huge overhaul of the game.

Nevertheless thats what the cultist change is saying. Cultists and guardsmen cant be the same price.

**Bobthehero**

Some make them good tanks and good infantry, don't penalize those who don't field Leman Russes.

**Not Online!!!**

Martel732 wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
So if Guardsmen are 6ppm, would Kriegsmen go up to 7ppm? Firewarrior price, really?

I'd put firewarriors back at 8. And yes, traits and orders and such should cost. God forbid ig have slightly below average troops and amazing tanks.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Des702 wrote:
You would basically have to change the point cost of every other troop in the game other than space Marines to fix that. Not just guardians but dark calibites, Admech rangers, vanguard, termagaunts... 6 is too much without a huge overhaul of the game.

Nevertheless thats what the cultist change is saying. Cultists and guardsmen cant be the same price.

Adorable, then you realise that auras do outperform in castle builds and then you must price in auras off abbadon and Guilliman and then you get 15 ppm tacs, because ultramarines.

you sure you want to apply that principle?

**Xenomancers**

Bobthehero wrote:
So if Guardsmen are 6ppm, would Kriegsmen go up to 7ppm? Firewarrior price, really?

Firewarriors are clearly the next most undercosted unit after infantry. They need to go up. Plus a Kriegsmen is not an official codex yet. Lets focus on the real stuff. Infantry 6/ Vets 7/ khabs+ firewarriors to 8.

**Not Online!!!**

Xenomancers wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
So if Guardsmen are 6ppm, would Kriegsmen go up to 7ppm? Firewarrior price, really?
Firewarriors are clearly the next most undercosted unit after infantry. They need to go up. Plus a Kriegsmen is not an official codex yet. Lets focus on the real stuff. Infantry 6/ Vets 7/ khabs+ firewarriors to 8.

FW is as official as your marines, you realize that right?

**Martel732**

Bobthehero wrote:
Some make them good tanks and good infantry, don't penalize those who don't field Leman Russes.

I get penalized for everything because marines. No sympathy. No mercy. Something has to give with ig.

IG even punch better and im fething blood angels.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
So if Guardsmen are 6ppm, would Kriegsmen go up to 7ppm? Firewarrior price, really?
Firewarriors are clearly the next most undercosted unit after infantry. They need to go up. Plus a Kriegsmen is not an official codex yet. Lets focus on the real stuff. Infantry 6/ Vets 7/ khabs+ firewarriors to 8.

FW is as official as your marines, you realize that right?

What I think he means is that, since they're still not out of their Index stage, we should focus on the armies that aren't dealing with that issue.

I could be mistaken but I think that's what they meant.

**Not Online!!!**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
So if Guardsmen are 6ppm, would Kriegsmen go up to 7ppm? Firewarrior price, really?
Firewarriors are clearly the next most undercosted unit after infantry. They need to go up. Plus a Kriegsmen is not an official codex yet. Lets focus on the real stuff. Infantry 6/ Vets 7/ khabs+ firewarriors to 8.

FW is as official as your marines, you realize that right?

What I think he means is that, since they're still not out of their Index stage, we should focus on the armies that aren't dealing with that issue.

I could be mistaken but I think that's what they meant.

No it's Martel, for him fw is p2w, everything not marines op out of principle.

**Bobthehero**

Martel732 wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
Some make them good tanks and good infantry, don't penalize those who don't field Leman Russes.

I get penalized for everything because marines. No sympathy. No mercy. Something has to give with ig.

IG even punch better and im fething blood angels.

My Guardsmen don't, no acess to Straken or STR 4, either