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 Kurgash wrote:
Like wasn't there a recent GT where bonesplitters took 2nd along with a crazy high points killed score?

I was curious, and think I found it or maybe similar >> https://thehonestwargamer.com/aos-list-rundowns/byron-orde-bonesplitterz-team-england-aos6nations2019/

 Amishprn86 wrote:

No, there are still plenty of smaller heroes that are tough. Like the Dragon Ogre Shaggoth 10 wounds 4+ save

The Dragon Ogre Shaggoth is not even remotely small.

Unless you're seriously telling me that AoS has scaled up so much that a model on a 50mm base is considered 'small'.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
or the Ironjawz Megaboss he is 7 wounds 3+ save.

That one I'll give you. But it seems very few armies are lucky to have anything close to that. And unlike WHFB, I can't just buy some good armour or a Ward Save to protect a fragile character. Nor even can I hide him in any meaningful way, since apparently every single medieval archer is the equivalent of a Vindicare Assassin in terms of aiming skills.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Not sure I really agree with this. Some of the monstrous mounts aren't as "tough" as you might think.

Perhaps, but given that LoS is all but nonexistent, the worst case scenario is that they've got 4+ more wounds than the comparable non-mounted (or non-giant) heroes.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

No, there are still plenty of smaller heroes that are tough. Like the Dragon Ogre Shaggoth 10 wounds 4+ save

The Dragon Ogre Shaggoth is not even remotely small.

Unless you're seriously telling me that AoS has scaled up so much that a model on a 50mm base is considered 'small'.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
or the Ironjawz Megaboss he is 7 wounds 3+ save.

That one I'll give you. But it seems very few armies are lucky to have anything close to that. And unlike WHFB, I can't just buy some good armour or a Ward Save to protect a fragile character. Nor even can I hide him in any meaningful way, since apparently every single medieval archer is the equivalent of a Vindicare Assassin in terms of aiming skills.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Not sure I really agree with this. Some of the monstrous mounts aren't as "tough" as you might think.

Perhaps, but given that LoS is all but nonexistent, the worst case scenario is that they've got 4+ more wounds than the comparable non-mounted (or non-giant) heroes.

Shaggoth is small tho.... its not even 4" tall (i think 3 1/2 inch if i can remember correctly from making 2 plastic ones) He looks big in pictures but he actually isnt that big, Dragon Ogres are bigger ( about the same height but much thicker), he is on a 90x50 mm base, its the mid size cavalry base, same one Khorne Jugs are on.

But the point was, there are many "tough" basic heroes that are cheap (120-180pts)

Heroes have look out sir now, making them -1 to hit if they are within 3" of a friendly unit of 3+ models. As for durability, it is a matter of against what. There are tons of heroes that are pretty dam durable until you throw mortal wounds at them, at which point they melt. With the state of AoS it is a complete toss up if the army you go against has difficulty doing that, does that easily, or cannot do that at all.

On the other hand bigger heroes are rarely that durable either. Many monster characters that cost 2-3x the points will die as easily as 2-3 smaller heroes would.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
But the point was, there are many "tough" basic heroes that are cheap (120-180pts)

Being 'cheap' was never my requirement.

For example, in the previous edition, I was happy to spend close to 500pts on a Vampire Lord.

It meant getting an infantry General who was:
- Exceptionally strong in melee (5 attacks at S7, usually with rerolls to hit from ASF, that could generate up to 5 more attacks and forced successful ward saves to be rerolled).
- Had good defence (T5 4+ ward save and 3+ armour when unmounted)
- Was fast (M7 even without wings)
- Was at least a Lv3 Wizard.

In AoS these options simply don't exist. If I take a Vampire Lord now, I get a general who is:
- Mediocre at best in melee (4 attacks that need 3s to hit and wound with only -1 rend and d3 damage, and 0 vampire powers or such to augment them)
- Absolutely pathetic defence with 5 wounds (about as low as hero characters get), a 5+ save and no ward save of any kind. This for a character who, unlike other wizards, can actually wear armour.
- Is hilariously slow without wings (he used to be on par with elves, now he can't even outpace a zombie).
- Is a lowly lv1 caster with no option to add additional wizard levels.

The only way I can upgrade him is by either taking a Zombie Dragon for him (which give him more wounds, a better save, better weapons and, for some reason, an extra spell) or else just giving up entirely and taking Nagash or one of the other special characters.

In other words, the only way to improve a model is to drastically increase its size. I just don't like that philosophy.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
But the point was, there are many "tough" basic heroes that are cheap (120-180pts)

Being 'cheap' was never my requirement.

For example, in the previous edition, I was happy to spend close to 500pts on a Vampire Lord.

It meant getting an infantry General who was:
- Exceptionally strong in melee (5 attacks at S7, usually with rerolls to hit from ASF, that could generate up to 5 more attacks and forced successful ward saves to be rerolled).
- Had good defence (T5 4+ ward save and 3+ armour when unmounted)
- Was fast (M7 even without wings)
- Was at least a Lv3 Wizard.

In AoS these options simply don't exist. If I take a Vampire Lord now, I get a general who is:
- Mediocre at best in melee (4 attacks that need 3s to hit and wound with only -1 rend and d3 damage, and 0 vampire powers or such to augment them)
- Absolutely pathetic defence with 5 wounds (about as low as hero characters get), a 5+ save and no ward save of any kind. This for a character who, unlike other wizards, can actually wear armour.
- Is hilariously slow without wings (he used to be on par with elves, now he can't even outpace a zombie).
- Is a lowly lv1 caster with no option to add additional wizard levels.

The only way I can upgrade him is by either taking a Zombie Dragon for him (which give him more wounds, a better save, better weapons and, for some reason, an extra spell) or else just giving up entirely and taking Nagash or one of the other special characters.

In other words, the only way to improve a model is to drastically increase its size. I just don't like that philosophy.

I know I'm not contributing to the discussion, but: Amen! I'm pondering of getting into AoS myself and this is exactly what I dislike about it. I feel it has much to do with lost flexibility of characters and not necessariliy with sepcial characters/centerpiece models though.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
But the point was, there are many "tough" basic heroes that are cheap (120-180pts)

Being 'cheap' was never my requirement.

For example, in the previous edition, I was happy to spend close to 500pts on a Vampire Lord.

It meant getting an infantry General who was:
- Exceptionally strong in melee (5 attacks at S7, usually with rerolls to hit from ASF, that could generate up to 5 more attacks and forced successful ward saves to be rerolled).
- Had good defence (T5 4+ ward save and 3+ armour when unmounted)
- Was fast (M7 even without wings)
- Was at least a Lv3 Wizard.

In AoS these options simply don't exist. If I take a Vampire Lord now, I get a general who is:
- Mediocre at best in melee (4 attacks that need 3s to hit and wound with only -1 rend and d3 damage, and 0 vampire powers or such to augment them)
- Absolutely pathetic defence with 5 wounds (about as low as hero characters get), a 5+ save and no ward save of any kind. This for a character who, unlike other wizards, can actually wear armour.
- Is hilariously slow without wings (he used to be on par with elves, now he can't even outpace a zombie).
- Is a lowly lv1 caster with no option to add additional wizard levels.

The only way I can upgrade him is by either taking a Zombie Dragon for him (which give him more wounds, a better save, better weapons and, for some reason, an extra spell) or else just giving up entirely and taking Nagash or one of the other special characters.

In other words, the only way to improve a model is to drastically increase its size. I just don't like that philosophy.

You never said any of that from the start, you said "infantry size" and that was it, you didnt say you want a super hero skeleton as your leader there is a difference in that thinking. I played WHFB from 5th till 7th and what you are talking about was Herohammer, which wasnt a thing in every edition or every army, my 3 armies could NOT do that in any edition of WHFB, so you where lucky to have an army that could do that. In AOS no army has 500pts super characters that are skeleton size, AoS is scaled up yes, but badass heroes are badass sized. You can come close with 200pts heroes that are mid size tho, like Deepkin King (the guy on the Seahorse), or Doombull (Minotaur hero).

What you are basically saying is "I miss my old Vampire lord style guy and i cant play him anymore " then yes that is true, but you can get some melee heroes and give them Relics, my BoC Beastlord can deal 18 wounds to heroes (I've done 12 to Alarielle)

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Bonespltters.

No monsters, no special character (Except maybe the JuJu shaman) and biggest thing you get are crazy naked orcs riding boars.

Plus a painted horde does look great and intimidating! (A shame its all bark and no bite currently! Im really hoping BS and Ironjawz get rolled together)

Greenskinz too, if you don't count the Rogue Idol. Only "centerpiece" we got is Warboss on Wyvern, which can be the oldhammer nameless character version or the currnt Azhag The Slaughterer version.

Greenskinz are slowly going to the way of Gitmob Grots and I hope they get combined together in a new battle tome, hopefully something very similar to WHFB Orcs & Goblins. Would love to see Doom Diver Catapult and Grimgor Ironhide make an appearance.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

You never said any of that from the start, you said "infantry size" and that was it,

Yeah, and I realised that I clearly hadn't explained myself very well so I tried to give a better example.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
you didnt say you want a super hero skeleton as your leader there is a difference in that thinking.

That's the thing - I wasn't looking specifically for a skeleton. It just seemed like a good example.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I played WHFB from 5th till 7th and what you are talking about was Herohammer, which wasnt a thing in every edition or every army, my 3 armies could NOT do that in any edition of WHFB, so you where lucky to have an army that could do that.

You'll have to forgive me then. I fear I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of all races or past editions of WHFB.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
In AOS no army has 500pts super characters that are skeleton size, AoS is scaled up yes, but badass heroes are badass sized.

Surely that last part is subjective?

Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this way but I find the idea of 'thig guy is 10 times as powerful so he must be 10 times the size!' to be tedious rather than badass.

Nor do I see why sitting on a dragon gives you greater magical power. Unless magic naturally leaks out of your rear end so you need a dragon there to plug the hole.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You can come close with 200pts heroes that are mid size tho, like Deepkin King (the guy on the Seahorse), or Doombull (Minotaur hero).

Is the Deepkin Guy a special character or a regular hero?

 Amishprn86 wrote:

What you are basically saying is "I miss my old Vampire lord style guy and i cant play him anymore "

No, in that case what I'm saying is 'why did they even bother calling this thing a Vampire Lord when they obliterated everything that made him a Vampire Lord in the first place? Even just dropping the Lord part would mean I couldn't get my hopes up for some sort of epic vampire character, only to be disappointed in every single aspect of him.'

 Amishprn86 wrote:
then yes that is true, but you can get some melee heroes and give them Relics, my BoC Beastlord can deal 18 wounds to heroes (I've done 12 to Alarielle)

I guess that's something.

The Deepkin is normal, there is a special character of him too, but he is kinda tall tho, 50mm base if i remember and 4" tall i think.

But relics can really do a lot, you can make some have -1 to be hit, give them invul save of 3+, make them deal more damage, and you can give them command abilities, some are FnP saves others are re-rolls, and some are more attack, many options. Some heroes with many attacks can have insanely swigy strong relics (hit rolls of 6 deal D6 MW's) i know a couple characters with 2D6 and 3D6 attacks, tho they normally are 1 damage hitting and wound on 4+ and no rend, it doesnt matter if you are fishing for 6's to hit, with re-rolls you can normally get 2 sometimes 3.

You'll have to use an army like Orks/Ironjawz, Khorne, Daemon, Deepkin, Dwarfs, etc.. for melee characters. Armies like Death are more wizard and support base, armies like BoC are both, then you have armies like Sylvaneth that small guys are only support and big guys are melee monsters. Bonespliterz and Ironsjaws both are high mid tier for comp (can win events) and both has strong melee characters, but some characters are super good at casting, like 3 spells, given the right relic they can cast an endless, some MW's and even fly. You can tailor many heroes to your likely but htey will not be super strong super heroes unless you go with the big boys.


Sorry if that isnt what you wanted, but AOS is for sure more upscaled than fantasy but it still has many small unit types, ungors, clanrats, skeletons. But important single models are for sure bigger. And newer sculpts are for sure bigger too.


With that said, you can have Infantry size heroes do wonders, everyone is scared of the Gavespawn Beastlord, bc he can sniper out characters like i is nothing, but he himself is only 90pts 4+ save 5 wounds. I know im repeating myself know so i'll stop talking.

You are right; heroes can't be kitted out like they used to be. The best you can get is a powerful command trait and a powerful artifact on the same guy but oftentimes that is a waste as compared to putting them on a stronger character in the first place (one that, as you say, will be bigger). I miss the customization too, it is among the aspects I miss most from WHFB.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
then yes that is true, but you can get some melee heroes and give them Relics, my BoC Beastlord can deal 18 wounds to heroes (I've done 12 to Alarielle)

I guess that's something.

Note that 18 wounds requires every one of the beastlord's 6 attacks to go through and that the average damage dealt to a 3+ save model (Alarielle) is 6.2. That said beastlord with the gnarlblade artifact is still extremely potent; average damage to a 4+ save hero is 8.3 (the beastlord re-rolls all wounds against heroes), enough to reliably kill most foot heroes in a single combat phase or put a sizable dent in a larger one.

The combo comes from a BoC sub-faction; Gavespawn. They must take an artifact that gives +2 damage but every hit roll of 1 does 1MW to the weilder. Since the beastlord re-rolls hits of 1 innately and only costs 90 points it is more or less auto-take for every gavespawn army but means you have to pick that sub-faction for your army to get it. It is also just a 5W 4+ armor save hero. He's kind of like the old goblin hero with the one hit wunda; dies easily but more often than not takes well more than his points worth down first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now if you want a really high damage hero you take a Knight of Shrouds (on foot) in Legion of Blood, make him the general with the swift strikes command trait and give him the sword of judgement. Use his command ability, and get him re-roll 1s to hit from one of the half-dozen sources he has access to that buff from.

4 attacks, rerollable 2+ to hit, every 5+ to hit generates another attack and against heroes/monsters does an additional d6 mortal wounds (on top of hitting normally). Wounds on a 3+, rend -1, 2 damage. Still only a 5w hero, but he has a 4+ save ignoring modifiers (so no cover bonus, but also ignores all rend), a 6+ fnp from allegiance, and heals a wound every time he kills a hero. Added bonus is there's a support hero (Spirit Torment) that both gives re-roll hits of 1 and can provide further healing.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
The Deepkin is normal, there is a special character of him too, but he is kinda tall tho, 50mm base if i remember and 4" tall i think.

But relics can really do a lot, you can make some have -1 to be hit, give them invul save of 3+, make them deal more damage, and you can give them command abilities, some are FnP saves others are re-rolls, and some are more attack, many options. Some heroes with many attacks can have insanely swigy strong relics (hit rolls of 6 deal D6 MW's) i know a couple characters with 2D6 and 3D6 attacks, tho they normally are 1 damage hitting and wound on 4+ and no rend, it doesnt matter if you are fishing for 6's to hit, with re-rolls you can normally get 2 sometimes 3.

Regarding Relics, a lot of them seem kinda... weak.

Maybe I'd think differently if I'd played the game, but so many defensive Relics just seem to be stuff like +1 Wound or 6+ FNP. The latter especially doesn't exactly seem reliable for keeping a hero alive. A 5-wound hero could roll completely average dice and still not see that 6+ before it's too late.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

You'll have to use an army like Orks/Ironjawz, Khorne, Daemon, Deepkin, Dwarfs, etc.. for melee characters. Armies like Death are more wizard and support base, armies like BoC are both, then you have armies like Sylvaneth that small guys are only support and big guys are melee monsters. Bonespliterz and Ironsjaws both are high mid tier for comp (can win events) and both has strong melee characters, but some characters are super good at casting, like 3 spells, given the right relic they can cast an endless, some MW's and even fly. You can tailor many heroes to your likely but htey will not be super strong super heroes unless you go with the big boys.

That's a little disappointing but I appreciate you taking the time to explain it to me.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Sorry if that isnt what you wanted, but AOS is for sure more upscaled than fantasy but it still has many small unit types, ungors, clanrats, skeletons. But important single models are for sure bigger. And newer sculpts are for sure bigger too.

With that said, you can have Infantry size heroes do wonders, everyone is scared of the Gavespawn Beastlord, bc he can sniper out characters like i is nothing, but he himself is only 90pts 4+ save 5 wounds. I know im repeating myself know so i'll stop talking.

Out of interest, what about heroes that are more on the caster side?

In terms of Beast of Chaos, I'll admit that the Tzaangor Shaman caught my eye. It has quite a nice model, though I don't know if it's a lot bigger than it looks. Are Tzaangors any good?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You are right; heroes can't be kitted out like they used to be. The best you can get is a powerful command trait and a powerful artifact on the same guy but oftentimes that is a waste as compared to putting them on a stronger character in the first place (one that, as you say, will be bigger). I miss the customization too, it is among the aspects I miss most from WHFB.

Yeah, this is one of the things I was worried about. I don't want to feel like I'm screwing myself over by not taking one of the big units in an army.


quote=NinthMusketeer 777263 10498913 90f12b2ac611d905c7a0947bb2b7b1bd.png]
Note that 18 wounds requires every one of the beastlord's 6 attacks to go through and that the average damage dealt to a 3+ save model (Alarielle) is 6.2. That said beastlord with the gnarlblade artifact is still extremely potent; average damage to a 4+ save hero is 8.3 (the beastlord re-rolls all wounds against heroes), enough to reliably kill most foot heroes in a single combat phase or put a sizable dent in a larger one.

The combo comes from a BoC sub-faction; Gavespawn. They must take an artifact that gives +2 damage but every hit roll of 1 does 1MW to the weilder. Since the beastlord re-rolls hits of 1 innately and only costs 90 points it is more or less auto-take for every gavespawn army but means you have to pick that sub-faction for your army to get it. It is also just a 5W 4+ armor save hero. He's kind of like the old goblin hero with the one hit wunda; dies easily but more often than not takes well more than his points worth down first.


Now if you want a really high damage hero you take a Knight of Shrouds (on foot) in Legion of Blood, make him the general with the swift strikes command trait and give him the sword of judgement. Use his command ability, and get him re-roll 1s to hit from one of the half-dozen sources he has access to that buff from.

4 attacks, rerollable 2+ to hit, every 5+ to hit generates another attack and against heroes/monsters does an additional d6 mortal wounds (on top of hitting normally). Wounds on a 3+, rend -1, 2 damage. Still only a 5w hero, but he has a 4+ save ignoring modifiers (so no cover bonus, but also ignores all rend), a 6+ fnp from allegiance, and heals a wound every time he kills a hero. Added bonus is there's a support hero (Spirit Torment) that both gives re-roll hits of 1 and can provide further healing.

Nighthaunt heroes are innately tougher than others; ignoring modifiers means no cover but also no rend, which works out considerably in their favor. They also have the same 6+ fnp all death factions get. The spirit torment offers healing on top of that.

The guardian of souls specifically is essential for Nighthaunt armies; he is their main caster and has an extremely strong aura buff. I usually see two being taken. Since his role has him hanging in the middle of a bunch of infantry with a spirit torment right next to him so they can stack buff auras he is in practice among the most difficult 5w heroes to kill. I know because I've been in the position of trying to many times.

There are a lot of amazing relics tho, you'll have to think of AOS as nothing like 40k. AoS the average unit is a basic Guardsmen without the gun (4+ to hit, 4+ to wound, 5+ save) 3+ is basically terminator armor for sigmar. Combine that with damage splashed into the unit (for 6 damage from 1 attack can kill 6 guys, tho i wish each guy got a save) given all that, the relics are for sure more powerful than you would think. Tho some of them are not that strong, many will becomes stronger when you get used to the game.

I'd say that on average 1/3 of the artifacts in an allegiance are bad enough to not be worth taking. Half the artifacts aren't bad but are more for fluff/theme because they aren't as good as the top artifacts. The remaining 1/6 is artifacts that are actually good, but get filtered again because they tend to be best used with certain units/models which themselves may be good or bad.

In practice about 1 in 10 artifacts will see regular use (IMO). Given the hundreds of them out there that is still a lot.

OH.. dont Fyreslayers have a strong hero now? I havent look much at the book. I just know their 1 good trick and fight around that.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Nighthaunt heroes are innately tougher than others; ignoring modifiers means no cover but also no rend, which works out considerably in their favor. They also have the same 6+ fnp all death factions get. The spirit torment offers healing on top of that.

The guardian of souls specifically is essential for Nighthaunt armies; he is their main caster and has an extremely strong aura buff. I usually see two being taken. Since his role has him hanging in the middle of a bunch of infantry with a spirit torment right next to him so they can stack buff auras he is in practice among the most difficult 5w heroes to kill. I know because I've been in the position of trying to many times.

Interesting.

I'll admit that he certainly sounds like my cup of tea from a mechanical perspective. Not sure about his model, though.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I'd say that on average 1/3 of the artifacts in an allegiance are bad enough to not be worth taking. Half the artifacts aren't bad but are more for fluff/theme because they aren't as good as the top artifacts. The remaining 1/6 is artifacts that are actually good, but get filtered again because they tend to be best used with certain units/models which themselves may be good or bad.

In practice about 1 in 10 artifacts will see regular use (IMO). Given the hundreds of them out there that is still a lot.

Are there any types of artefacts that tend to be worth taking? As in, is it usually best to aim for defensive artefacts, offensive ones, ones that improve casting etc.? Or is there no set rule for which one is 'best'?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
There are a lot of amazing relics tho, you'll have to think of AOS as nothing like 40k. AoS the average unit is a basic Guardsmen without the gun (4+ to hit, 4+ to wound, 5+ save) 3+ is basically terminator armor for sigmar. Combine that with damage splashed into the unit (for 6 damage from 1 attack can kill 6 guys, tho i wish each guy got a save) given all that, the relics are for sure more powerful than you would think. Tho some of them are not that strong, many will becomes stronger when you get used to the game.

That's fair. I'm probably just mentally comparing them to either the 40k artefacts or the old WHFB artefacts.

Going back to what I asked before, are Tzaangor Shamans (or Tzaangors in general) any good?

I would lean towards defensive/support artifacts being better; heroes with artifacts are targets already after all. However that isn't a hard rule.

Tzaangor anything is good.