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No vet intercessors are quite nice. Im rather unhappy i dont get them.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I agree - Vet intercessors are probably the best things space marines have to offer right now. I do pretty well with them but I can't move - they deserve this firepower on the move for their cost.

They really dont deserve it.

Howver its absolutely not true that they dont move. I see a lot of people giving up great tactical position just to roll some extra dice but heres the secret: once you advance once, you'll often be shooting those extra shots anyways because you'll be close enough. So honestly, not playing mobile is a choice, not a restriction.

Okay...they don't deserve it...Other units in the game don't have to stay still or waste a round of shooting or spend a CP per squad be be considered decent. They absolutely deserve it. Until I see a single army place high in a 100+ tournament spamming intercessors they need improvement. Heck for 1 more point per unit DW intercessors are MUCH better. Bolter discipline still needs improvement.

It just happened. Lol. Ultramatrines took like 2nd at a big tournament QUITE recently using them. Tau and Chaos took the other two top slots. Yup.

2nd at a big tournament? WTF? I've seen 1 unit being taken at a tournament like ever.

 Horst wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I agree - Vet intercessors are probably the best things space marines have to offer right now. I do pretty well with them but I can't move - they deserve this firepower on the move for their cost.

They really dont deserve it.

Howver its absolutely not true that they dont move. I see a lot of people giving up great tactical position just to roll some extra dice but heres the secret: once you advance once, you'll often be shooting those extra shots anyways because you'll be close enough. So honestly, not playing mobile is a choice, not a restriction.

Okay...they don't deserve it...Other units in the game don't have to stay still or waste a round of shooting or spend a CP per squad be be considered decent. They absolutely deserve it. Until I see a single army place high in a 100+ tournament spamming intercessors they need improvement. Heck for 1 more point per unit DW intercessors are MUCH better. Bolter discipline still needs improvement.

Does literally any army except Daemons "spam" a troops unit though? And even then, it's 2 max size units of plaguebearers, not really spammed. Troops in general are just sub par, and they exist to hold objectives. The fact that some of them can do damage is usually a bonus.

Infantry is king at the moment. Some armies still like to do the elite thing and its not entirely the wrong move FOR some armies but infantry is sort of King right now.

Martel732 wrote:
No vet intercessors are quite nice. Im rather unhappy i dont get them.

They are the best marines have to offer. They are still not good enough.

Somewhat, like with AoS I initially really enjoyed and still find it a fun enough thing to on a not so regular basis but I can't help feel that many of those folk who said the games are more resembling card games than war games in terms of design had a point and there are clearly many people who want that so it's fine.

I still like to read codexes/battletomes and learn the rules and think about the design intent and of course build/paint models but I'm finding more and more the actual playing of the game doesn't really seem worth the hassle,I don't find it interesting or fun enough. :(

As a staunch AoS defender from day one I'm more and more hoping that they bring back some version of WHFB, even if set in the mortal realms and even if it's on the b roster of games. I've heard that LOTR could scratch this itch but am not super stoked about the idea of building another large army (who am I kidding, I'd love to but can't justify it on many levels).

For me, the constraints of my army are really starting to wear on me.

DE HQs lacking mobility and options bugged me in 7th, and the fact that they still have no mobility but now have basically no customisation either is really depressing.

I've had a lot of modelling ideas for characters, but find myself having to take Ynnari Eldar or Harlequin allies to represent *any* of them on the table.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Horst wrote:
Not really, I'm having a ton of fun with the 40k tournament scene. There are ITC events every other weekend for me to go to, which is really driving how I spend my hobby time lately.

One issue I've been struggling with lately is related to the event scene. I don't like the style of play, but almost everyone wants to play their missions using the ITC rules. It's starting to become a hassle for me sometimes just to find someone who wants to run a simple mission out of the book. I just do not see the appeal of the ITC format. It seems heavily stacked in favor of things like elite armies and alpha strikes, two things that make the game a lot less fun for me to play.

TO's can use their own missions or even the book missions for events. I plan to do so for an upcoming event.

ITC does not require that you use their missions. So see if your T.O. even knows that and whether he's willing to be less sheep and more leader on that sort of thing. I like the Chapter Approved missions also. those ones are pretty great and ITC even took a cue from them with their missions 2,4 and 6.

As for the question in general: Primaris Marines have gotten a ton of love and development so the original post makes little sense to me. I would refute the assertion that they've "gone nowhere". They are CONSIDERABLY more impossing now than when first they dropped.

They are bland, and still inferior to my Chaos Marine Codex, which is much, much better in terms of synergy and active stratagems. Primaris are dull, uninspired and have next to no choices when it comes to weapon load-outs, cc or ranged variants, buffs and stratagems.

The only thing about the resurgence I like is new models. Past that, I haven't liked current 40K rules in well over a decade.

I mostly play sisters, so obviously my opinion is totally biased and selfish, but for me, this is the golden age of 40k.

As a campaign player, I also love soup rules because they make storytelling possible. Ditto with minigames. Apocalypse just adds another layer.

I'm hoping Xenos get some love from the next Blackstone expansion. I believe that the original Warhammer Quest released several expansions with characters- and I think they released character kits in batches.

I think Duke Sliscus would be a perfect Blackstone Explorer with his pirate ship and experience with space travel. Lady Malys' ability to predict the future makes her another candidate. Of course, 40k rules will be in the box.

They could release a Mandrake Kill Team with Keradruak as a leader.

Unfortunately GW lost the opportunity to do Baron Sathonyx as part of Gangs of Commorragh; with his speed advantage, he's not suitable for Blackstone or Kill Team. I could see a rerelease of GoC if they do a big DE release.

I know nothing about Orks or Tau, but the fact there's already a Kroot in Blackstone, the T'au Empire has a map to it if they want one. I could see a character Mek boy having an interest in Blackstone.

Tyranids are hard; GSC already has so many character models that it would be sufficient to publish digital rules for using some of them. A Twisted Helix Biophagus looking for specimens to breed?

Anyway that's where I think 40k expansion is going. I think we'll get Emperor's Children, Inquisition or Imperial Agents and of course, Sisters.

Once all the dexes are out, expansion will be done through minigames with 40k rules in the box. This is where the resculpts of some of the really old models will happen.

Eventually, they'll rerelease a box with new armies and the most up to date info- they could even 8.5 it and corelease a new BRB, as long as the rule updates don't require another reset button.

My buddy and I are playing a lot of the missions out of CA 2018. YMMV

Im getting a bit jaded with shootings dominance in the current 8th ed.
I cant recall the last time I had a juicy hand to hand fight in a game.
I wish there was more love for the combat phase but too many factors mitigate its effectiveness and buff shooting

Add to that the relative lethality of the psychic phase and morale being kinda non existent - the game sometimes feels like its only 3 phases move/smite/shoot.

PenitentJake wrote:


Once all the dexes are out, expansion will be done through minigames with 40k rules in the box. This is where the resculpts of some of the really old models will happen.

Eventually, they'll rerelease a box with new armies and the most up to date info- they could even 8.5 it and corelease a new BRB, as long as the rule updates don't require another reset button.

I hope not, I had the Kill Teams boxed set with the Death Watch two squad kill team with Cassius, and one marine from everywhere, plus the 40K rules and points - which is now no longer a thing. More of that, and feeling like the models you're buying today won't be a thing this time next year isn't something I'll be in a hurry to do.

I'm of two minds of this edition so far.

I loved the roll out and felt it was going in a good direction. As time rolls on I feel like we're just the last editions all over again despite the promise of new GW which is a meme if anything at this point.

Not to say it hasn't had good times, it has but yeah. I'm feeling the onrush of 7th coming back around.

Hell even in this thread. It's being said how " Worth it " primaris are, because of formations in one book, oh I mean detachment with strats, my bad. It's so not formations.

The dark times, they will be back on in full swing soon mark my words. The only safety is casual.

Bloat is definitely back in 8th. No one can argue that. Formations are back with a dangerous precedent to avoid. But Rules are better and regular errata and tweaks make the game way more balanced but balance issues are still around. GSC need to be looked at.

There is something about 8th that is so different to the way it was before that I don't enjoy playing as much as I used to. It has definitely become gotcha hammer. Maybe this is because prior to 8th we were fundamentally playing the same ruleset that got tweaked with time but 8th is so different it never really felt like playing warhammer to me. I'm an old head and voicing these opinions in public are scary

I can't remember the last game of 40k I had. I burned out on it last year and decided to focus more on AoS this year. I'd still be open for a game but the situation hasn't arisen in some time.

Still happily working away on my armies though and loving the literature when it's released. Vigilus books were a treat. Always fun to keep an eye on here what's happening as well.

I really like the idea of 8th but there's just something about the game, holistically, which bothers me (e.g. it's crazy killy, the min-max nature of a lot of 40k players, the worship of ITC).

It's wearing off yes. Mostly because I don't play as much as I used to. With the constant release of new units and the FAQs/Erratas over so many books, I have a hard time keeping up. I don't play enough games between each update for all the rules to sink in, so I constantly have the impression that I don't know the rules fully.
So I mostly play Mordheim and KT now.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I agree - Vet intercessors are probably the best things space marines have to offer right now. I do pretty well with them but I can't move - they deserve this firepower on the move for their cost.

They really dont deserve it.

Howver its absolutely not true that they dont move. I see a lot of people giving up great tactical position just to roll some extra dice but heres the secret: once you advance once, you'll often be shooting those extra shots anyways because you'll be close enough. So honestly, not playing mobile is a choice, not a restriction.

Okay...they don't deserve it...Other units in the game don't have to stay still or waste a round of shooting or spend a CP per squad be be considered decent. They absolutely deserve it. Until I see a single army place high in a 100+ tournament spamming intercessors they need improvement. Heck for 1 more point per unit DW intercessors are MUCH better. Bolter discipline still needs improvement.

"If i cannot spam unit x to win in a 100+ tournament then the unit needs improvement".

Really?

Were you serious?

That's an extreme position, I agree. I think vet intercessors are pretty well in line with most troops that I consider strong. Maybe not plaguebearers. But they are really extreme imo.

The luster is starting to wane for me as well. I was so excited to get back into 40k after a decade out but I'm starting to feel exploited by GW.

GWs inconsistent stance on what it considers balance is starting to grind me down. Their refusal to fix units which are clearly mis-pointed and their reluctance to embrace an army builder or more up to date digital media are starting to wear on me. Moving unit rules to white dwarf is slimy (had to buy white dwarf to field my assassins, crimson fists got really good rules in a WD).

If a new marine codex comes out and invalidates the 5 that I have (SM, DA, BA, DW, SW) I'll have a feels bad moment for sure (access to official up-to-date digital data sheets should be included with the purchase of a hard-cover book at the very least).

40k is feeling very pay to win. Instead of being able to go out and buy units that I like or want to paint I have to keep up with the cutting edge tec to not get ROFL stomped by out the box stronger factions (GSC, knights, guard, DE, eldar, chaos). The imbalance of strats, army traits and psychic powers takes unit power disparities and cranks them up to ludicrous levels and now it seems like GW is monetizing those (expansions, CA and WD) in what feels like an exploitative cash grab.

Paying for cool new models or stuff that I don't already have that I want to paint/play with = feels good. Paying for rules so that I don't get tabled turn 2 = feels bad.

Breton wrote:


I hope not, I had the Kill Teams boxed set with the Death Watch two squad kill team with Cassius, and one marine from everywhere, plus the 40K rules and points - which is now no longer a thing. More of that, and feeling like the models you're buying today won't be a thing this time next year isn't something I'll be in a hurry to do.

Yeah, in that case the dex was release AFTER the KT.

What I'm talking about is the opposite of that- releasing a Kill Team of new models and a new leader box rather than just releasing new units or new characters.

Only because my army isn't fething out yet and our 'tide you over' dex is gak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I'm of two minds of this edition so far.

I loved the roll out and felt it was going in a good direction. As time rolls on I feel like we're just the last editions all over again despite the promise of new GW which is a meme if anything at this point.

Not to say it hasn't had good times, it has but yeah. I'm feeling the onrush of 7th coming back around.

Hell even in this thread. It's being said how " Worth it " primaris are, because of formations in one book, oh I mean detachment with strats, my bad. It's so not formations.

The dark times, they will be back on in full swing soon mark my words. The only safety is casual.

Formations were an exacerbating factor in 7th. They weren't the actual problem.

The problem was deathstars, hilariously undercosted Monsterous Creatures, and Eldar. Fortunately only 1 of those still exists in 8th.

The game just doesn't really hold it's weight for me. It's not tactically engaging at any level. There are far more interesting wargames I could play, while 40k is just simply target priority and when to use strategems for the shooty factions.

 Sir Heckington wrote:
The game just doesn't really hold it's weight for me. It's not tactically engaging at any level. There are far more interesting wargames I could play, while 40k is just simply target priority and when to use strategems for the shooty factions.

Was 40k ever tactically engaging? I always thought it was and 8th has dumbed down a bit but I may be remembering old editions with rose tinted glasses here.

Well, we just had another baby, so I haven't gotten a game of 8th in for a few months, but I can get two or three games of kill team in on one visit to the game store. I lose a lot, but I still have a lot of fun and get the models on the table. I really like what GW is doing, and the community engagement seems really great.

And my even 4 year old likes to throw down with really basic rules on the kitchen table sometimes as well. 3+ and his space marine kills my genestealer, or a 3+ for me and I just give his dude an owie. hah. he then sends all his marines to rescue the hurt guy. He definitely is a "leave no man behind" kinda boy.

You just gotta find ways to enjoy the hobby, and if you're not, either change things up or take a break. This is supposed to be entertainment and fun!

For me it wore off with my first game of 8th.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Uhhh its not the only strategy in the game that works but spamming troops is a pretty core part of the competitive game right now. 90+ infantry squads is common. DE spamming Khabs in venoms is common. Tau spam 3 batallions with 45 fire warriors. Chaos bring a ton of cultists and daemon troop allies. Orks spam troops to the max. Armies that can't do it struggle or they just borrow guardsmen or they are Eldar. Spamming troops is a huge part of the game. If intercessors were anywhere near as good as to not deserve to be able to move during the game or sacrifice 50% of the their damage. They'd probably be on every imperial table.

Fielding 3,600 points of IG Infantry is common? For that matter, how are you getting 90 Troops slots in most "standard" games?

 Dysartes wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Uhhh its not the only strategy in the game that works but spamming troops is a pretty core part of the competitive game right now. 90+ infantry squads is common. DE spamming Khabs in venoms is common. Tau spam 3 batallions with 45 fire warriors. Chaos bring a ton of cultists and daemon troop allies. Orks spam troops to the max. Armies that can't do it struggle or they just borrow guardsmen or they are Eldar. Spamming troops is a huge part of the game. If intercessors were anywhere near as good as to not deserve to be able to move during the game or sacrifice 50% of the their damage. They'd probably be on every imperial table.

Fielding 3,600 points of IG Infantry is common? For that matter, how are you getting 90 Troops slots in most "standard" games?

Perhaps he meant 90+ Infantry Squad models as opposed to 900 models? I'd like to see a game with 900 Guardsman though!

 Nithaniel wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
The game just doesn't really hold it's weight for me. It's not tactically engaging at any level. There are far more interesting wargames I could play, while 40k is just simply target priority and when to use strategems for the shooty factions.

Was 40k ever tactically engaging? I always thought it was and 8th has dumbed down a bit but I may be remembering old editions with rose tinted glasses here.

I don't think it was. I came into 40k into 8th and looking back it never seemed like it. I was brought in by the lore and the models but when I have such a limited supply of money, I really just can't get up and go to my FLGS to play. The game doesn't tactically engage me, and looking back on older editions it seems the same way.

 Nithaniel wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
The game just doesn't really hold it's weight for me. It's not tactically engaging at any level. There are far more interesting wargames I could play, while 40k is just simply target priority and when to use strategems for the shooty factions.

Was 40k ever tactically engaging? I always thought it was and 8th has dumbed down a bit but I may be remembering old editions with rose tinted glasses here.

I'd say it was, but a loooooong time ago.

There used to be rules for things like cross-fires, varying speeds of movement, ect. Terrain used to be a huge part of the game; you actually couldn't shoot into / out of 'large' terrain pieces by more than 6 inches, and you couldn't see entirely -through- plenty of terrain pieces no matter how skinny they were.

Think about that; a narrow 2-by-6 strip of trees was LoS blocking terrain that you could force your enemy to move through to engage you, but also prevented you from engaging.

40k has never been a massively hyper realistic simulation. There have never been benefits to shooting or charging into the flanks of infantry squads (other than ignoring cover), but there absolutely used to be much more tactical nuance to the game.

That said, 8th is probably the most balanced 40k has ever been. Which kind of sucks. We've hit the 'golden age' of balance where most armies can compete, and outside of the super high end it's relatively hard to 'lose' before your army hits the table. But, in turn, we've hit a point where most games boil down to 'stand in place and delete units piece meal' with shooting, or just bum-rush and decide the game T1 /T2 with a ton of charges.

For myself, the constant release of NEW rules has driven me off. Without a reasonably costed resource for all the new rules, I never know what people will bring, the new not-formations, points changes, and rule changes.

I’m overwhelmed by the “optional” rules and sources. It’s moving too fast for my time commitment to this game, for me to keep up.

My group used to play once a week, or every other week. I honestly can’t remember the last time I played, and I just like Kill Team better. Faster, less bloat. Feels like a real and proper game to me, where 40k feels more and more like push models, roll dice... who cares? You / I got first turn and despite flooding the table with terrain the player with first turn is clearly going to win based on the results by middle of turn 3. Good game, wanna play something else?