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Made in gb
Boosting Ultramarine Biker





Holy Terra

 Lance845 wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
All those things improved the game by removing needless book keeping, measuring, and making it more tactical for players.

How often do you play? Why don't you play 30k if you hate everything new?


1) he doesn't have to give you reasons to state his opinions.

2) 40k is about as tactical as monopoly. In that there is only 1 tactic.


What's the one tactic? I've won games in multiple different ways so clearly there isn't just one.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






 Ishagu wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
All those things improved the game by removing needless book keeping, measuring, and making it more tactical for players.

How often do you play? Why don't you play 30k if you hate everything new?


1) he doesn't have to give you reasons to state his opinions.

2) 40k is about as tactical as monopoly. In that there is only 1 tactic.


What's the one tactic? I've won games in multiple different ways so clearly there isn't just one.


No you didn't. You spent the entire game doing the single most obviously good thing to do with the units and positions you had. You shot your big guns at the targets they are best at, with as many dice as possible to get the best odds of removing a model. I am sure you had different STRATEGIES in that you built different lists with different overall plans and combos. But you never once won a game with different tactics. 40k doesn't have any tactics. There was never once a time where you had to guess your opponents plans and try to subvert them, or lead them into a trap by baiting them, or anything else. You just shot all your guns to strip off as many models as possible as quickly as possible.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/11 13:30:21



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in gb
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





Static gunlines with plenty of CP and re-roll aura shenanigans spread liberally throughout would be my guess?

Please note, for those of you who play Chaos Daemons as a faction the term "Daemon" is potentially offensive. Instead, please play codex "Chaos: Mortally Challenged". Thank you. 
   
Made in is
Courageous Beastmaster




Iceland

40k doesn't have any tactics.


Depends entirely how you define tactics. If I were to presume your idea of tactic based on what you have written then no boardgame has any tactics, and that is all well and good. We all have our differing opinions and definitions.

Now, if you consider acting accordingly, reacting strategically, and such tactics, then yes, 40k has tactics.

There was never once a time where you had to guess your opponents plans and try to subvert them, or lead them into a trap by baiting them, or anything else.


Strangely enough these are things I have done in Warhammer.

You shot your big guns at the targets they are best at, with as many dice as possible to get the best odds of removing a model.


I think this sincerely is the problem you are encountering. You are playing kill point missions and they are indeed very one dimensional and boring. One of the reasons I've stopped playing them.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/07/11 13:40:14


Cypher | Craftworlds | Drukhari | Dark Angels | Necrons | Emperor's Children(30k/40k) | Tyranids | Orks | Death Guard

Daughters of Khaine | Blades of Khorne | Stormcast Eternals | Flesh-Eater Courts
 
   
Made in gb
Boosting Ultramarine Biker





Holy Terra

 Lance845 wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
All those things improved the game by removing needless book keeping, measuring, and making it more tactical for players.

How often do you play? Why don't you play 30k if you hate everything new?


1) he doesn't have to give you reasons to state his opinions.

2) 40k is about as tactical as monopoly. In that there is only 1 tactic.


What's the one tactic? I've won games in multiple different ways so clearly there isn't just one.


No you didn't. You spent the entire game doing the single most obviously good thing to do with the units and positions you had. You shot your big guns at the targets they are best at, with as many dice as possible to get the best odds of removing a model. I am sure you had different STRATEGIES in that you built different lists with different overall plans and combos. But you never once won a game with different tactics. 40k doesn't have any tactics. There was never once a time where you had to guess your opponents plans and try to subvert them, or lead them into a trap by baiting them, or anything else. You just shot all your guns to strip off as many models as possible as quickly as possible.


Oh my sweet, summer child. I feel bad for your limited experience with the game. You'd had a very poor, one dimensional experience which doesn't reflect the full scope of the game. Fid yourelf a better group and play some missions on tables with good terrain and LoS blocking.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






 Eldarsif wrote:
40k doesn't have any tactics.


Depends entirely how you define tactics. If I were to presume your idea of tactic based on what you have written then no boardgame has any tactics, and that is all well and good. We all have our differing opinions and definitions.

Now, if you consider acting accordingly, reacting strategically, and such tactics, then yes, 40k has tactics.

There was never once a time where you had to guess your opponents plans and try to subvert them, or lead them into a trap by baiting them, or anything else.


Strangely enough these are things I have done in Warhammer.


Tactics doesn't have a nebulous user defined definition. Strategy and Tactics are 2 different things. Strategy is your pre battle plan. Tactics is what you do in the "heat of battle". For 40k to be tactical there needs to be a lot of uncertainty about your choices so that you and the opponent are playing each other instead of the math of the models. 40k is very mathmatical, sure. It's VERY based on probabilities and and efficiencies and so on. But because you act with your entire army all at once without them being able to make any meaningful response you have no choice to make but to kill as much as possible while sitting on whatever objectives you could reach. Or I guess you could not do that and loose, but I mean making suicidal choices are not really tactical when there is no benefit.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in us
Grizzled MkII Monster Veteran





Mississippi

Played last Sunday, primaris vs. Chaos. We only played half a game though, because we had to pack it up for our biweekly D&D game. Can’t rightly remember when the last game prior to that was, though I remember it was Chaos vs. Admech vs. Orks. Want to say it was about three months ago.

It never ends well 
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






 Ishagu wrote:

Oh my sweet, summer child. I feel bad for your limited experience with the game. You'd had a very poor, one dimensional experience which doesn't reflect the full scope of the game. Fid yourelf a better group and play some missions on tables with good terrain and LoS blocking.


The dumbest gak in the world is thinking that because LoS blocking terrain exists for the all or nothing binary switch of "I can shoot you/I can't shoot you" that the game suddenly gains some measure of depth. 40k needs better terrain rules for it to matter. Apoc has better terrain rules simply because of obscured and garrisoning. 40k has nothing but your toggle switch. That doesn't add tactics.

Look, I am glad you have fun with your bad game. But that doesn't stop it from having no tactics. It's fine you enjoy it. Enjoy it. Really. No sarcasm. Have all the fun. But don't pretend it has features it doesn't just because you like it.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






Guys, you're fighting against a garden variety GW white knight. You'll get nowhere.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

If you break apart my posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I've quit 40k. Kill Team is closer to the game 40k I started playing.

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


Freelance Ontologist

When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
Made in gb
Boosting Ultramarine Biker





Holy Terra

 Grimtuff wrote:
Guys, you're fighting against a garden variety GW white knight. You'll get nowhere.


I don't hate the hobby I invest my time in. I value my time, and I certainly wouldn't waste it going online to complain about something. I guess I have a better and more fulfilled life than some on this forum.
If you don't like the hobby go and do something else. Problem solved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lance845 wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:

Oh my sweet, summer child. I feel bad for your limited experience with the game. You'd had a very poor, one dimensional experience which doesn't reflect the full scope of the game. Fid yourelf a better group and play some missions on tables with good terrain and LoS blocking.


The dumbest gak in the world is thinking that because LoS blocking terrain exists for the all or nothing binary switch of "I can shoot you/I can't shoot you" that the game suddenly gains some measure of depth. 40k needs better terrain rules for it to matter. Apoc has better terrain rules simply because of obscured and garrisoning. 40k has nothing but your toggle switch. That doesn't add tactics.

Look, I am glad you have fun with your bad game. But that doesn't stop it from having no tactics. It's fine you enjoy it. Enjoy it. Really. No sarcasm. Have all the fun. But don't pretend it has features it doesn't just because you like it.


You're wrong, it's that plain and simple. A good player will beat a less experienced player with the same list. Why is that? Because he has better understanding of his army and makes more beneficial tactical choices in a game. You evidently don't actually play the game very much. Subscribe to warhammer TV and watch some tournament games.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/11 13:54:16


-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in is
Courageous Beastmaster




Iceland

Tactics doesn't have a nebulous user defined definition. Strategy and Tactics are 2 different things. Strategy is your pre battle plan. Tactics is what you do in the "heat of battle". For 40k to be tactical there needs to be a lot of uncertainty about your choices so that you and the opponent are playing each other instead of the math of the models. 40k is very mathmatical, sure. It's VERY based on probabilities and and efficiencies and so on. But because you act with your entire army all at once without them being able to make any meaningful response you have no choice to make but to kill as much as possible while sitting on whatever objectives you could reach. Or I guess you could not do that and loose, but I mean making suicidal choices are not really tactical when there is no benefit.


Again, by those definitions no boardgame has the capacity to be tactical because they are all mathematical at the core.

I mean making suicidal choices are not really tactical when there is no benefit.


But you sometimes sacrifice units into combat to tie up a unit to ensure you are able to pull other shenanigans. You also try to goad your opponent in committing firepower and forces in areas where you will eventually have something to gain elsewhere or gives you an opening to exploit.

I'll be honest that I have no idea of what your definition of tactic is or whether there exists game that can provide it and I do sincerely fear that this is a game of goalpost moving, which is a debate tactic I have as much interest in as I do for hernia.

Only thing I know is that I need to read my opponent, I have to goad him into doing mistakes, and I have to - as strangely as that might sound - outmaneuver him. At this point I just feel like we are playing completely different games and therefore speaking two different languages.

To be fair it does sound like you are playing against the AI since the outcomes are so pre-calculated. Actually, now that I think about it your problem might be that you only have a single opponent or two you are fighting against and therefore do not have the human opponent pool to be challenged. Did that mistake a lot in 6th and 7th. Played a lot of games against a single opponent(who played Ultramarines) so when I started fighting other people I had gotten into such a routine that I thought everybody would play like my good friend K(not an MIB agent). In fact, my approach became similar to yours, sitting on objectives and shooting stuff because I had gotten accustomed to K's tactics(I enjoyed the game, but admit that it had lost some of its dimension). However, as soon as I played other people who were not my good friend K things got drastically different. My friend started to do the same and has upped his game considerably and now our games are fun again.

Never underestimate the value of having a varied pool of players people. They provide you with so much difference and variety that keeps the game fresh. So cultivate that local pool of opponent, you'll be grateful later on.

Cypher | Craftworlds | Drukhari | Dark Angels | Necrons | Emperor's Children(30k/40k) | Tyranids | Orks | Death Guard

Daughters of Khaine | Blades of Khorne | Stormcast Eternals | Flesh-Eater Courts
 
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






A more experienced player beats a new player because s/he understands the math better. Or just because they went first. Because first turn advantage decides like 65% of all games.

Tactical depth!


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule





 Lance845 wrote:
A more experienced player beats a new player because s/he understands the math better. Or just because they went first. Because first turn advantage decides like 65% of all games.

Tactical depth!


But in the big tournament scene you see same best players regularly making it to top tables. There's way more to it than you're implying here. Not to mentioning the probabilities can get very complicated, and managing that on the fly as things change is a skill in itself.
   
Made in gb
Boosting Ultramarine Biker





Holy Terra

Removed - BrookM

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/11 14:45:05


-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






Math is a skill. I agree with that.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule





 Lance845 wrote:
Math is a skill. I agree with that.


Especially under the pressure of a tournament setting.
   
Made in ie
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle






Slipspace wrote:
Maelstrom makes the game more tactical?


Can you expound on this please?

 
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






 Stux wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Math is a skill. I agree with that.


Especially under the pressure of a tournament setting.


1) tournaments are not the game. The game is equally tactical in my garage.

2) math doesnt make it tactical. It makes it predictable. People who are better at the math will make more accurate predictions.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Eldarsif wrote:
Tactics doesn't have a nebulous user defined definition. Strategy and Tactics are 2 different things. Strategy is your pre battle plan. Tactics is what you do in the "heat of battle". For 40k to be tactical there needs to be a lot of uncertainty about your choices so that you and the opponent are playing each other instead of the math of the models. 40k is very mathmatical, sure. It's VERY based on probabilities and and efficiencies and so on. But because you act with your entire army all at once without them being able to make any meaningful response you have no choice to make but to kill as much as possible while sitting on whatever objectives you could reach. Or I guess you could not do that and loose, but I mean making suicidal choices are not really tactical when there is no benefit.


Again, by those definitions no boardgame has the capacity to be tactical because they are all mathematical at the core.


That's completely untrue. Many, many boardgames contain large amounts of hidden information which makes them more than just a mathematical exercise. There are elements of psychology or risk management in many "tactical" boardgames as a result of this. The problem in 40k is that all information is open information, so baiting or goading opponents depends almost entirely on them not being good enough to understand what's happening.
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule





 Lance845 wrote:
 Stux wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Math is a skill. I agree with that.


Especially under the pressure of a tournament setting.


1) tournaments are not the game. The game is equally tactical in my garage.

2) math doesnt make it tactical. It makes it predictable. People who are better at the math will make more accurate predictions.


You are grossly simplifying things here. It's not predictable because it changes, and what you do and how your opponent behaves will affect the maths later.

I sense you are under the impression that any given situation is in some way solvable. That is really not the case. If you think you are playing optimally all the time, you are likely really not and not factoring in a lot of things.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/11 14:19:47


 
   
Made in gb
Boosting Ultramarine Biker





Holy Terra

40k is more than a mathematical exercise. I can win objectives and thus games without rolling dice.


-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 nurgle5 wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
Maelstrom makes the game more tactical?


Can you expound on this please?


It's in response to another poster's comment that all of the bad things about 40k someone listed actually make the game more tactical. I was pointing out that Maelstrom (one of the bad points) doesn't make the game more tactical. It makes it more random, which can help to at least alter set battleplans but it's often far too random to reward tactical play and can lead to wins through sheer luck of the draw.
   
Made in gb
Boosting Ultramarine Biker





Holy Terra

Who says you have to play Maelstrom?
I play it at fun, casual games.

Ironically 7th edition was far more about maths and worked around invincible units that were mathematically near impossible to destroy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/11 14:22:28


-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





A trick question, actually. I've played regularly since 3rd edition, but since 5th my group has adopted our own set of house rules.

So yes, I play 40K, but no I don't play GW's latest iteration of the game...and most likely never will again.
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






Slipspace wrote:
 nurgle5 wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
Maelstrom makes the game more tactical?


Can you expound on this please?


It's in response to another poster's comment that all of the bad things about 40k someone listed actually make the game more tactical. I was pointing out that Maelstrom (one of the bad points) doesn't make the game more tactical. It makes it more random, which can help to at least alter set battleplans but it's often far too random to reward tactical play and can lead to wins through sheer luck of the draw.


Agreed. Maelstrom is like one of the dumbest ideas ever put forth into 40k. I'm fine with the card aspect of having secondary (sometimes secret) objectives, 2nd ed had it and they were great. But the fact they change from turn to turn when IRL a full game of 40k would be about 5 minutes of combat is daft.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

If you break apart my posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ottawa Ontario Canada

8th ed is hot garbage, only thing left is 30k until they ruin that.

Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in gb
Boosting Ultramarine Biker





Holy Terra

Maelstrom is only dumb if you can't enjoy games where the result doesn't matter. If you must win then no, it's too random.

It can be a lot of fun to try and work around Maelstrom missions with the cards directing play in unexpected ways. It's strictly casual, but it's fun.

Hey, did you guys know that not every game is played at a tournament? Means you don't have to just care about the result.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/11 14:25:14


-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in ie
Missionary On A Mission





I kind of agree with both sides here honestly (however off topic it may be).

Ishagu IS a white knight but he's right in that saying there's NO depth to 40k is incorrect, otherwise you wouldn't be able to sit back at the end of a game and analyze your mistakes or say "I should have done that instead of this and then this might have happened".

Lance845 isn't a troll but he IS a vocal minority who is refusing to acknowledge that knowing the averages of dice doesn't mean you automatically win the game, because Mathhammer is a trap believed only by those who don't play the game often enough to have their dice swing either great for or against you at critical moments and then having to switch your plans around to compensate for that.

Maelstrom objectives are the same in that I've won games because I managed to get a clutch objective score or what have you. At the end of the day different people can like different things, I feel that if you're on here complaining that 40k isn't to your liking you should go and play Warmachine or something because really 40k is about having fun in the setting, not about super serious competition. Also stop going on about how 30k is so much better because games set during the Heresy is a mistake and space marines as a playable army are literally the worst thing about the whole setting.

Anyway this is all off topic.

Yes I've played 40k in the last year, but not lately (the last two months) because I'm moving house and haven't had the time or petrol money or what have you.

   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






 Ishagu wrote:
Maelstrom is only dumb if you can't enjoy games where the result doesn't matter. If you must win then no, it's too random.

It can be a lot of fun to try and work around Maelstrom missions with the cards directing play in unexpected ways. It's strictly casual, but it's fun.

Hey, did you guys know that not every game is played at a tournament? Means you don't have to just care about the result.


IOW proof you know literally nothing about me or how I play.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/11 15:03:10




A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

If you break apart my posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
 
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