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BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind that GW may also be assuming with these rules the bolt rifles are being fired with the bolter disipline rules so that's 4 shots from each of the boltrifles

No, it has the rapid fire ability, just like the gauss has. Rest doesnt matter on the sheat...

 0XFallen wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind that GW may also be assuming with these rules the bolt rifles are being fired with the bolter disipline rules so that's 4 shots from each of the boltrifles

No, it has the rapid fire ability, just like the gauss has. Rest doesnt matter on the sheat...

my point is when desinging the damage a boltgun in space marine hands do GW might be making them more important to account for that. or they could just finally be reckongizing that bolters in 40k where too weak something almost universally agreed

This actually makes sense to me. A squad firing a squad's worth of rifles at another squad is going to do more damage than one plasma gun firing at the same squad.

Here's the thing: Bolt rifles are actually good in 40k now. Unlocking vet squads and using rapid fire Strat on them, with HQ support, pushes them into a high bracket of damage output. They're fairly good against T7 vehicles (that 10-man vet squad with hqs drops 6 damage on a Pred, 1 damage short of a quad lascannon firing under the same conditions), they shred infantry and have great effective range. For the first time a lot of my local players are sizing up SM infantry with a bit of concern, which is ... a novel experience.

Their translation into apoc as a good gun is no surprise. GW have been rebalancing the bolt rifle for some time and have reached a point in 40k where they're happy with them.

Also note that there's a fundamental difference between '40k' and 'apocalypse' - the lack of a toughness stat; your toughness is now 'tank' or 'infantry'.

Which means that infantry taking fire covers everything between grots and gaunts up to plague marines and custodians. The difference in antipersonnel effectiveness of plasma guns versus a similar number of boltguns is huge in the latter case but barely noticeable (if at all) in the former, so the actual roll to wound needs to be a balance between the two.

I'd assume that the effectiveness of weapons is roughly averaged against about 'toughness 3 and a bit'....so, yeah. Bolters are still pretty lethal on that scale, even compared to bigger guns.

The comment on bolter discipline is a fair one. We won't know if that's included in the estimate until we see stats for a bolter-armed squad who aren't space marines (emperor's talons or sororitas, basically). Since it only really makes a difference to fire when stationary, it's probably more likely to be a rule or stratagem associated with Prepared Fire orders,though.

Oh, and yes, the Emperor's sword wounds on a 4+ not a 5+ but it's also a destroyer weapon, so each wound lands a large blast marker, not a small one. A single attack from gulliman's sword is actually about three times more lethal than a 5-man squad's bolter fire, with about a 46% chance of causing damage to a marine unit compared to 16%.

Also: If they talk about its stats being 1 role for the whole unit its even more rediculous, 10 Warriors with Gauss should be double likely to wound anything than 5 intercessors.

Small arms fire is attacks per unit, but do 10 necron warriors have 1 attack or 2. Big squads don't get 1 attack per model but do get more than 1.

Also: If they talk about its stats being 1 role for the whole unit its even more rediculous, 10 Warriors with Gauss should be double likely to wound anything than 5 intercessors.

Small arms fire is attacks per unit, but do 10 necron warriors have 1 attack or 2. Big squads don't get 1 attack per model but do get more than 1.

 0XFallen wrote:

Small arms fire is attacks per unit, but do 10 necron warriors have 1 attack or 2. Big squads don't get 1 attack per model but do get more than 1.

Necron warrios are minimum 10, up to 20

Found the bit of the video.

It doesn't matter how many models they are per se; but how many wounds and attacks a squad has.
10 warriors get 2 attacks to a 5 intercessors' 1 attack, so in volume of fire they're consistant.
I agree gauss flayers being SAP 7+ are worse than bolt rifles at SAP5+ on each attack, which represents 5 shots.

However, I'm not sure the problem is necessarily the intercessors; note that the warriors' 'Heavy Blades' are also SAP7+; if when working out the effectiveness of the attack, the unit got 'credit' for its AP-1, then the Gauss Flayer should be 'Better' than the warriors' melee weapon, but they're not. I will be interested to see what the Immortals' statlines are like; with the increased push in each edition of warriors as the use-en-masse skeleton warrior equivalent to immortals taking the warriors role as the-terminator-esque invulneramonster.

By comparison, if the Bolt Rifles don't have an extra option for grenade launchers, it's possible that a bolt rifle salvo 'includes' the effect of a grenade launcher-fired frag or krak grenade as well, making it look better than it should.

And yes, there might be a degree of re-balancing; this is an opportunity to 'tweak' marines' stats without messing them up relative to every other codex; Peregrine is right in one respect - GW is going to want marine infantry to 'work' in the new game system (much like they picked up Transhuman Physiology) in Kill-Team.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also - watching through the video:

1) no, intercessors don't get a seperate line item for their grenade launchers, so the bolt rifle stats probably includes a notional bost for a krak grenade

2) Astartes combat blades are also SAP 7+/SAT 9+, so that's clearly the 'default' translation of a S4 AP- weapon*. So the necron warriors have been screwed over a bit by not getting AP-1 taken into account for their gauss flayers. Meaning necrons are a touch worse than they 'should' be and primaris a touch better, so a comparison between the two looks wierd.

3) 10 Necron Warriors have the same cost as 5 Intercessors, at 6 power. 2 SAP 7+ attacks at a save 6+ target are as near as darn it the same at 1 SAP 5+ attack at a save 8+ target, too (because of the chance of two hits and a 'bugger your saving throw' large blast).



* SAP 8+ SAT 10+ is grot blastas, so (one assumes) the 'strength 3' standard.

And a Contemptor Dreadnought is as tough a Land Raider [well, almost. It's got 2 wounds on 3+ vs 3 wounds on 4+]

locarno24 wrote:

Also - watching through the video:

1) no, intercessors don't get a seperate line item for their grenade launchers, so the bolt rifle stats probably includes a notional bost for a krak grenade

2) Astartes combat blades are also SAP 7+/SAT 9+, so that's clearly the 'default' translation of a S4 AP- weapon*. So the necron warriors have been screwed over a bit by not getting AP-1 taken into account for their gauss flayers. Meaning necrons are a touch worse than they 'should' be and primaris a touch better, so a comparison between the two looks wierd.

3) 10 Necron Warriors have the same cost as 5 Intercessors, at 6 power. 2 SAP 7+ attacks at a save 6+ target are as near as darn it the same at 1 SAP 5+ attack at a save 8+ target, too (because of the chance of two hits and a 'bugger your saving throw' large blast).



* SAP 8+ SAT 10+ is grot blastas, so (one assumes) the 'strength 3' standard.

The data sheets show regular boltguns on tactical squads and scouts as SAP 7+/SAT 9+ just like the combat blades you picked out above, so I agree with your assessment on 2)

Actually, looking through the datasheets, there is still an open question on bolt rifles.

Regular Bolters are 7+/ 9+, 24"
Special Issue/Deathwatch Bolters are 6+/9+, 30"
Deathwatch Bolt Rifles are 5+/9+, 36"

Intercessor Bolt Rifles are 5+/8+, 30"

I can't see any justification for SAT 8+, because anything intercessors can do, deathwatch intercessors can do better; any argument for auxiliary grenade launchers, bolt rifle variants or a "+1 to primaris so they're not god-awful this time" should apply to the deathwatch too.

locarno24 wrote:
Actually, looking through the datasheets, there is still an open question on bolt rifles.

Regular Bolters are 7+/ 9+, 24"
Special Issue/Deathwatch Bolters are 6+/9+, 30"
Deathwatch Bolt Rifles are 5+/9+, 36"

Intercessor Bolt Rifles are 5+/8+, 30"

I can't see any justification for SAT 8+, because anything intercessors can do, deathwatch intercessors can do better; any argument for auxiliary grenade launchers, bolt rifle variants or a "+1 to primaris so they're not god-awful this time" should apply to the deathwatch too.


[/quote

Have to agree with this, some of the profiles just seem a little off.

In their defence there are an aweful lots of datasheets to produce so mistakes will be made, also all the little things we see off off are generally in comparison to the 40K stats and they may have altered this in apoc for purely balance reasons. The standard meltagun in Apoc is pretty dam poor for instance, especially in comparion to a multimelta or god forbid eldar fusion guns on fire dragons (I know they represent a unit firing).

The simple answer is Necron squads are bigger, and without granular points this is the best way they determined to try and balance things a little. They clearly want larger squads of warriors, and making the stats on par with the Intercessors would make them too good, or too expensive.

Personally I wish they would go to this style of rules for regular 40k, I like the idea of squads as single entities and rolling fewer dice.

Breng77 wrote:
The simple answer is Necron squads are bigger, and without granular points this is the best way they determined to try and balance things a little. They clearly want larger squads of warriors, and making the stats on par with the Intercessors would make them too good, or too expensive.

Personally I wish they would go to this style of rules for regular 40k, I like the idea of squads as single entities and rolling fewer dice.

A lot of the rules I've superficially seen remind me of Epic Armageddon. Which is awesome, because that was an amazing game.

I'm guessing typo/poor editing on the Deathwatch v. regular Intercessor problem. I'm also not sure why regular Intercessors have an x2A/7+/9+ melee weapon while the Deathwatch Intercessors have an A/6+/9+ melee weapon given that in 40k their melee capabilities are identical.

 0XFallen wrote:
They wound as good as plasma, better than gauss, even better against tanks than gauss...

Strange balance descisions

They gotta sell those Primaris marines.