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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I have skimmed the release notes, and they seem, to me at least, to be attempting to throw the OldBois some love with this, not that it will help. From what I read, it can't take Primaris, or Terminators, or anything other than standard troops.

This cuts out Centurions, or anything that would be useful for DSing turn 1 really. Great, you have a squad of vets and maybe an LT. Not gonna lie, that's 80pts for 1/2 units that get within 9" of the enemy, or their back field, that will be dead by turn 2 and likely won't earn their points back.

I may be wrong, but I don't see these flying off the shelves and onto tables. Primaris is king now, and these are attempts to put lipstick on a corpse.


Drop Pod swarms will, thankfully, not be making a return. Bell of Lost Souls posted the full rule today - it ignores the entire Tactical Restraint rule. That means not only can you come down turn 1, but you also don't need to come down by turn 3. Again, none of this makes Drop Pods crazy broken or anything, but it is a tool in the toolbelt. Taking a single Drop Pod in a list with a squad inside will be good because of what it helps you achieve, and not in how they kill stuff.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
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Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon






 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I have skimmed the release notes, and they seem, to me at least, to be attempting to throw the OldBois some love with this, not that it will help. From what I read, it can't take Primaris, or Terminators, or anything other than standard troops.

This cuts out Centurions, or anything that would be useful for DSing turn 1 really. Great, you have a squad of vets and maybe an LT. Not gonna lie, that's 80pts for 1/2 units that get within 9" of the enemy, or their back field, that will be dead by turn 2 and likely won't earn their points back.

I may be wrong, but I don't see these flying off the shelves and onto tables. Primaris is king now, and these are attempts to put lipstick on a corpse.


Potentially* - - - UM ability to move and fire Heavy Weapons without penalty, +Dev squads with (now cheaper) Grav Cannons, plus Amp Strat for reroll wounds and damage with Grav weapons, plus Devastator Doctrine for -4 AP.

Optionally - plus Chapter Master (reduced CP cost) with improved re-roll ability.

.888 x .555 x 2.5 x 20 = 24.6 (rough numbers, cherub but no Signum bonus) 24ish wounds against Leman Russ targets from just one Devastator squad.


*wait until book/s

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Dakka Veteran






Anything to be said for Multi-Melta Devs in a pod? I've never been much of a fan of Grav.
   
Made in ca
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut






So whats to stop someone from bringing a gigantic amount of drop pods with nobody inside, and making a wall across the opponents board to stop them from moving up on turn one if you go first? This was a friend of mine's fear, and apparently spending 500+ points for basically no firepower isnt enough to sway them otherwise that this will break the meta.

What are some other flaws with this tactic besides that, which stops this from being broken?

14,000 points!
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Insectum7 wrote:
 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I have skimmed the release notes, and they seem, to me at least, to be attempting to throw the OldBois some love with this, not that it will help. From what I read, it can't take Primaris, or Terminators, or anything other than standard troops.

This cuts out Centurions, or anything that would be useful for DSing turn 1 really. Great, you have a squad of vets and maybe an LT. Not gonna lie, that's 80pts for 1/2 units that get within 9" of the enemy, or their back field, that will be dead by turn 2 and likely won't earn their points back.

I may be wrong, but I don't see these flying off the shelves and onto tables. Primaris is king now, and these are attempts to put lipstick on a corpse.


Potentially* - - - UM ability to move and fire Heavy Weapons without penalty, +Dev squads with (now cheaper) Grav Cannons, plus Amp Strat for reroll wounds and damage with Grav weapons, plus Devastator Doctrine for -4 AP.

Which requires Tac Doctrine to be up. Which requires Turn 2, unless there's a stratagem I'm not familiar with.

(And I'd love it if UM had a stratagem that interacted with Doctrines - something like "Gain the benefit of any one doctrine for this turn, regardless of what turn/doctrine you're on".)


*wait until book/s

Ohgodpleasedothis

As for the OP, I'm super glad Pods can arrive T1 again. I wish it were only half, but I'd prefer all over none. That said, I haven't read the book. We'll see.

That, and Primaris - at least some of them, like Intercessors - really should be allowed to Pod in.

Between a Tac points cut, Pods T1, and effectively A2 across the board, it sounds like GW has done a lot to make RealMarines less bad in a lot of ways. I doubt they're top tier now, but they're certainly not as garbage. We'll see how much they changed when the book hits the meta.
   
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Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon






Bharring wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I have skimmed the release notes, and they seem, to me at least, to be attempting to throw the OldBois some love with this, not that it will help. From what I read, it can't take Primaris, or Terminators, or anything other than standard troops.

This cuts out Centurions, or anything that would be useful for DSing turn 1 really. Great, you have a squad of vets and maybe an LT. Not gonna lie, that's 80pts for 1/2 units that get within 9" of the enemy, or their back field, that will be dead by turn 2 and likely won't earn their points back.

I may be wrong, but I don't see these flying off the shelves and onto tables. Primaris is king now, and these are attempts to put lipstick on a corpse.


Potentially* - - - UM ability to move and fire Heavy Weapons without penalty, +Dev squads with (now cheaper) Grav Cannons, plus Amp Strat for reroll wounds and damage with Grav weapons, plus Devastator Doctrine for -4 AP.

Which requires Tac Doctrine to be up. Which requires Turn 2, unless there's a stratagem I'm not familiar with.

(And I'd love it if UM had a stratagem that interacted with Doctrines - something like "Gain the benefit of any one doctrine for this turn, regardless of what turn/doctrine you're on".)


*wait until book/s

Ohgodpleasedothis

As for the OP, I'm super glad Pods can arrive T1 again. I wish it were only half, but I'd prefer all over none. That said, I haven't read the book. We'll see.

That, and Primaris - at least some of them, like Intercessors - really should be allowed to Pod in.

Between a Tac points cut, Pods T1, and effectively A2 across the board, it sounds like GW has done a lot to make RealMarines less bad in a lot of ways. I doubt they're top tier now, but they're certainly not as garbage. We'll see how much they changed when the book hits the meta.


Yeah I getcha, Even with the -1 for moving, if the Cherub is still there you're getting pretty close to the same result. Even closer if the new rerolls mechanic pans out. But yeah, wait and see.

There already looks like there's a Strat that works with Doctrines in the base book, from the writeup.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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8th edition (and previous editions) has just been a game of "here are all these rules. Now, ignore them and follow these rules".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/12 14:26:31


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 vaklor4 wrote:
So whats to stop someone from bringing a gigantic amount of drop pods with nobody inside, and making a wall across the opponents board to stop them from moving up on turn one if you go first? This was a friend of mine's fear, and apparently spending 500+ points for basically no firepower isnt enough to sway them otherwise that this will break the meta.

What are some other flaws with this tactic besides that, which stops this from being broken?


It's not a bug, it's a feature!
Hey, this is a suggestion I've already made to a friend who has a few pods and has only used them twice this edition. With Turn 1 DS, if he goes first, he can indeed use these to create a LoS blocking wall. I think it's very clever, but I don't know if it's good. It's 5pts shy of 200 to do this, and they can be charged and give your opponent almost as much protection as they give to you. So, again, I really don't think that's a broken thing to do. It's a tool in the toolbox. If your friends are worried, remind them that your opponent can't see through the line of drop pods either - line of sight cuts both ways. They may also want to invest in units with some kind of Scouting feature if this becomes an issue (which I wouldn't worry about until it actually does become an issue, since it probably won't). Anything that takes up space before turn 1 will vastly reduce the effectiveness of such a wall.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in ca
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control






 lolman1c wrote:
8th edition (and previous editions) has just been a game of "here are all these rules. Now, ignore them and follow these rules".


Try playing magic the gathering. That game is literally a handful of core rules and them every card has its own rules.
   
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 vaklor4 wrote:
So whats to stop someone from bringing a gigantic amount of drop pods with nobody inside, and making a wall across the opponents board to stop them from moving up on turn one if you go first? This was a friend of mine's fear, and apparently spending 500+ points for basically no firepower isnt enough to sway them otherwise that this will break the meta.

What are some other flaws with this tactic besides that, which stops this from being broken?


my orks would love this. charge the drop pods, keep power claws out of range before the consolidate next turn move. blow up the drop pod during the opponent turn with a power claw, consolidate towards the closest unit and then continue moving forward. its like a speed boost and protection from my opponents shooting for a turn.

10000 points 7000
6000
5000
5000
2000
 
   
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Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon






^I've definitely used pods before to block movement. Imo that's the most egregious thing you can do with them, as the doors have been ruled (iirc) as movement blockers. So if there's some Nids you want to halt for a turn, you can do that. Unfortunately/fortunately, they can charge the pods and "hide", although you can still shoot units beyond them.

It's the sort of thing which isn't game breaking, but is occasionally useful.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
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Not to be a meta purist, but it seems pointless to include buffs to a model no one owns and isn't sold in most stores anymore. This is like coming out and buffing Ratlings to make them S5 rifles.

Speaking of which, did all sniper rifles go to S5, or just marine sniper rifles? Because my command squads might want to go sniper.
   
Made in us
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It's still useless.

I refuse to spend a dime on models that WILL be squatted sooner than later. Let me know when my primaris can ride in them, otherwise, pass.
   
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Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon






 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Not to be a meta purist, but it seems pointless to include buffs to a model no one owns and isn't sold in most stores anymore.

This is a buff for a model that a lot of people own, for an army that even more people own and still enjoy. Plus, that model has probably already had it's costs met, any more Pod sales are probably just gravy for GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Togusa wrote:
It's still useless.

I refuse to spend a dime on models that WILL be squatted sooner than later. Let me know when my primaris can ride in them, otherwise, pass.


Yeah, Primaris will get a super Pod and it will cost like $120. You're welcome to it

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/12 14:52:06


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine






 Insectum7 wrote:
 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Not to be a meta purist, but it seems pointless to include buffs to a model no one owns and isn't sold in most stores anymore.

This is a buff for a model that a lot of people own, for an army that even more people own and still enjoy. Plus, that model has probably already had it's costs met, any more Pod sales are probably just gravy for GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Togusa wrote:
It's still useless.

I refuse to spend a dime on models that WILL be squatted sooner than later. Let me know when my primaris can ride in them, otherwise, pass.


Yeah, Primaris will get a super Pod and it will cost like $120. You're welcome to it


No reason the old pod won't work. The second they change face and allow us to put our models in them, sales will increase.
   
Made in ca
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control






 Insectum7 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
It's still useless.

I refuse to spend a dime on models that WILL be squatted sooner than later. Let me know when my primaris can ride in them, otherwise, pass.


Yeah, Primaris will get a super Pod and it will cost like $120. You're welcome to it


No Primaris won't get a drop pod they'll get a deep striking bunker! I'm totally calling this it'll be a bunker that you don't have get out of unless it's destroyed but you can shoot out of it's windows
   
Made in us
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Breton wrote:
 Argive wrote:



Theres a strat that lets you re-roll wounds and damage rolls for grav cannons... so.....


That's rerolling 5's turning into the equivalent of rolling 4's to wound, and you're not going to average much more than 2 damage. If you reroll a 2, you're as likely to get a 1 as a 3 so rerolling 1's to get a 2 or a 3 2/3 of the time will add some, but not much. 10 Combi-plas may still come out on top over 4 Grav Cannon. 9 or 8 Combi Plas with a Cap and/or Lt may come out on top but not by much. I think they're both pretty close. Part of it is I'm hesitant to drop a Dev Squad on your side of the board. I want them behind my lines. If it's just one Grav Cannon in a Vet or Tac Squad, maybe but then it's still more about whats with them than the Grav Amp. And it's unlikely to have enough heavy's to benefit from Dev Doctrine. I still think I'd be more inclined to do RapidFire or Assault weapons in a SG/Vet/etc squad and use the trait/stratagem to make them Tactical Doctrine on Turn 1 if possible/necessary.


If SG are 13 that's 25 points or 250 for the squad.
5 Devs w/ GC, Cherub, & Combiplas will be 151.

vs T7 3+

20 * .666 * .666 * .833 * 2 = 18.4

12 * .666 * .555 * .833 * 2.3 = 8.5
8 * .833 * .555 * .833 * 2.3 = 7.1 // signum & cherub
2 * .666 * .666 * .833 * 2 = 1.5

SG do 18.4 for 250 points. GC Devs do 17.1 for 151 points and 5 seats left over.

A captain won't bridge that gap.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/12 14:59:52


[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

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Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon






 fraser1191 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
It's still useless.

I refuse to spend a dime on models that WILL be squatted sooner than later. Let me know when my primaris can ride in them, otherwise, pass.


Yeah, Primaris will get a super Pod and it will cost like $120. You're welcome to it


No Primaris won't get a drop pod they'll get a deep striking bunker! I'm totally calling this it'll be a bunker that you don't have get out of unless it's destroyed but you can shoot out of it's windows

Now you're talking! And it'll be covered in little missile barrage pods and heavy stubbers!

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in ca
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control






 Insectum7 wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
It's still useless.

I refuse to spend a dime on models that WILL be squatted sooner than later. Let me know when my primaris can ride in them, otherwise, pass.


Yeah, Primaris will get a super Pod and it will cost like $120. You're welcome to it


No Primaris won't get a drop pod they'll get a deep striking bunker! I'm totally calling this it'll be a bunker that you don't have get out of unless it's destroyed but you can shoot out of it's windows

Now you're talking! And it'll be covered in little missile barrage pods and heavy stubbers!


I feel like fragstorm grenade launchers would be more fitting, and then it'll have a rule so passengers can fire overwatch for extra cheese haha
   
Made in ca
Focused Fire Warrior




Canada

 Argive wrote:
They do... you have to pay the points to take the characters to do thos ethings and or CP for relics... Nobody gets a free ride my friend.
And none of those things are the same as true DS where the units are protected in case you don't go first..

You really under estimate how much of board control advantage it gives you to DS a big ass footprint model plus payload T1 don't you?

1: Not really; most chaos lists these days bring a TS DP even when there not using the crystal. On top of that with how detachments work you have HQ, thats not tax.

2: A relic/ paying cp for something is an entirely different mechanic then paying points. If your pure TS the only two worthwhile relic is the helm(which doesnt count because its job is giving you cp not taxing it) ad the DMC. The relic slot (which you get a free one also) is relatively uncontested (as an opportunity cost) where as points are always a opportunity cost mechanic. On top of that even if you where to do a bizaro cp- point cost conversion a relic would be significantly less then 63(drop pod?) points. It always ruins certain units, tzaangors get outcompeted by deamon troops but they stay strong purely because of the DMC. If the DMC went away GW could actually buff tzaangors in some way and it would be fine; as it stands there a unit that cant be tampered with. By putting the cost of the unit (for what it does) in the unit and not outside forces (relics, psychic powers) it lets you balance the unit as a unit. This is why eldar are super strong even though they have only received nerfs really; there inherent power comes from strong stratagems and guide/doom/jinx etc and not there datasheets (which without before mentioned things are actually quite bad)

3: errrrr no I don't underestimate how powerful it is? I have no idea where you got that idea from. In fact its the contrary why i like its existence. I like doing powerful things on the tabletop and I want everyone to have access to powerful things.Games where every mechanic you utilize feels lukewarm are A) harder to get a diverse enough healthy meta and B) feel bland to play imo.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/08/12 16:46:36


 
   
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Give CSM access to Pods already!

We aren't going to be Primarisized. We are stuck with the **** options you Loyalists complain about (Rhinos and Land Raiders).
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Not to be a meta purist, but it seems pointless to include buffs to a model no one owns and isn't sold in most stores anymore. This is like coming out and buffing Ratlings to make them S5 rifles.


Fezzik... a lot of people own a LOT of drop pods. Maybe you haven't been around long enough, but just last edition, Drop Pod spam was a big deal, and every Marine player I knew owned at least 3 of them, with some people owning, like, 8 of them. Believe me, they're out there. You just haven't seen them used, but many people own these. A better comparison would be to say this is like learning that a newly released TV has a bonus for using its RCA connectors. Everyone has them, but almost no one uses them, and at the moment it's still questionable as to whether or not this change is enough to get people on board with using them.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
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There was even a time when one of the top tier lists was 6 Tac squads in 6 pods, plus more pods in other slots.
   
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My only gripe with the return of pods is the return of the doors up vs doors down. When no one took them it didn’t really matter.

IMO, GW should have ruled doors up/down your choice for appearance and drawing Los thru the pod, but doors don’t block movement. Variable base size is weird and it’s silly that no one can step on a ramp that’s designed to be stepped on.
Edit: ...okay, I think I see the reason, they probably don’t want a case where opponents can set models on your drop pod model without your permission. But game rulewise it’s still nuts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/12 17:30:14


 
   
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 Togusa wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


No reason the old pod won't work. The second they change face and allow us to put our models in them, sales will increase.


If you're genuinely expecting GW to reverse that decision, you're going to be waiting...a long time. (read: forever)

 
   
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NE Ohio, USA

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Give CSM access to Pods already!

We aren't going to be Primarisized. We are stuck with the **** options you Loyalists complain about (Rhinos and Land Raiders).


You have pod options. Go get yourself the ForgeWorld Chaos Index.
   
Made in us
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 Yarium wrote:
 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Not to be a meta purist, but it seems pointless to include buffs to a model no one owns and isn't sold in most stores anymore. This is like coming out and buffing Ratlings to make them S5 rifles.


Fezzik... a lot of people own a LOT of drop pods. Maybe you haven't been around long enough, but just last edition, Drop Pod spam was a big deal, and every Marine player I knew owned at least 3 of them, with some people owning, like, 8 of them. Believe me, they're out there. You just haven't seen them used, but many people own these. A better comparison would be to say this is like learning that a newly released TV has a bonus for using its RCA connectors. Everyone has them, but almost no one uses them, and at the moment it's still questionable as to whether or not this change is enough to get people on board with using them.


I'm willing to admit I'm wrong. But does anyone really expect to break out 3, because that's the rule now, and start turn 1 DSing, I'm guessing Dev squads, into the opponents back field?

Then again, I have zero idea what GW plans with the remaining new releases for codices, there might be a new faction bonus to 2 year old strategies from last edition. But I doubt it. GW seems laser focused on the new toys.
   
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Halifax

A Drop Pod designed with GW's current plastic tech would probably be able to be put together without elastics and the patience of a saint.
   
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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
 Yarium wrote:
 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Not to be a meta purist, but it seems pointless to include buffs to a model no one owns and isn't sold in most stores anymore. This is like coming out and buffing Ratlings to make them S5 rifles.


Fezzik... a lot of people own a LOT of drop pods. Maybe you haven't been around long enough, but just last edition, Drop Pod spam was a big deal, and every Marine player I knew owned at least 3 of them, with some people owning, like, 8 of them. Believe me, they're out there. You just haven't seen them used, but many people own these. A better comparison would be to say this is like learning that a newly released TV has a bonus for using its RCA connectors. Everyone has them, but almost no one uses them, and at the moment it's still questionable as to whether or not this change is enough to get people on board with using them.


I'm willing to admit I'm wrong. But does anyone really expect to break out 3, because that's the rule now, and start turn 1 DSing, I'm guessing Dev squads, into the opponents back field?

Then again, I have zero idea what GW plans with the remaining new releases for codices, there might be a new faction bonus to 2 year old strategies from last edition. But I doubt it. GW seems laser focused on the new toys.


Rule of 3 doesn't apply to dedicated transports, so there's no max Drop Pods (except they can't exceed the number of other units in the same detachment of course - but you presumably want something for them to transport so that shouldn't be an issue).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/12 18:01:33


 
   
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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Not to be a meta purist, but it seems pointless to include buffs to a model no one owns and isn't sold in most stores anymore.


I've owned & used Drop Pods since 2e.
1st it was the Armorcast ones. Then I added 1 of each when Forge World made them (regular, Deathwind - missle & assault cannon, dreadnaught). I added several more when GW introduced the plastic kit.
Over the years I added a few more dreadnought pods.
Last year I completely replaced every Armorcast one in my collection.
And in the next few months? I'm going to add enough FW dreadnought pods so that each of my dreads has their own dedicated ride.
I have a lot of drop pods....

So just because YOU don't use the things, or see them being used, doesn't mean those rules improvements won't be appreciated.
   
 
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