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Breton wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

Stux wrote:
Which is not what he wrote. And, I realise that this may be nitpicking, yes other units can shoot your unit now locked in combat if they use pistols. Which, IIRRC, all marines come with.

Only if the unit with Pistols is also in combat with the unit attacking the Pod, right?

I think that's close but not quite - and depends on how literal you are with the rules. Technically - a model with a pistol can fire it's pistol, but only ever at the closest unit and can still shoot if other friendly models within 1" of their target enemy unit. It's implied this is in addition to normal shooting and/or when the firing model/unit is within that 1" zone, but this isn't specified. Close Combat isn't required either, though it would be a rare case where models are within 1" of each other and not in close combat.

Yeah, unless I'm being really dense here, I can't really see any circumstances where you're going to be able to target a unit with pistols unless you're already in CC with that unit.

The closest unit could still be several inches away, it’s fairly common to shoot the unit before you charge it. Not here of course, you don’t care if you kill the drop pod, and get defended if you don’t unless the other player comes over to counter charge you.

'A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit, but it must target the closest enemy unit. In such circumstances, the model can shoot its Pistol even if other friendly units are within 1" of the same enemy unit.'

As per 'in such circumstances' the latter part of this rule only applies if the conditions of the first part (shooting when there are enemy units within 1"). So no shooting into combat involving enemy units unless you're also in that combat, surely?

 Nazrak wrote:

Yeah, unless I'm being really dense here, I can't really see any circumstances where you're going to be able to target a unit with pistols unless you're already in CC with that unit.

Tell me, the three CSM with chainswords and bolt pistols, closer to the ratlings than the BA, who do they have to shoot, when firing their pistols ? Do they have to shoot the BA, who are within 1" of their unit ?

I don't think that was the rule Drop Pods needed.

You can still charge them or pile into them and be safe from shooting.

Riptides will pile into Drop Pods and be safe.
Knights will kill the stuff coming out of drop pods, pile in and be safe.
Ravagers will charge into Drop Pods and be safe.
Genestealers and GSC Cult stuff will gently touch a drop pod with the last model out of 20+ and be safe.
Plaguebearer blobs will just touch a Drop Pod and be safe.

If you bring Drop Pods, you're basically giving your opponent some free Slaanesh Mirrors/Fiends/Wyches to safe themselves into close combat without needing to wrap models.

 Nazrak wrote:


The closest unit could still be several inches away, it’s fairly common to shoot the unit before you charge it. Not here of course, you don’t care if you kill the drop pod, and get defended if you don’t unless the other player comes over to counter charge you.

'A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit, but it must target the closest enemy unit. In such circumstances, the model can shoot its Pistol even if other friendly units are within 1" of the same enemy unit.'

As per 'in such circumstances' the latter part of this rule only applies if the conditions of the first part (shooting when there are enemy units within 1"). So no shooting into combat involving enemy units unless you're also in that combat, surely?

Right, firstly if I attribute something to someone else I apologise.

Right pistols. As long as I target the closest unit I can fire a pistol at a unit even if it is within 1" of a friendly model. Whether that is RaI, I leave it open, however RaW its rather open to abuse but I can shoot models as long as they are the closest target. (P5) your example, does not allow them to target the unit of BA and so must target the ratlings.

Breton, the original post that I replied to only stated that charging the doors would challenge control of the objective, there was no mention of piling into the centre of the model. Also in one of the other review threads, I seem to recall someone saying that SM got a new stratagem where rather than rolling for an explosion a model with POTMS could decide to auto explode.

Pods in on first turn for real?

Grav Cannons in Pods is back, baby!

Multiple factions already can turn 1 Ds. I'm actually a big fan of units being able to; in fact I'm a fan of units doing basically anything....as long as they pay the required point cost that more or less fair.

This fixes my issue with DMC and da jump imo, where the drop pod acts as a tax for a unit rather then a limited but free spell/relic. This way if it's to busted the resolution is simple, up the cost of pods in chapter approved until there fair.

It's an obvious rules favoritism, but also pretty innocent one. Pods can still probably harm marine player more than the enemy. Unless GW would start making 10 men Primaris pods, it's harmless.

Just compare it to other infiltration or move enhancing options - marines don't actually need pods to do turn 1 charges or shoot what they want I think.

Ozomoto wrote:
Multiple factions already can turn 1 Ds.

Which factions are those??

 Argive wrote:

Ozomoto wrote:
Multiple factions already can turn 1 Ds.

Which factions are those??

Orks, GK, Necrons, Thousand sons.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Argive wrote:

Ozomoto wrote:
Multiple factions already can turn 1 Ds.

Which factions are those??

Orks, GK, Necrons, Thousand sons.

To be clear, these are:

Orks- Psychic Power
GK- Psychic Power
Necrons- Relic (?)
Thousand Sons- Relic

Correct? And they must already have these units on the table?

Those also don't cost 67 points. You really underestimate how much that adds up in a list don't you?

They do... you have to pay the points to take the characters to do thos ethings and or CP for relics... Nobody gets a free ride my friend.
And none of those things are the same as true DS where the units are protected in case you don't go first..

You really under estimate how much of board control advantage it gives you to DS a big ass footprint model plus payload T1 don't you?

 Argive wrote:
They do... you have to pay the points to take the characters to do thos ethings and or CP for relics... Nobody gets a free ride my friend.
And none of those things are the same as true DS where the units are protected in case you don't go first..

You really under estimate how much of board control advantage it gives you to DS a big ass footprint model plus payload T1 don't you?

No because it could be done before 1-2 editions ago, and all the complaints were the non-Marine units using them.

At most there is gonna be complaints about Grav Devastators. That's really it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Argive wrote:
They do... you have to pay the points to take the characters to do thos ethings and or CP for relics... Nobody gets a free ride my friend.
And none of those things are the same as true DS where the units are protected in case you don't go first..

You really under estimate how much of board control advantage it gives you to DS a big ass footprint model plus payload T1 don't you?

No because it could be done before 1-2 editions ago, and all the complaints were the non-Marine units using them.

At most there is gonna be complaints about Grav Devastators. That's really it.

For now.

Then the new Primaris Drop pod arrives, say, the 'Inductinator', and you can suddenly drop in more.

"Insertinator"
"Interdelivenator"
"Interdictor"
"Interderpder"

 Carnikang wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Argive wrote:
They do... you have to pay the points to take the characters to do thos ethings and or CP for relics... Nobody gets a free ride my friend.
And none of those things are the same as true DS where the units are protected in case you don't go first..

You really under estimate how much of board control advantage it gives you to DS a big ass footprint model plus payload T1 don't you?

No because it could be done before 1-2 editions ago, and all the complaints were the non-Marine units using them.

At most there is gonna be complaints about Grav Devastators. That's really it.

For now.

Then the new Primaris Drop pod arrives, say, the 'Inductinator', and you can suddenly drop in more.

which proably won't occur before the next codex so... *shrugs*

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Argive wrote:
They do... you have to pay the points to take the characters to do thos ethings and or CP for relics... Nobody gets a free ride my friend.
And none of those things are the same as true DS where the units are protected in case you don't go first..

You really under estimate how much of board control advantage it gives you to DS a big ass footprint model plus payload T1 don't you?

No because it could be done before 1-2 editions ago, and all the complaints were the non-Marine units using them.

At most there is gonna be complaints about Grav Devastators. That's really it.

Ok so we went to "but what about 2 edition ago"...
I never played 2 editions ago. I play now. And I'm only interested in this edition and I'm calling what I'm seeing bud. And what I'm seeing is strict mechanic breaking rule available to only one faction.

No single thing is breaking the game, all of those things together though??
Forgive me for not buying the "it doesn't matter because marines suck anyway".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
"Insertinator"
"Interdelivenator"
"Interdictor"
"Interderpder"

Dakkapulsor

 Argive wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Argive wrote:
They do... you have to pay the points to take the characters to do thos ethings and or CP for relics... Nobody gets a free ride my friend.
And none of those things are the same as true DS where the units are protected in case you don't go first..

You really under estimate how much of board control advantage it gives you to DS a big ass footprint model plus payload T1 don't you?

No because it could be done before 1-2 editions ago, and all the complaints were the non-Marine units using them.

At most there is gonna be complaints about Grav Devastators. That's really it.

Ok so we went to "but what about 2 edition ago"...
I never played 2 editions ago. I play now. And I'm only interested in this edition and I'm calling what I'm seeing bud. And what I'm seeing is strict mechanic breaking rule available to only one faction.

No single thing is breaking the game, all of those things together though??
Forgive me for not buying the "it doesn't matter because marines suck anyway".

I would advise you to withhold judgement until we see how it all works together. I've played 40K long eneugh to know that first glance of a codex via spoilers may not tell the full story. every codex via the previews looks awesome. remember a lotta the guys who get a codex early and publish reviews are VENDORS. they have a vested intreast in upselling the product

BrianDavion wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

For now.

Then the new Primaris Drop pod arrives, say, the 'Inductinator', and you can suddenly drop in more.

which proably won't occur before the next codex so... *shrugs*

They might release it as a White-Dwarf datasheet, or as a free PDF online so anyone of the SM armies can use it. You never know, we live in a magical time of not knowing what's to come next.

or they might release a ork unit thats horriably broken, or a necron unit, or an eldar unit, or a guard unit or a... you get the idea. worrying about what they could randomly put out is a waste of time

 AndrewC wrote:


Breton, the original post that I replied to only stated that charging the doors would challenge control of the objective,

Charging the doors probably would. The doors aren't that long. You're probably within 3" if you're in the triangle between the doors and not in base contact yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Pods in on first turn for real?

Grav Cannons in Pods is back, baby!

Grav Cannons came down in price too, from what I've heard. But they're still S5, and -3 for D3 (average2) at best. vs S7/8 -3 D1/D2 for plasma. I think I'd rather wound on 3's and 4's than get two more shots, 1 and a third more hits.

Breton wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:


Breton, the original post that I replied to only stated that charging the doors would challenge control of the objective,

Charging the doors probably would. The doors aren't that long. You're probably within 3" if you're in the triangle between the doors and not in base contact yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Pods in on first turn for real?

Grav Cannons in Pods is back, baby!

Grav Cannons came down in price too, from what I've heard. But they're still S5, and -3 for D3 (average2) at best. vs S7/8 -3 D1/D2 for plasma. I think I'd rather wound on 3's and 4's than get two more shots, 1 and a third more hits.

Theres a strat that lets you re-roll wounds and damage rolls for grav cannons... so.....

 Argive wrote:



Theres a strat that lets you re-roll wounds and damage rolls for grav cannons... so.....

That's rerolling 5's turning into the equivalent of rolling 4's to wound, and you're not going to average much more than 2 damage. If you reroll a 2, you're as likely to get a 1 as a 3 so rerolling 1's to get a 2 or a 3 2/3 of the time will add some, but not much. 10 Combi-plas may still come out on top over 4 Grav Cannon. 9 or 8 Combi Plas with a Cap and/or Lt may come out on top but not by much. I think they're both pretty close. Part of it is I'm hesitant to drop a Dev Squad on your side of the board. I want them behind my lines. If it's just one Grav Cannon in a Vet or Tac Squad, maybe but then it's still more about whats with them than the Grav Amp. And it's unlikely to have enough heavy's to benefit from Dev Doctrine. I still think I'd be more inclined to do RapidFire or Assault weapons in a SG/Vet/etc squad and use the trait/stratagem to make them Tactical Doctrine on Turn 1 if possible/necessary.

As a BA player I can already charge turn 1 with 3 units capable of killing a knight in a single turn, especially with the new shock assault rule so I see no need for drop pods at all.

Librarian Dread can move 6 + 12 physic move. Then have 3+2d6 charge with reroll to charge. Thats 21 inch +2d6 with reroll. Can have up to 10 attacks that hit and wound on 2+ with ap4 and flat 3 damage and can fight again if it dies.

Can use 2 stratagems to DS a JP unit t1 and have a 3d6 charge. Vanguard vets or Sanguinary Guard works well with this or a smash captain.

Can also have a 12+d6 move before the first turn on a smash captain or DC unit and then move 12 + 2d6 charge turn 1 for 24 +3d6 movement.

Can quite reliable t1 charge with about 150pts(lib dread or mephiston) + 350pts(full dc unit) +350pts (SG unit) for 850pts of models that wreck anything in melee and that without a single pod. Still BA is quite bad despite this and just shows that marine t1 charges is not a problem at all.

If we could have guard levels of artillery and somehow clear their screens/ds deny before end of t1 movementbit would be a different scenario. But unless you face pure knights any list can easily deny the value of the drop pod. Its not like the old pods you could ds anywhere as long as the model could fit. Having to be 9 inches away is already defeating most of the advantage.

 Insectum7 wrote:
"Insertinator"
"Interdelivenator"
"Interdictor"
"Interderpder"

Or a name suggesting it us the ultimate power in the 40k universe.

"Investor"

the_scotsman wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
"Insertinator"
"Interdelivenator"
"Interdictor"
"Interderpder"

Or a name suggesting it us the ultimate power in the 40k universe.

"Investor"

" a class of space marines which have the role of securing funding and equipment for the order.
Their mark XI combat power suit allows them to dazzle their opponent and gain favourable trade rights.
Additionally all of them are equipped with a wanrant of trade of gulliman, giving them even more power then a regular rogue trader warrant. "

 Carnikang wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

For now.

Then the new Primaris Drop pod arrives, say, the 'Inductinator', and you can suddenly drop in more.

which proably won't occur before the next codex so... *shrugs*

They might release it as a White-Dwarf datasheet, or as a free PDF online so anyone of the SM armies can use it. You never know, we live in a magical time of not knowing what's to come next.

Right. Instead of hyping the Primaris Drop Pod - or just letting Primaris ride in the current drop pod - in the codex they just finished writing last week, they're going to release a new model all on it's lonesome?

I have skimmed the release notes, and they seem, to me at least, to be attempting to throw the OldBois some love with this, not that it will help. From what I read, it can't take Primaris, or Terminators, or anything other than standard troops.

This cuts out Centurions, or anything that would be useful for DSing turn 1 really. Great, you have a squad of vets and maybe an LT. Not gonna lie, that's 80pts for 1/2 units that get within 9" of the enemy, or their back field, that will be dead by turn 2 and likely won't earn their points back.

I may be wrong, but I don't see these flying off the shelves and onto tables. Primaris is king now, and these are attempts to put lipstick on a corpse.

I think GW's plan at the start of 8th was to replace marines with primaris but they have adapted to the market not being complient and just doing as it was told.
They are embracing the idea of having mixed marines apparently the fluff section of the new codex even talks about making mixed chapters due to the utility of old marines.